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[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

AmstradHero wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Tsuga C wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Well, I don't think anyone's arguing that there isn't some demand for games like that-- there is a hardcore market. It's just not a market that's really large enough to be profitable for today's triple-A games.

You made what you call a "niche" game and it was commercially (not to mention critically) successful.  So was it really a niche game? 

Excellent question, EoS.

One he most likely won't get an answer to I've no doubt. I honestly thought Gaider's post was a weak sauce excuse for "stripping" the game down in the first place, you don't need to have a 5+ year cycle to make a deep and compelling RPG.

Actually, it's a completely illogical question because it was taken completely out of context. David's quote was referencing gog.com and the games sold there. To turn the question back around onto DAO is inaccurate at best, intentionally deceptive at worst.

You want that game companies should try and produce games with outdated graphics but lots of content and still expect to sell them for the going rate of a new title? (About $100 where I live) You believe they should abandon all the technical advances made in the past decade and recreate games that would be deemed outdated (and a slew of other derogatory words) by the majority of the gaming public?

BioWare make triple-A titles and that carries with it a certain amount of responsibility and a lot of expectations. Triple-A titles have as much technical clout and polish as the developers can manage because that's what gamers and publishers demand from them. If you want something different to this, then go find and support indie RPGs developers that are making the sort of games you seem to want.

Me? I can appreciate both. I love BioWare RPGs because of the awesome story-telling, great characters and the way they keep pushing the RPG genre. That said, I can like games that' are practically inpenetrable to lots of gamers who can't stand "hardcore" RPG traits and (by modern standard) have ugly graphics. However, I recognise that the two are very different beasties.

It's a completely valid question in that David himself brought up DA;O's 5 year dev cycle in the first place. Bioware became as respected as they are today based on well made games and deep mechanics. Its never been an issue before including said mechanics for those in their long time fanbase that like them. So explain to me what's changed to the point that its no longer viable or profittable? I seem to recall both BG1 and 2 selling very well, and NWN and it's expansions sold quite well as well, as did DA:O. 

[YohkoOhno]

Part of it could be the built-in D&D audience that they don't have anymore. While there are Bioware fans who never played PnP D&D, I'm sure Bioware got a lot more gamers that wouldn't have been interested from the D&D license.



Plus development costs have gone up and in this more competitive market, five years could be the kiss of death for a company. I don't think the same game market exists as it did back in the BG days. There's more expectations and more competition.

[AmstradHero]

@Cos Sarah Jinstar

I don't believe David said that DAO was catering to a niche. Nor did he appear to say the BG1, BG2 and NWN were catering to a niche at the time of their release. (However, I wouldn't presume to put words into his mouth)

Consider this hypothetical: If any of those older games (BG1, BG2 or NWN) were released for the first time today exactly as they were upon their initial release date, can you imagine the sort of reception they would get? If you argue that they would be well received and sell as well as DAO if it were released for the first time today, then I'd have to say that you're completely out of touch with the modern gaming market.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 17 août 2010 - 12:40 .

[David Gaider]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
It's a completely valid question in that David himself brought up DA;O's 5 year dev cycle in the first place. Bioware became as respected as they are today based on well made games and deep mechanics. Its never been an issue before including said mechanics for those in their long time fanbase that like them. So explain to me what's changed to the point that its no longer viable or profittable? I seem to recall both BG1 and 2 selling very well, and NWN and it's expansions sold quite well as well, as did DA:O. 

Err... I never said that DAO's development cycle or DAO's profitabilty was the reason we changed anything. Certainly a long development cycle is no road to profitibility, however, but you're taking completely different points I'm making and then demanding to know how they add up to yellow.

I've said all I wish to say on the subject. It doesn't sound like you really need any answers, anyhow.

[Torhagen]

What do you guys think had happened to Bethesda if they had streamlined/simplified Fallout to the extend that Bioware did with ME2 ?

The transformation of Fallout from 2d to 3d caused a lot of changes although Bethesda kept:

An awesome sense of exploration, intense combat, a good story and customisation of your appearance(armour, weapons and much more trough the easy acess for modders) also they kept V.A.T.S. and SPECIAL

[Aesthioseae]

"The old OP is dead, the quality of his posts, along with the initial nicety he represented has diminished wildly since the advent of this thread."



It's a shame, really...



I wonder, has the OP ever held a job that didn't pay enough, so he (or she) decided to apply for a different one?

[Mary Kirby]

Mary: Wandering the hallways of the BioWare office with a cart. Bring out yer dead!

David: Hauling Luke over his shoulder I've got one for you.

Luke: I'm not dead!

Mary: Suspicious. He says he's not dead yet.

David: Well, he will be soon enough.

Luke: I'm getting better!

Mary: I can't take him on the cart if he ain't dead.

Luke: I feel fine.

David: Clubs Luke over the head. There you go.

Mary: I'll be back round next Thursday. Bring out yer dead!


Yeah, yeah. I know I'm not the only one who was thinking it.

Modifié par Mary Kirby, 17 août 2010 - 12:49 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Torhagen wrote...

What do you guys think had happened to Bethesda if they had streamlined/simplified Fallout to the extend that Bioware did with ME2 ?

Like they did with Oblivion from Morrowind

[HTTP 404]

To continue what OP was saying

"The old bioware is dead....but a brand spanking new bioware is here!"

[Clover Rider]

HTTP 404 wrote...

To continue what OP was saying
"The old bioware is dead....but a brand spanking new bioware is here!"

Just like Super Sentai shows .

[Namea]

I myself truly enjoyed Dragon Age: Origins. It was a wonderful game in my opinion. I am not much of a gamer, I will admit that freely so I haven't experienced much of what others are talking about. I have however played a couple of former games. Baldur's gate being one of them. I played that game LAST YEAR more than a decade after its release and I still found it relevant and fun. That to me says that it was a good game. I also played Neverwinter Nights and enjoyed it so much that I gave in to a friend and picked up Dragon Age for the first time when she told me it was made by the same company.



Then of course was the farce that was Neverwinter Nights 2. I will never play that game again. Ever. It was just terrible in so many ways.



I worry about Dragon age 2 because of this, and the idea of no longer having the option of multiple origins or a character that you define annoys me. That was part of what made Origins a game that even I, a non-gamer, could replay 6 times and still look to play it more. However speculation won't solve anything unfortunately, so I suppose we'll simply have to wait until the game is released and hope to whatever deity that gamers worship that it isn't complete ****.

[Laine the Wise]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Mary: Wandering the hallways of the BioWare office with a cart. Bring out yer dead!

David: Hauling Luke over his shoulder I've got one for you.

Luke: I'm not dead!

Mary: Suspicious. He says he's not dead yet.

David: Well, he will be soon enough.

Luke: I'm getting better!

Mary: I can't take him on the cart if he ain't dead.

Luke: I feel fine.

David: Clubs Luke over the head. There you go.

Mary: I'll be back round next Thursday. Bring out yer dead!


Yeah, yeah. I know I'm not the only one who was thinking it.

[Zanderat]

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

Witcher 2 and Fable 3 aren't in the same league, either. They're more "actiony" than RPG-like.

At least for TW2, you are terribly wrong........

[Onyx Jaguar]

Yeah don;t diss the Witcher on this forum. This is the Witcher discussion forum after all. CD Red Projekt are gods

[Khayness]

JoePinasi1989 wrote...

Moral of the day: always look on the bright side of life!

Horrible endings for the sake of horrible endings ftw.

[Aesthioseae]

JoePinasi1989 wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Mary: Wandering the hallways of the BioWare office with a cart. Bring out yer dead!

David: Hauling Luke over his shoulder I've got one for you.

Luke: I'm not dead!

Mary: Suspicious. He says he's not dead yet.

David: Well, he will be soon enough.

Luke: I'm getting better!

Mary: I can't take him on the cart if he ain't dead.

Luke: I feel fine.

David: Clubs Luke over the head. There you go.

Mary: I'll be back round next Thursday. Bring out yer dead!


Yeah, yeah. I know I'm not the only one who was thinking it.

Moral of the day: always look on the bright side of life!

No, no, no... that was Life of Brian.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Should we play confuse a cat in order to bring this full circle?



Or should we go really outside of the box and have our sons kill us to become real pirate man

[Dave of Canada]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Mary: Wandering the hallways of the BioWare office with a cart. Bring out yer dead!

David: Hauling Luke over his shoulder I've got one for you.

Luke: I'm not dead!

Mary: Suspicious. He says he's not dead yet.

David: Well, he will be soon enough.

Luke: I'm getting better!

Mary: I can't take him on the cart if he ain't dead.

Luke: I feel fine.

David: Clubs Luke over the head. There you go.

Mary: I'll be back round next Thursday. Bring out yer dead!

Considering how the bodies aren't infected by the plague, what do you do to get rid of them?

[dislye]

Must admit, I feel sorry for the devs :-((

I understand people's concern but I also understand what David is saying. They're not forgetting about the fans, not at all. Truth be told, makng days now are a LOT more costly than it was in the past. Back then you could probably make a good game for hundreds of thousands, however today you would have to shell out a few million. In order to do that, it is imperative for them to reach out to other gamers. This is their job, it is how they make a living (seems most of you have forgotten that). So they find out ways to reach new playes, but at the same time keep what makes Bioware games so special (story, characters, quality and so on) It is the best of both worlds. They can make great games and profit for doing so. A lot of us are doing things right now to be a success in life. Whether it is college, work, trade school whatever, we are doing something. Now, how many of you would spend all that time building your skill level and WANT to fail? We attend college and different things to be something, to make a profit, a living. Why is it then Bioware has to get threw under the rug for doing so? These are real people with real jobs and families. They could have sold out and started making really crappy games that sold well but they did not. Their game are LOADED with quality. I am a fan true but I am no suck up. This is more than about a game. People's lives depend on this. Most of you barking would totally sell out to make a profit, especially if there was lots of money to be made. The devs did not seel out and should be commended for doing what they are doing, not condemned.

Modifié par dislye, 17 août 2010 - 01:10 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

slimgrin wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Yeah don;t diss the Witcher on this forum. This is the Witcher discussion forum after all. CD Red Projekt are gods

Theycaremoreaboutmakinggoodgamesthanyoudoaboutcommas.

Sall, I'll say. 

Both of these statements are of the highest accuracy that you will find on this forum.