771 réponses à ce sujet

[Icinix]

(Self Censorship in action.)

Modifié par Icinix, 19 août 2010 - 10:33 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

AlanC9 wrote...

Strawman? Hardly, unless I've completely misread you. You seem to be arguing that fighting to protect your nation from a terrible threat is not a believable motivation. This is either ludicrous or despicable, assuming you actually believe it.

Let's say the game is set in 1941 Russia rather than Dragon Age Ferelden, but you're still playing a competent, talented warrior. Would your character really need some sort of personal motivation to join the fight?

Signing off for the night. See you tomorrow, no doubt.

Obviously Hawke diddnt have the motivation to stick around and get killed by darkspawn, seriously how many people do you know that would stick around to face impossible odds dispite having no personal stake in the outcome? A man fighting in an army is much different than 2 men standing alone. It really depends on the type of character you are playing but the "save the world dispite impossible odds and no personal stake" storyline only works if your character is a selfless (and perhaps a bit foolish) hero, for everyone else it is highly unbelievable.

Also another reason why the motivation for stopping the blight is unbelievable, you have only been a grey warden 1 day and yet now you are Ferelden's only hope of stopping the blight? A more believable course of action would be to go for the help of the more experienced wardens in Wiesshaupt fortress as what the hell do you know about the old grey warden treaties and stopping blights? If it werent for Riordan showing up at the end of the game you never would have known that a grey warden needs to deliver the final blow to the archdemon. 

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 19 août 2010 - 02:30 .

[shootist70]

AlanC9 wrote...

Strawman? Hardly, unless I've completely misread you. You seem to be arguing that fighting to protect your nation from a terrible threat is not a believable motivation. This is either ludicrous or despicable, assuming you actually believe it.

Let's say the game is set in 1941 Russia rather than Dragon Age Ferelden, but you're still playing a competent, talented warrior. Would your character really need some sort of personal motivation to join the fight?

Regardless of propaganda, your average 1941 Soviet peasant soldier was probably fighting more to protect his family, his friends, his community, his land and his few possesions than some abstract concept of 'nation' that he had almost no stake in. It's always good to boil dramatic conflict down to these personal, visceral elements than have them hung on some high-blown abstractions.

[SDNcN]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Obviously Hawke diddnt have the motivation to stick around and get
killed by darkspawn, seriously how many people do you know that would
stick around to face impossible odds dispite having no personal stake in
the outcome?

If you are refering to Hawke not staying to defend Ferelden, the new previews suggest he promised Flemeth he would deliever something so she would help his party get out of Lothering safely. It is entirely possible that he wants to help fight off the Darkspawn, but needs to finish Flemeth's quest. Not honoring an agreement made with a thousand year old Abomination isn't the smartest of ideas.

A man fighting in an army is much different than 2 men standing alone.
It really depends on the type of character you are playing, the "save
the world dispite no personal stake" storyline only works if your
character is a selfless (and perhaps a bit foolish) hero.

Well, the Warden did have treaties that promised aid from various nearby factions. The situation was bad, but it wasn't like they were planning to go up against the Darkspawn Horde themselves.

My Cousland character wasn't selfless. In fact he went against the Darkspawn because he believed his brother was dead and wanted to reclaim Highever as its next Teryn.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

SDNcN wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Obviously Hawke diddnt have the motivation to stick around and get
killed by darkspawn, seriously how many people do you know that would
stick around to face impossible odds dispite having no personal stake in
the outcome?

If you are refering to Hawke not staying to defend Ferelden, the new previews suggest he promised Flemeth he would deliever something so she would help his party get out of Lothering safely. It is entirely possible that he wants to help fight off the Darkspawn, but needs to finish Flemeth's quest. Not honoring an agreement made with a thousand year old Abomination isn't the smartest of ideas.

That theory is based heavilly on assumptions however even if he did want to save Ferelden which one do you think is his highest priority, his family or Ferelden?

SDNcN wrote...

A man fighting in an army is much different than 2 men standing alone.
It really depends on the type of character you are playing, the "save
the world dispite no personal stake" storyline only works if your
character is a selfless (and perhaps a bit foolish) hero.

Well, the Warden did have treaties that promised aid from various nearby factions. The situation was bad, but it wasn't like they were planning to go up against the Darkspawn Horde themselves.

My Cousland character wasn't selfless. In fact he went against the Darkspawn because he believed his brother was dead and wanted to reclaim Highever as its next Teryn.

Except those 3 factions (and Arl Eamon) all had problems of their own preventing them from getting an army together and even though there was a huge darkspawn threat looming over their heads the warden still had time to resolve all of their problems with only 4 men and succeed where an entire Dalish tribe, a battalion of templars and the armies of Orzrammar could not.

However that is not the point, the point is what is a more believable motive? Is it fighting for a country you have no stake in or emotional attachment to? Or fighting for survival, revenge and to save a close friend? 

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 19 août 2010 - 12:19 .

[SDNcN]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Except those 3 factions (and Arl Eamon) all had problems of their own preventing them from getting an army together and even though there was a huge darkspawn threat looming over their heads the warden still had time to resolve their problems with only 4 men and succeed where an entire Dalish tribe, a battalion of templars and the armies of Orzrammar could not.

Most any PnP campaign i've been in has had situations were the PCs accomplished something the masses could not. It's why they are the protagonists.

However that is not the point, the point is what is a more believable motive? Is it fighting for a country you have no stake in or emotional attachment to? Or fighting for survival, revenge or to save a close friend? 

Both motives are believable. Patriotism (Mage, Human Noble)? Defending your home (Dwarf Noble, Dwarf Commoner) and family (City Elf, Dwarf Commoner)?

You are implying the PC has no attachment to their land or nation, which may be true for your character, but not for everyone.

Modifié par SDNcN, 19 août 2010 - 12:36 .

[In Exile]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
It is funny, when Bioware first introduced the origins they said that they would explain your characters motivation for being a grey warden and stopping the blight but they really diddnt, sure they explained your characters motivation for becoming a grey warden but it was pretty much the same reason in every origin, survival. However once the battle at Ostagar was over and you wake up in Flemeth's hut you have no reason to continue being a grey warden (of course with the taint inside you would always be a grey warden, however you have no motivation for taking up the role of a grey warden) and trying to build an army other than to stop Alistair's whining and being the big selfless hero and saving the world.

I agree, but would like to extend your point. I think the origins create a counter motivation to not want to be a Grey Warden, depending on your origin, because you have a life to return to. You could argue that a City Elf or a mage might want to Wardens, because that is a step up for them relative to their own lives. Even for a dwarf commoner. But as the betrayed nobles, or the dalish warrior, I think your motivation is much stronger to reclaim your old life. The dalish does not even really have a motivation to save Ferelden, when you think about it.

ETA:

Though to be fair, your motivation to actually stop the blight is strong, because it is an existential threat. There is just zero motivaton to see yourself as a Grey Warden doing it, because you've met 2 Wardens (one of which kind of comes off as a kidnapper and a raving lunatic) and been a Grey Warden for all of 4 minutes.

Modifié par In Exile, 19 août 2010 - 12:44 .

[In Exile]

SDNcN wrote..
You are implying the PC has no attachment to their land or nation, which may be true for your character, but not for everyone.

You can see, though, that ''Do it for patriotism!'' is a poor motive alone, given how idiosyncratic it might be. If there was a personal stake as a well as a patriotic one, like in BG2, you could say the plot was unavoidable, which IMO is a better way to write the game.

[SDNcN]

In Exile wrote...

SDNcN wrote..
You are implying the PC has no attachment to their land or nation, which may be true for your character, but not for everyone.

You can see, though, that ''Do it for patriotism!'' is a poor motive alone, given how idiosyncratic it might be. If there was a personal stake as a well as a patriotic one, like in BG2, you could say the plot was unavoidable, which IMO is a better way to write the game.

Agreed, though I do believe most of the origins do provide enough of basis for players to form their character's personal stake.

Like I noted previously, my Human Noble was there because he believed he could inherit Highever and wanted to protect his land and title. Abandoning Ferelden would have also ment leaving his family's wealth and title for Rendon Howe.

Modifié par SDNcN, 19 août 2010 - 01:02 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

SDNcN wrote...

In Exile wrote...

SDNcN wrote..
You are implying the PC has no attachment to their land or nation, which may be true for your character, but not for everyone.

You can see, though, that ''Do it for patriotism!'' is a poor motive alone, given how idiosyncratic it might be. If there was a personal stake as a well as a patriotic one, like in BG2, you could say the plot was unavoidable, which IMO is a better way to write the game.

Agreed, though I do believe most of the origins do provide enough of basis for players to form their character's personal stake.

Like I noted previously, my Human Noble was there because he believed he could inherit Highever and wanted to protect his land and title. Abandoning Ferelden would have also ment leaving his family's wealth and title for Rendon Howe.

But that doesnt explain why your character would go around gathering allies to stop the blight, it explains why you would want to go after Howe but unless you are planning to use that army to attack Howe head on I dont see how gathering allies to stop the blight helps your character in his goal.

[Everwarden]

wowpwnslol wrote...

zchen wrote...

FO3 is not a RPG in my book. that is all.

This. Failout 3 is a bad shooter, which pretends to be RPG. I played this atrocity for 10 hours before I gave it back to a friend. If I wanted to shoot, I'd play Borderlands. If I wanted an RPG, I will play Dragon Age.

Well, I'll agree that the dialogue in Fallout 3 is rather... horrible, but I find it has one of the most immersive worlds of any RPG I've ever played. Moreso than Oblivion, even (mainly because I can't buy a world with not one child).

[staby-mc-stab-stab]

regardless of whether or not the gray warden was some super good guy out to save the world or if his personal motivations cause him to take the path he does you have to remember Flemeth had just saved him from being butchered he owed her quite the favour and shes not the sort you mess with. Also at that point in the game you are in the middle of the blight in order to escape you need Flemeths aid through Morrigan and from there on out your pretty much committed(im sure you've explored the dialogue where you try and weasel your way out and flemeth puts her foot down with the old wise woman logic).



Sure you can argue that the most spineless characters would try and escape their fate but you are roleplaying someone with qualities which are heroic enough for them to be chosen for the grey wardens and survive their little membership tea party. Such a person fleeing doesn't seem likely after all they've been through.



Though maybe Bioware should have made an ending just for you naysayers where you run away straight after Lothering

[shootist70]

In Exile wrote...


You can see, though, that ''Do it for patriotism!'' is a poor motive alone, given how idiosyncratic it might be. If there was a personal stake as a well as a patriotic one, like in BG2, you could say the plot was unavoidable, which IMO is a better way to write the game.

Agreed. The whole patriotism thing seems out of place in a medieval-style setting anyway. Or maybe that's just the way it comes across to me.

[Vandrayke]

Morroian wrote...

The old Bioware is dead but the new Bioware is alive and using new technology in innovative ways to enhance gameplay, for example the just announced way the VO will actually work. This is not a company that is resting on its laurels trying to just appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Especially because doing that is a horrible business model anyways, even from an uber-cutthroat capitalist perspective.  Brands are extremely valuable and a company won't willingly throw away the long term potential- and therefore value- of a brand just to make a few extra bucks on their next release.  You have to keep brand integrity and go after more market share at the same time.  

[Vandrayke]

shootist70 wrote...

In Exile wrote...


You can see, though, that ''Do it for patriotism!'' is a poor motive alone, given how idiosyncratic it might be. If there was a personal stake as a well as a patriotic one, like in BG2, you could say the plot was unavoidable, which IMO is a better way to write the game.

Agreed. The whole patriotism thing seems out of place in a medieval-style setting anyway. Or maybe that's just the way it comes across to me.

Yeah medieval European wars were mostly fought by professional soldiers, the aristocracy, and mercenaries, while the common people really tried to avoid involvement in most wars.  Of course the whole concept of huge nation-states was largely absent during the period, with feudal monarchies ruling the day.  Revolutionary France was one of the first obvious examples of nationalism at work, and even then, there were soldiers in the army whose primary job was to shoot soldiers who tried to leave the army.  Uplifting! 

[SDNcN]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

SDNcN wrote...

In Exile wrote...

SDNcN wrote..
You are implying the PC has no attachment to their land or nation, which may be true for your character, but not for everyone.

You can see, though, that ''Do it for patriotism!'' is a poor motive alone, given how idiosyncratic it might be. If there was a personal stake as a well as a patriotic one, like in BG2, you could say the plot was unavoidable, which IMO is a better way to write the game.

Agreed, though I do believe most of the origins do provide enough of basis for players to form their character's personal stake.

Like I noted previously, my Human Noble was there because he believed he could inherit Highever and wanted to protect his land and title. Abandoning Ferelden would have also ment leaving his family's wealth and title for Rendon Howe.

But that doesnt explain why your character would go around gathering allies to stop the blight, it explains why you would want to go after Howe but unless you are planning to use that army to attack Howe head on I dont see how gathering allies to stop the blight helps your character in his goal.

Highever is within Ferelden, why would the character want to reclaim it from Howe only to watch it be destroyed shortly after by the Blight?The goals of saving Highever from the effects of the Blight and retaking it from Howe both coincide with one another.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

staby-mc-stab-stab wrote...

regardless of whether or not the gray warden was some super good guy out to save the world or if his personal motivations cause him to take the path he does you have to remember Flemeth had just saved him from being butchered he owed her quite the favour and shes not the sort you mess with. Also at that point in the game you are in the middle of the blight in order to escape you need Flemeths aid through Morrigan and from there on out your pretty much committed(im sure you've explored the dialogue where you try and weasel your way out and flemeth puts her foot down with the old wise woman logic).

Diddnt Flemeth also say to take Morrigan with you and to consider that payment for both your and Alistair's lives? Once we get out of the wilds with Morrigan I would call that our debt settled.

staby-mc-stab-stab wrote...

Sure you can argue that the most spineless characters would try and escape their fate but you are roleplaying someone with qualities which are heroic enough for them to be chosen for the grey wardens and survive their little membership tea party. Such a person fleeing doesn't seem likely after all they've been through.

Though maybe Bioware should have made an ending just for you naysayers where you run away straight after Lothering

Well your character doesnt even have to be a coward or evil to abandon Ferelden to its fate. You could still play a brave and good character however if he is also a realist he would realise that there is no point in throwing his life away against impossible odds, after all your character has only been a grey warden for 1 day what the hell does he know about the grey warden treaties and stopping blights?

[Vandrayke]

I mean you have to assume some sort of motivation for the PC, especially with all the origin stories they had to force to fit the main plot. This is an advantage of punting origins completely; they will be able to design a more cohesive plot to go with Hawke's whole deal. Motivations and all that matter more when they can be specific.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

SDNcN wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

SDNcN wrote...

In Exile wrote...

SDNcN wrote..
You are implying the PC has no attachment to their land or nation, which may be true for your character, but not for everyone.

You can see, though, that ''Do it for patriotism!'' is a poor motive alone, given how idiosyncratic it might be. If there was a personal stake as a well as a patriotic one, like in BG2, you could say the plot was unavoidable, which IMO is a better way to write the game.

Agreed, though I do believe most of the origins do provide enough of basis for players to form their character's personal stake.

Like I noted previously, my Human Noble was there because he believed he could inherit Highever and wanted to protect his land and title. Abandoning Ferelden would have also ment leaving his family's wealth and title for Rendon Howe.

But that doesnt explain why your character would go around gathering allies to stop the blight, it explains why you would want to go after Howe but unless you are planning to use that army to attack Howe head on I dont see how gathering allies to stop the blight helps your character in his goal.

Highever is within Ferelden, why would the character want to reclaim it from Howe only to watch it be destroyed shortly after by the Blight?The goals of saving Highever from the effects of the Blight and retaking it from Howe both coincide with one another.

Let Alistair handle the blight, after all you have only been a grey warden for 1 day what do you know about stopping blights? Hell at that point in time you dont even know if it is a true blight, the only reason you have to believe that it could be a blight is Duncan's gut feeling, and that really isnt much to go on.

No reclaiming Highever is much more important than trying to stop something you know nothing about or whether it is actually as big a threat as Duncan claims.

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 19 août 2010 - 01:53 .

[SDNcN]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...


Well your character doesnt even have to be a coward or evil to abandon Ferelden to its fate. You could still play a brave and good character however if he is also a realist he would realise that there is no point in throwing his life away against impossible odds, after all your character has only been a grey warden for 1 day what the hell does he know about the grey warden treaties and stopping blights?

I remember David Gaider remarking that if Duncan survived Ostagar he would probably have left Ferelden to go get the Orlesian Wardens and Chevaliers. To put that in context, I believe the discussion was about Alistair's view of the Wardens vs. what they really were.

Realistically speaking that would have been the safest bet to end the Blight, though at the expense of everyone in Ferelden.

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Let Alistair handle the blight, after all you have only been a grey warden for 1 day what do you know about stopping blights? Hell at that point in time you dont even know if it is a true blight, the only reason you have to believe that it could be a blight is Duncan's gut feeling, and that really isnt much to go on.

Why exactly are you telling my fictional character what to do?

No reclaiming Highever is much more important than trying to stop something you know nothing about or whether it is actually as big a threat as Duncan claims.

Considering the Horde smashed through the King's army and were moving north unopposed, I think anyone could reasonably assume it was a huge threat.

Modifié par SDNcN, 19 août 2010 - 02:07 .

[shootist70]

Vandrayke wrote...

Yeah medieval European wars were mostly fought by professional soldiers, the aristocracy, and mercenaries, while the common people really tried to avoid involvement in most wars.  Of course the whole concept of huge nation-states was largely absent during the period, with feudal monarchies ruling the day.  Revolutionary France was one of the first obvious examples of nationalism at work, and even then, there were soldiers in the army whose primary job was to shoot soldiers who tried to leave the army.  Uplifting! 

Spot on, your average medieval guy was more likely to surrender to an invader and beg for terms than to fight to the death for some national ideal. One king or another didn't make a whole lot of difference to their day-to-day lives. If surrender wasn't an option (as it isn't against the blight) then being a refugee was generally the only other one. Even nobility and petty nobility only fought out of self-interest - to defend their holdings or for loot and ransom - leading badly paid militias that were liable to turn and run if the going got too tough for the money.

The only time that you see institutionalised fighting for abstract concepts is with religious zeal, and even then the crusaders were just as motivated by wealth as they were by god.

Modifié par shootist70, 19 août 2010 - 02:07 .

[Vandrayke]

shootist70 wrote...

Vandrayke wrote...

Yeah medieval European wars were mostly fought by professional soldiers, the aristocracy, and mercenaries, while the common people really tried to avoid involvement in most wars.  Of course the whole concept of huge nation-states was largely absent during the period, with feudal monarchies ruling the day.  Revolutionary France was one of the first obvious examples of nationalism at work, and even then, there were soldiers in the army whose primary job was to shoot soldiers who tried to leave the army.  Uplifting! 

Spot on, your average medieval guy was more likely to surrender to an invader and beg for terms than to fight to the death for some national ideal. One king or another didn't make a whole lot of difference to their day-to-day lives. If surrender wasn't an option (as it isn't against the blight) then being a refugee was generally the only other one. Even nobility and petty nobility only fought out of self-interest - to defend their holdings or for loot and ransom - leading badly paid militias that were liable to turn and run if the going got too tough for the money.

The only time that you see institutionalised fighting for abstract concepts is with religious zeal, and even then the crusaders were just as motivated by wealth as they were by god.

Absolutely.  Like when the Muslims were a difficult target one time so Venice told the crusaders they could find plenty of loot in Constantinople, so they went and sacked that instead of going and fighting in the Levant.  lol.  

Modifié par Vandrayke, 19 août 2010 - 02:11 .

[In Exile]

shootist70 wrote...
Agreed. The whole patriotism thing seems out of place in a medieval-style setting anyway. Or maybe that's just the way it comes across to me.

When people starting screaming ''For Ferelden!" I was a little confusing, because the feudalism does not really work that way. I read a really interesting paper on the french revolution and European identity that dealt with how a national character formed instead of the prior one that existed and how it re-wrote our perception of history; it was very fascinanting. Essentially the claim was that for the French, prior to the revolution, there were not so much one single French nation as they were individuals with different dominat ties - largely class, church and family.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

SDNcN wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...


Well your character doesnt even have to be a coward or evil to abandon Ferelden to its fate. You could still play a brave and good character however if he is also a realist he would realise that there is no point in throwing his life away against impossible odds, after all your character has only been a grey warden for 1 day what the hell does he know about the grey warden treaties and stopping blights?

I remember David Gaider remarking that if Duncan survived Ostagar he would probably have left Ferelden to go get the Orlesian Wardens and Chevaliers. To put that in context, I believe the discussion was about Alistair's view of the Wardens vs. what they really were.

Realistically speaking that would have been the safest bet to end the Blight, though at the expense of everyone in Ferelden.

That is what I would have done and it is what my character would have done had done if he had been given the option to do so instead of waving some ancient documents and hoping that the factions would jump to my aid. This is the smartest course of action considering that your character has only been a warden for a day and knows nothing about being a grey warden and the fact that he diddnt do it is why I say that I find the story and the motivation for doing the things he did feels kind of rediculous and unbelievable.

Ferelden may fall but I dont see how my character dying with it really helps anyone.

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 19 août 2010 - 02:24 .

[In Exile]

SDNcN wrote...
But that doesnt explain why your character would go around gathering allies to stop the blight, it explains why you would want to go after Howe but unless you are planning to use that army to attack Howe head on I dont see how gathering allies to stop the blight helps your character in his goal.

You can have decent motivations for some of the characters. City Elves might want to save their home, noble dwarves at least may want to protect Orzammar, Mages may want to avoid being labeled apostates. Dwarf commoners might think being a Warden provides a better life than a surface outcast.

Now, obviously not all motivations are compatible with the game. That is just the nature of the plot. There has to be a buy in from the player at some level. Still, there are groups that absolutely make no sense. Like the Dalish. The Dalish Warden was very motivated to become a Grey Warden - not doing so basically meant death. Once you are a Warden, though, you've just gotten your magic health pill, relatively speaking. You have no ties to Ferelden as a country, no ties to the dwarves, possible contempt for the city elves...

Seriously, I have never seen a motivation for a Dalish Warden, personally.