771 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandrayke]

NKKKK wrote...

Hey Alan, you're a moron if you haven't seen how the company has changed since the EA acquisition.

they have bigger budgets, more exposure, and have released excellent games.  When they release crappy games, then I'll care, but every game they've released has been awesome.  

[AlanC9]

Now, that's a fine, reasoned argument, NKKKK. I'm tempted to put in some more sarcasm about how I've seen the light thanks to you, but I'm afraid it would misfire.



If you've got a case to make, make it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vandrayke wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

Hey Alan, you're a moron if you haven't seen how the company has changed since the EA acquisition.

they have bigger budgets, more exposure, and have released excellent games.  When they release crappy games, then I'll care, but every game they've released has been awesome.  

Further skewing NKKKK's point...

I don't think they continue to release excellent games.  I think Mass Effect is the start of a very worrying trend, and Mass Effect itself was a poor game that I didn't enjoy playing.

But, Mass Effect was developed and released entirely before the EA acquisition.  Nothing they're doing now is a new post-EA development.

[John Epler]

Let's keep this civil and avoid personal attacks. We encourage open and frank discussion - calling others morons is not open and frank discussion.

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
You're in a world filled with danger.  Your options are to face it or die.  At no point does the game credibly present the flight option and then deny it to you.  This isn't like the High Road in NWN2 where you're told there's a road but then it doesn't exist.  In BG, you're told nothing, and you can try to stay out of trouble and hide if you want, but eventually trouble finds you.

But that's because of the restricted map. Hiding out in Baldur's Gate itself might be a reasonable idea (though it didn't work out for the guy in the opening cinematic), but you can't reach the city. Beregost and Nashkel are small towns and won't really work. The game doesn't present a trip to Iriaebor  or Amn as an option and then deny you the opportunity to try it, but not mentioning the option is the only difference between BG1 and NWN2 that I can see.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

But that's because of the restricted map. Hiding out in Baldur's Gate itself might be a reasonable idea (though it didn't work out for the guy in the opening cinematic), but you can't reach the city. Beregost and Nashkel are small towns and won't really work. The game doesn't present a trip to Iriaebor  or Amn as an option and then deny you the opportunity to try it, but not mentioning the option is the only difference between BG1 and NWN2 that I can see.

I don't know what Iriaebor is, but isn't the way to Amn blocked by soldiers beause of the threat of war over the iron shortage?

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Further skewing NKKKK's point...

I don't think they continue to release excellent games.  I think Mass Effect is the start of a very worrying trend, and Mass Effect itself was a poor game that I didn't enjoy playing.

But, Mass Effect was developed and released entirely before the EA acquisition.  Nothing they're doing now is a new post-EA development.

Honestly, I thought they sold out around KotOR. But tons of people on this board apparently buy Bio games because of KotOR, so what I think isn't all that important.

[Vandrayke]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

maxernst wrote...

And why does your character suddenly decide to become an adventurer?  Wouldn't a more logical response to somebody trying to kill you be to go somewhere and hide and keep a low profile?

You can do that, though.  Try it.  Just out of Candlekeep, someone has tried to kill you.  You've received instruction on where to go, but those instructions came from a guy who just led you into an ambush.

What do you do?  Get off the road?  Great, off the road the monsters are tougher and you probabaly got killed.  That's realistic, and a pretty short game.  What if you stay on the road and follow Gorion's instructions (despite the ambush)?  Another ambush.

You're in a world filled with danger.  Your options are to face it or die.  At no point does the game credibly present the flight option and then deny it to you.  This isn't like the High Road in NWN2 where you're told there's a road but then it doesn't exist.  In BG, you're told nothing, and you can try to stay out of trouble and hide if you want, but eventually trouble finds you.

Older games wer better for this because you eventually had to venture into town to buy food, and the designers could put plot hooks in the town (knowing you would voluntarily choose to go there).  All this "streamlining" of the game experience has produced geniune design problems.

I don't find that realistic and entertaining.  I find it tedious because the only thing you do to "defeat" that mechanic is save a lot and reload your game so that you get a better die roll the next time you're in combat.  Why even bother with all that?   

When the game came out I loved it, but we're way past that now in my opinion.  Games now do a much better job of exposition, and if our disbelief isn't suspended as effectively, it's because we've grown more demanding of games in general.  

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I don't know what Iriaebor is, but isn't the way to Amn blocked by soldiers beause of the threat of war over the iron shortage?

Iriaebor is a large city to the east of the BG map. Scornubel would also do. There's a trail heading east from Nashkel to these places. Of course, the game doesn't mention this since you can't go there.

I didn't get the impression that Amnish soldiers are blocking travel to Amn when I played; Nashkel is already occupied by Amn during the game. There just doesn't seem to be any path through the southern mountains.

[Vandrayke]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Vandrayke wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

Hey Alan, you're a moron if you haven't seen how the company has changed since the EA acquisition.

they have bigger budgets, more exposure, and have released excellent games.  When they release crappy games, then I'll care, but every game they've released has been awesome.  

Further skewing NKKKK's point...

I don't think they continue to release excellent games.  I think Mass Effect is the start of a very worrying trend, and Mass Effect itself was a poor game that I didn't enjoy playing.

But, Mass Effect was developed and released entirely before the EA acquisition.  Nothing they're doing now is a new post-EA development.

well I guess this is where we agree to disagree because their games are still by far my favorite games made

[Marzillius]

 Wait, what?

OP thought Mass Effect was bad?! Sure, it wasn't a classic RPG, but the Mass Effect trilogy goes very high on my list of the greatest games ever made.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vandrayke wrote...

I don't find that realistic and entertaining.  I find it tedious because the only thing you do to "defeat" that mechanic is save a lot and reload your game so that you get a better die roll the next time you're in combat.  Why even bother with all that? 

I never find roleplaying tedious.  Roleplaying - the making of my characters' decisions - is the fun part of these games.  That's really all I care about.   Everything else is subservient to that.

When the game came out I loved it, but we're way past that now in my opinion.  Games now do a much better job of exposition, and if our disbelief isn't suspended as effectively, it's because we've grown more demanding of games in general.

My preferences haven't changed.  I still go back and play those old games regularly.  Often, after a new game comes out and I've played it, I go back and play and old game to see how the two measure up.

Usually the old game wins.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Marzillius wrote...

OP thought Mass Effect was bad?! Sure, it wasn't a classic RPG, but the Mass Effect trilogy goes very high on my list of the greatest games ever made.

I'm not the OP, but I didn't like ME because I couldn't figure out how to play it.  At no point did I feel like I was able to make Shepard's decisions.

Either the game didn't allow roleplaying, or I was playing it wrong.

[Vandrayke]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Vandrayke wrote...

I don't find that realistic and entertaining.  I find it tedious because the only thing you do to "defeat" that mechanic is save a lot and reload your game so that you get a better die roll the next time you're in combat.  Why even bother with all that? 

I never find roleplaying tedious.  Roleplaying - the making of my characters' decisions - is the fun part of these games.  That's really all I care about.   Everything else is subservient to that.

When the game came out I loved it, but we're way past that now in my opinion.  Games now do a much better job of exposition, and if our disbelief isn't suspended as effectively, it's because we've grown more demanding of games in general.

My preferences haven't changed.  I still go back and play those old games regularly.  Often, after a new game comes out and I've played it, I go back and play and old game to see how the two measure up.

Usually the old game wins.

Hmm.  I like roleplaying quite a bit, but I don't think of stumbling around and reloading games as roleplaying.  My preferences have certainly changed, because I go back to play games I used to love, and now I think, "Man, games used to suck!"  

[Vandrayke]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Marzillius wrote...

OP thought Mass Effect was bad?! Sure, it wasn't a classic RPG, but the Mass Effect trilogy goes very high on my list of the greatest games ever made.

I'm not the OP, but I didn't like ME because I couldn't figure out how to play it.  At no point did I feel like I was able to make Shepard's decisions.

Either the game didn't allow roleplaying, or I was playing it wrong.

I like to roleplay like I'm "choosing someone else's adventure," and not pretend like I'm in the actual adventure.  Could that be a difference?  I loved what I perceived as roleplaying Shepard. 

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Either the game didn't allow roleplaying, or I was playing it wrong.

A little of both, I think. Part of the problem is that Bioware makes different suppositions about what its dialogue achieves that you do, so when they take VO and add a tone, you think this is heresy, whereas they see it as I do (just making the implicit tone explicit). So there is the aversion to VO itself.

But ME also fails to let you be coherent with the paraphrase. I think the paraphrase did not work well in the series. It was better by ME2, but still. There is a design issue involved.

[Kalfear]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Marzillius wrote...

OP thought Mass Effect was bad?! Sure, it wasn't a classic RPG, but the Mass Effect trilogy goes very high on my list of the greatest games ever made.

I'm not the OP, but I didn't like ME because I couldn't figure out how to play it.  At no point did I feel like I was able to make Shepard's decisions.

Either the game didn't allow roleplaying, or I was playing it wrong.

Dont feel bad, ME2 wasnt roleplaying
It was a action/shooter game with a backstory that was very linear and confining!

You didnt feel like you were Roleplaying because you were never in control of the character really.
Oh sure you picked 1 of 3 responces that all ended up the same way in the end and you pressed alot of mouse clicks for the combat, but thats not Role Playing and anyone that thinks it is doesnt understand what a RPG is to begin with.

You were not playing it wrong, Thousands and thousands of players dropped by ME2 website to voice same complaint before packing up game and moving on.

[Vandrayke]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Either the game didn't allow roleplaying, or I was playing it wrong.

A little of both, I think. Part of the problem is that Bioware makes different suppositions about what its dialogue achieves that you do, so when they take VO and add a tone, you think this is heresy, whereas they see it as I do (just making the implicit tone explicit). So there is the aversion to VO itself.

But ME also fails to let you be coherent with the paraphrase. I think the paraphrase did not work well in the series. It was better by ME2, but still. There is a design issue involved.

I think this has a lot to do with it.  I like seeing things made explicit because I feel it brings them to life.  It's one thing to imagine that your character influenced some NPC, but it's another thing entirely to see that NPC actually respond to your character's influence.  In my opinion, when you make every transaction in this process explicit, the whole process in the end is much more vivid and entertaining.  

[rolson00]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Why dead? Because they don't make games you enjoy any longer? Your opinion doesn't equal the death of a company. They've shifted philosophies, if you're not willing to go with that shift then that's fine, you're certainly not alone on that boat. But dead? No, if anything they're more alive then ever.

Yes Bioware is still alive and making money but the point I was trying to make is that they arent the company they were when they made the Baldur's Gate series, the old company died and the new one rose from its ashes. Perhaps I and those that share my point of view are in the minority and the majority of todays gamers prefer shallow action adventure titles, that is what I want to find out from this thread.

fear not did they not prove with DA:O that old school rpgs are still brill? the new games are as good as all the old ones they've done  they just have to keep with the times with DA:O they proved that they are kings of rpg .

[NKKKK]

Good Alan, I'm glad you've seen the light, otherwise 'd thought you'd be in gaming developer heaven with Pandemic, Bioware's former partner in crime and possible lover.

I would have missed you.

Mass Effect was not the start of a worrying trend, Mass Effect 2 was the start of the worrying trend. And even though they released DA after the acquisition, most of it was made while they were still independent.

I hope you people find solace as your favorite gaming company crashes and burns. At least most of the devs will move to Obsidian, where they'll able to make games without the input of Corporate Giants.

Modifié par NKKKK, 19 août 2010 - 09:39 .

[Vandrayke]

NKKKK wrote...

Good Alan, I'm glad you've seen the light, otherwise 'd thought you'd be in gaming developer heaven with Pandemic, Bioware's former partner in crime and possible lover.

I would have missed you.

Mass Effect was not the start of a worrying trend, Mass Effect 2 was the start of the worrying trend. And even though they released DA after the acquisition, most of it was made while they were still independent.

I hope you people find solace as your favorite gaming company crashes and burns. At least most of the devs will move to Obsidian, where they'll able to make games without the input of Corporate Giants.

How do you feel about Alpha Protocol?  I was interested in it but based on all the horrible reviews I haven't checked it out yet.  

[NKKKK]

It doesn't have "horrible" reviews, it has above average reviews. The game was largely an experiment that could use work, but ultimately failed. Still they've done great games before (one could have been better if it wasn't for LucasArts)

Modifié par NKKKK, 19 août 2010 - 10:03 .

[Vandrayke]

NKKKK wrote...

It doesn't have "horrible" reviews, it has above average reviews. The game was largely an experiment that could use work. Still they've done great games before (one could have been better if it wasn't for LucasArts)

lol below 80 is bad in my opinion but I was just curious.  Also, I liked TSL more than KOTOR despite it's unfinished state but don't forget that neither game would have been made at all if it wasn't for LucasArts

[Miobako]

Vandrayke wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

maxernst wrote...

And why does your character suddenly decide to become an adventurer?  Wouldn't a more logical response to somebody trying to kill you be to go somewhere and hide and keep a low profile?

You can do that, though.  Try it.  Just out of Candlekeep, someone has tried to kill you.  You've received instruction on where to go, but those instructions came from a guy who just led you into an ambush.

What do you do?  Get off the road?  Great, off the road the monsters are tougher and you probabaly got killed.  That's realistic, and a pretty short game.  What if you stay on the road and follow Gorion's instructions (despite the ambush)?  Another ambush.

You're in a world filled with danger.  Your options are to face it or die.  At no point does the game credibly present the flight option and then deny it to you.  This isn't like the High Road in NWN2 where you're told there's a road but then it doesn't exist.  In BG, you're told nothing, and you can try to stay out of trouble and hide if you want, but eventually trouble finds you.

Older games wer better for this because you eventually had to venture into town to buy food, and the designers could put plot hooks in the town (knowing you would voluntarily choose to go there).  All this "streamlining" of the game experience has produced geniune design problems.

I don't find that realistic and entertaining.  I find it tedious because the only thing you do to "defeat" that mechanic is save a lot and reload your game so that you get a better die roll the next time you're in combat.  Why even bother with all that?   

When the game came out I loved it, but we're way past that now in my opinion.  Games now do a much better job of exposition, and if our disbelief isn't suspended as effectively, it's because we've grown more demanding of games in general.  

Ahh my friend, but in the adventuring life luck is most important, many fair adventurers would offer a prayer to Lady Luck, Tymora, before they start their journey. And gamewise dices represent that aspect, luck. Nothing better that getting lucky, although it requires some passion to really appreciate the magic hided there

[Biokotor]

Riona45 wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Yes Bioware is still alive and making money but the point I was trying to make is that they arent the company they were when they made the Baldur's Gate series, the old company died and the new one rose from its ashes.

The BG series is at least a decade old.  Of course BioWare isn't the same as it was 10-12 years ago.  And of course BioWare isn't going to make games the same way they did 10-12 years ago.

k obviously alot has changed (graphics/gameplay/etc.) BUT what the true rpg fans really care about is the ROLE PLAYING GAME itself. bioware is taking the roots of rpg's & yanking them off the ground. with someone playing the role of hawke, you'll just be playing the game. the franchize is taking YOUR  ROLE from RPG and giving you a "PG" pretty much.

the idea of a role is to BE the character. with the character reacting with expressions of his own it fills his role, leaving you to just play the game.

an "action/rpg" is an oxymoron... like jumboshrimp. it doesn't make any sense. you can hav a game jam packed full of action where you observe the cool stuff  your character is doing, or you can hav an rpg where you play the ROLE of your character & shape the story to your liking. THEY DO NOT MIX!!!

its like taking a 1st person shoot, switching it to a 3rd person shooter & saying its now 1st/3rd person shooter. just because you ultimately control the character doesn't mean your still getting the 1st person experience.

and that works the same way with these new stupid action/rpgs. just because you are ultimately in control of the character doesn't mean you are getting the experience of the ROLE. making it a PG & not RPG.

the 1st/3rd person shooter metaphor is stupid as hell, but only as stupid as the idea of an "action/rpg"