But what would a fanatic do? In fact, what did Rylock the fanatic who was told by the Commander of the Grey AND the monarch of Ferelden that she can't touch Anders do?jln.francisco wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
In fact, if you announce that you're a mage then he says he's far too busy to worry about chasing down apostates so that goes to show he's not a fanatic, either.
That's an issue of practicality. They're low on resources and probably can't spare the man power to take on a pair of apostates and who ever else might be with them. Like he says, he has more important things to worry about at the moment like keeping Lothering from descending into anarchy.
I hate this character
Débuté par
Kolikeos
, août 16 2010 08:45
#101
Posté 22 août 2010 - 10:20
Sarah1281
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Retour en haut
#102
Posté 22 août 2010 - 10:21
Sesshomaru47
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Sabariel wrote...
Lily. I have absolutely no idea why. I have an irrational hatred for Jowan's girlfriend.
It's because she's a fat cow and led him astray.
I hate Wynne. She's a preacy old bat who should mind her business. I never asked for opinion, now do I want it.
I also hate Irving, simply because he takes forrrreverrrr to say even the simplest sentance. I'm sure there's an onion tied to his belt somewhere.
#103
Guest_jln.francisco_*
Posté 22 août 2010 - 10:28
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Sarah1281 wrote...
But what would a fanatic do? In fact, what did Rylock the fanatic who was told by the Commander of the Grey AND the monarch of Ferelden that she can't touch Anders do?jln.francisco wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
In fact, if you announce that you're a mage then he says he's far too busy to worry about chasing down apostates so that goes to show he's not a fanatic, either.
That's an issue of practicality. They're low on resources and probably can't spare the man power to take on a pair of apostates and who ever else might be with them. Like he says, he has more important things to worry about at the moment like keeping Lothering from descending into anarchy.
Haven't played Awakening (unlikely to) but a fanatic does not have to mean completely irrational. It's just an extreme devotion. The case you describe sounds like someone taking their job to seriously whereas the Templars in Lothering are just prioritizing threats. Go after the apostate and sacrifice soldiers desperately needed to keep the town from falling apart or let him pass. He chose to deal with the immediate and clearer threat.
#104
Posté 22 août 2010 - 10:29
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Yes, how dare she force him to take up blood magic before they even met and get caught doing that thus the need for escape in the origin despite her having no idea he's a blood mage!It's because she's a fat cow and led him astray.
#105
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Posté 22 août 2010 - 10:41
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Sarah1281 wrote...
Yes, how dare she force him to take up blood magic before they even met and get caught doing that thus the need for escape in the origin despite her having no idea he's a blood mage!It's because she's a fat cow and led him astray.
I feel like I'm about to walk into a minefield....
Lily isn't exactly a positive influence on Jowan. Jowan seems like a genuinely curious and witty individual fascinated by magic and history judging from the few comments he makes during the mage origin. Lily seems like the type that while she would never be as upfront about it as Keili (i think her name is. the emo mage girl) would agree with most of what she says. Whenever she talks about magic/religion she sounds very much like someone repeating what they've been told a million times by a sunday school teacher and she even goes on to say 'those born with the curse of magic.' (paraphrasing)
I don't hate her but really wish Jowan had found himself someone else.
#106
Posté 22 août 2010 - 10:42
Eudaemonium
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I always felt sorry for Lily myself. She fell in love with a stupid man and wanted to protect him, that was really her only crime. She didn't know Jowan was a blood mage. He doesn't exactly scream "I'm a blood mage" to passers by, he's pretty innocuous.
EDIT: That said, I do think she was perhaps *not* the best partner ideologically for a mage. Though she is a Chantry Initiate, so its kinda expected.
EDIT: That said, I do think she was perhaps *not* the best partner ideologically for a mage. Though she is a Chantry Initiate, so its kinda expected.
Modifié par Eudaemonium, 22 août 2010 - 10:44 .
#107
Guest_jln.francisco_*
Posté 22 août 2010 - 10:53
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Eudaemonium wrote...
I always felt sorry for Lily myself. She fell in love with a stupid man and wanted to protect him, that was really her only crime. She didn't know Jowan was a blood mage. He doesn't exactly scream "I'm a blood mage" to passers by, he's pretty innocuous.
EDIT: That said, I do think she was perhaps *not* the best partner ideologically for a mage. Though she is a Chantry Initiate, so its kinda expected.
Her motives always seemed selfish to me, no different then Jowan's. As a Sister she would be forbidden from sex and marriage (from what I understand) and wanted very much to enjoy the outside world. She felt she'd be stuck in a 'prison' much like Jowan did and wanted desperately to get away from it. It doesn't help that neither could possibly have much experience with relationships and seem to ignore you every time you tell them this is incredibly stupid.
I think where Jowan and Lily differ is their loyalty to the Chantry's teachings. Lily seems to have taken it all to heart whereas Jowan doesn't take it to seriously.
#108
Posté 22 août 2010 - 11:04
KnightofPhoenix
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Sesshomaru47 wrote...
Sabariel wrote...
Lily. I have absolutely no idea why. I have an irrational hatred for Jowan's girlfriend.
It's because she's a fat cow and led him astray.
The only stupid thing Lily did was fall in love with an idiot, with an annoying voice.
#109
Guest_jln.francisco_*
Posté 22 août 2010 - 11:09
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Sesshomaru47 wrote...
Sabariel wrote...
Lily. I have absolutely no idea why. I have an irrational hatred for Jowan's girlfriend.
It's because she's a fat cow and led him astray.
The only stupid thing Lily did was fall in love with an idiot, with an annoying voice.
No one forced her to go along with Jowan and she got just as much out of it as he did.
#110
Posté 22 août 2010 - 11:17
KnightofPhoenix
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jln.francisco wrote...
No one forced her to go along with Jowan and she got just as much out of it as he did.
Of course not.
But he knew about her beliefs and how she resents blood magic and he lied to her and studied it anyways.
She didn't hide anythign from him and he hid the most important thing.
She was the victim and not him.
#111
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Posté 22 août 2010 - 11:25
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
jln.francisco wrote...
No one forced her to go along with Jowan and she got just as much out of it as he did.
Of course not.
But he knew about her beliefs and how she resents blood magic and he lied to her and studied it anyways.
She didn't hide anythign from him and he hid the most important thing.
She was the victim and not him.
She jumped through a lot of hoops to work out a means of getting into the phylactery chamber and went so far as to seek the help of a harrowed mage. She had every oppurtunity to stop and refused each and she had every indication this was likely to spiral out of control but pressed forward.
Lily was not a victim. There was no one coercing her into anything. If Jowan had some how behaved like an abusive partner or she weren't in complete control of herself the entire time, I'd agree with you. But Lily knew what she was doing and what she was getting in to.
#112
Posté 22 août 2010 - 11:27
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Lily thought she was helping her innocent, victimized boyfriend who was in no way, shape, or form a blood mage but just lacked the power to pass a Harrowing escape a horrible fate. The part that makes her a victim is that Jowan was guilty of exactly what he was being charged with and had she known, she never would have had anything more to do with him let alone helped him.jln.francisco wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
jln.francisco wrote...
No one forced her to go along with Jowan and she got just as much out of it as he did.
Of course not.
But he knew about her beliefs and how she resents blood magic and he lied to her and studied it anyways.
She didn't hide anythign from him and he hid the most important thing.
She was the victim and not him.
She jumped through a lot of hoops to work out a means of getting into the phylactery chamber and went so far as to seek the help of a harrowed mage. She had every oppurtunity to stop and refused each and she had every indication this was likely to spiral out of control but pressed forward.
Lily was not a victim. There was no one coercing her into anything. If Jowan had some how behaved like an abusive partner or she weren't in complete control of herself the entire time, I'd agree with you. But Lily knew what she was doing and what she was getting in to.
#113
Posté 22 août 2010 - 11:28
KnightofPhoenix
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No, she never knew that Jowan was a maleficarum and had she known, I don't think she would have done what she did. She wanted to free Jowan becauseshe thought he was innocent and it turned out he wasn't.
She is not innocent in the Chantry's eyes obviously. But looking at Jowan and Lily as a couple, my sympathies go to Lily who was lied to.
She is not innocent in the Chantry's eyes obviously. But looking at Jowan and Lily as a couple, my sympathies go to Lily who was lied to.
#114
Guest_jln.francisco_*
Posté 22 août 2010 - 11:44
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Sarah1281 wrote...
Lily thought she was helping her innocent, victimized boyfriend who was in no way, shape, or form a blood mage but just lacked the power to pass a Harrowing escape a horrible fate. The part that makes her a victim is that Jowan was guilty of exactly what he was being charged with and had she known, she never would have had anything more to do with him let alone helped him.jln.francisco wrote...
She jumped through a lot of hoops to work out a means of getting into the phylactery chamber and went so far as to seek the help of a harrowed mage. She had every oppurtunity to stop and refused each and she had every indication this was likely to spiral out of control but pressed forward.
Lily was not a victim. There was no one coercing her into anything. If Jowan had some how behaved like an abusive partner or she weren't in complete control of herself the entire time, I'd agree with you. But Lily knew what she was doing and what she was getting in to.
But she didn't want Jowan to escape. She wanted to escape with Jowan and move to a farm and have a bunch of kids or whatever. Her intentions were not selfless. She didn't do what she did for Jowan, she did it to realize some dream she had for the future. And let's not forget she was the driving force behind the entire plan, being the one who figured out how to get past all the early obstacles.
Lily was foolish and naive (I often wonder where Jowan find the time for blood magic and how neither of the people closest to him learned his secret) but she was not taken advantage of.
#115
Posté 22 août 2010 - 11:48
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She doesn't have to be selfless to be taken advantage of (Jowan took advantage of her desire to help him and to get away with him and didn't tell her about the blood magic) and a victim. Since when do victims have to be saints anyway?
#116
Posté 22 août 2010 - 11:51
KnightofPhoenix
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Yea I have no idea how not being selfless means you are not a victim. It's irrelevent. The fact remains she was misled by Jowan into thinking he was innocent, when he wasn't (per her beliefs). Had she known, she would not have done what she did.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 août 2010 - 11:53 .
#117
Posté 22 août 2010 - 11:53
Giggles_Manically
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I really felt bad for Lily, especially after reading the Aeonar codex.
#118
Guest_jln.francisco_*
Posté 23 août 2010 - 12:04
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Sarah1281 wrote...
She doesn't have to be selfless to be taken advantage of (Jowan took advantage of her desire to help him and to get away with him and didn't tell her about the blood magic) and a victim. Since when do victims have to be saints anyway?
They don't but a victim needs to have been victimized and Lily was not. Given her position of control over the situation and as the driving force behind the plan to escape Lily is every bit as guilty as Jowan.
I may not like Gregoir but he was right in faulting both the mage Warden and Lily in Jowan's escape. Both acted of their own free will, knowing what the charges were and just how many rules they'd be breaking in the process. Neither were coerced or made to do anything and while both might feel betrayed, Jowan didn't take advantage of either.
#119
Guest_jln.francisco_*
Posté 23 août 2010 - 12:07
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yea I have no idea how not being selfless means you are not a victim. It's irrelevent. The fact remains she was misled by Jowan into thinking he was innocent, when he wasn't (per her beliefs). Had she known, she would not have done what she did.
It matters as it changes the narrative if Lily was profiting from the escape as much as Jowan and was acting out to achieve this profit. It goes from helpless victim to active conspirator.
And I never said you had to be a saint to be a victim.
#120
Guest_jln.francisco_*
Posté 23 août 2010 - 12:09
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Giggles_Manically wrote...
I really felt bad for Lily, especially after reading the Aeonar codex.
It's a sad situation and she really didn't deserve to be sent there. You have to wonder about just how terrible the indoctrination has to be for someone to willingly subject themselves to something like that.
#121
Posté 23 août 2010 - 01:15
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Sarah1281 wrote...
In fact, if you announce that you're a mage then he says he's far too busy to worry about chasing down apostates so that goes to show he's not a fanatic, either.
I did that on my last play-through, and Morrigan said "Me too!" laughingly from behind me. The guy looked like he wanted to stab himself in eye. I replayed it a few times, giggling away.
#122
Posté 23 août 2010 - 01:17
Giggles_Manically
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Which scene is this?Celuwen wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
In fact, if you announce that you're a mage then he says he's far too busy to worry about chasing down apostates so that goes to show he's not a fanatic, either.
I did that on my last play-through, and Morrigan said "Me too!" laughingly from behind me. The guy looked like he wanted to stab himself in eye. I replayed it a few times, giggling away.
#123
Posté 23 août 2010 - 01:18
Sarah1281
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At the Lothering Chantry when you talk to Ser Bryant.Giggles_Manically wrote...
Which scene is this?Celuwen wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
In fact, if you announce that you're a mage then he says he's far too busy to worry about chasing down apostates so that goes to show he's not a fanatic, either.
I did that on my last play-through, and Morrigan said "Me too!" laughingly from behind me. The guy looked like he wanted to stab himself in eye. I replayed it a few times, giggling away.
#124
Posté 23 août 2010 - 01:20
Giggles_Manically
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Wow talk about making a bad day worse.Sarah1281 wrote...
At the Lothering Chantry when you talk to Ser Bryant.Giggles_Manically wrote...
Which scene is this?Celuwen wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
In fact, if you announce that you're a mage then he says he's far too busy to worry about chasing down apostates so that goes to show he's not a fanatic, either.
I did that on my last play-through, and Morrigan said "Me too!" laughingly from behind me. The guy looked like he wanted to stab himself in eye. I replayed it a few times, giggling away.
#125
Posté 23 août 2010 - 01:32
Celuwen
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Sarah1281 wrote...
Lily thought she was helping her innocent, victimized boyfriend who was in no way, shape, or form a blood mage but just lacked the power to pass a Harrowing escape a horrible fate. The part that makes her a victim is that Jowan was guilty of exactly what he was being charged with and had she known, she never would have had anything more to do with him let alone helped him.jln.francisco wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
jln.francisco wrote...
No one forced her to go along with Jowan and she got just as much out of it as he did.
Of course not.
But he knew about her beliefs and how she resents blood magic and he lied to her and studied it anyways.
She didn't hide anythign from him and he hid the most important thing.
She was the victim and not him.
She jumped through a lot of hoops to work out a means of getting into the phylactery chamber and went so far as to seek the help of a harrowed mage. She had every oppurtunity to stop and refused each and she had every indication this was likely to spiral out of control but pressed forward.
Lily was not a victim. There was no one coercing her into anything. If Jowan had some how behaved like an abusive partner or she weren't in complete control of herself the entire time, I'd agree with you. But Lily knew what she was doing and what she was getting in to.
Except Jowan wasn't a blood mage until he was trying to figure out how to get himself and Lily out of the tower. He says that he learnt it all for her. I'm not sure if that's true, but from the conversations he had with PC, it does seem Jowan and Lily had been together long enough for him to study blood magic. PC even says at one point s/he thought Jowan had been making up said girlfriend.
I don't think Lily was a victim, nor was Jowan really. It was a mess of decisions made by a young couple in the midst of first love, while trapped in a place where it could never really happen. Both ultimately paid the price, though I do think Lily got the worst of it.
