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[Sable Rhapsody]

 So this is a point I've made before, but I think it bears repeating.  Simply put, DA:O is the special child.  It is the odd one out in terms of origin customization, and the influence of origins on plot/character development.  It shares less in common with so-called "old school" beloved RPGs than DA2 does.  Just to break it down:

Baldur's Gate series:

• Customize: race, gender, appearance, class
• Customization's bearing on roleplaying: none except romance
• Background: Set.  You're the Bhaalspawn

NWN OC: 

• Customize: race, gender, appearance, class
• Customization's bearing on roleplaying: none except romance
• Background: Open, except that you randomly turned up in Neverwinter one day

NWN expansions: 

• Customize: race, gender, appearance, class
• Customization's bearing roleplaying: none except romance
• Background: Set.  You're the academy student

Fallout 1 and 2:

• Customize: gender, appearance (to a minor degree), skills
• Customization's bearing on roleplaying: none
• Background: Set.  You're the Vault Dweller.

Planescape: Torment:

• Customize: None upon character creation, class later on
• Customization's bearing on roleplaying: None
• Background: Set.  You're the Nameless One

KOTOR:

• Customize: gender, appearance, class
• Customization's bearing on roleplaying: none except romance
• Background: Set.  You're Revan.  (Please, no whining about spoilers.  This is like freaking Rosebud around here.)

KOTOR2:

• Customize: gender, appearance, class
• Customization's bearing on roleplaying: none except romance
• Background: Set.  You're the Jedi Exile.

NWN2:

• Customize: race, gender, appearance, class
• Customization's bearing on the game: none except romance
• Background: Set.  You're the Knight-Captain.

DA2:

• Customize: gender, appearance, class
• Customization's bearing on the game: Unknown
• Background: Set.  You're Hawke

See any similarities?  Now compare these games with DA:O.

DA:O

• Customize: race, gender, appearance, class
• Customization's bearing on the game: Romance, dialogue options, flavor text, and roleplaying "feel" of certain quests.  Still very little impact on overall plot.
• Background: Semi set.  You come from one of six origins, but at the end of the day, you're still the gorram Warden.

I'm not saying one system is better than the other.  My point is simply that we are spoilt for choice after the six origins of DA:O that did have some roleplaying value.  It is not incorrect to prefer one system to the other.  I loved both PST and DA:O, and they're pretty different in terms of customization.  But saying that going back to a relatively set origins and taking away race choice is a betrayal or somesuch of well-loved older RPGs is downright wrong.  Most older RPGs did just that.

[Faust1979]

It doesn't bother me really because I have found that the origins didn't have much to do at all with the main game they all pretty much merge into the same character after the origins section is over.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Faust1979 wrote...

It doesn't bother me really because I have found that the origins didn't have much to do at all with the main game they all pretty much merge into the same character after the origins section is over.

Exactly.  There's some RP flavor to it--which I love and wish there was more of, don't get me wrong--but ultimately it doesn't really matter for the main plot whether your Warden is a cantankerous dwarven duster or a prim and proper human noble.

[Russalka]

Excellent point.
I do wonder and hope how and if they are going to address this. Are they going to make the game with enough nuances that the replayability stays? Are there some things that can make Hawke be distinguished in different games? Can we roleplay our very own Hawke?

I imagine that being a mage could impact the storyline quite a bit. Perhaps there is something in the prologue of the game, or something like in NWN2 (being a wizard's apprentice or town militia, BUT MORE BETTER AND WITH MORE EFFECT) , that could somewhat emulate the Origin charm?

Modifié par Russalka, 16 août 2010 - 09:16 .

[Dave of Canada]

Even with Origins, some of them would be completely ignored in the main plot while some of them are filled with juicy details. For example, the Cousland origin had the entire ending with the Landsmeet have specific dialogue and it made you feel a lot more involved while the Dalish Elf had nothing that made them stand out. Maybe if the clan that was attacked was their clan, yet it wasn't and the only direct link was Shriek-Tamlen.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Even with Origins, some of them would be completely ignored in the main plot while some of them are filled with juicy details. For example, the Cousland origin had the entire ending with the Landsmeet have specific dialogue and it made you feel a lot more involved while the Dalish Elf had nothing that made them stand out. Maybe if the clan that was attacked was their clan, yet it wasn't and the only direct link was Shriek-Tamlen.

Yeah, I always felt like the Dalish got hosed.  The dwarves got their return to Orzammar, Cousland arguably got the most in-game roleplaying support, the City Elf got the return to the Alienage, and the mage got the return to the Circle.  Not to mention quite a few "I'm a mage.  Why don't you rephrase that before I LIGHT YOUR CHEST ON FIRE" intimidate options.  Funsies.

[Schuback]

Okay... how much are they paying you now? Man, I kid. We're good.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Trepe Trooper wrote...

Oh and for the record, KotOR 2 was made by Obsidian, not Bioware, hence it was a slimy piece of worm-ridden filth.

Hate for Obsidian, eh?  Same guys working at Obsidian were on board with Black Isle for the BG games and PS:T.  And Mask of the Betrayer was a pretty nice piece of work, though I do agree that KOTOR2 and the original NWN2 had oodles of issues.  But I know I included a few non-BioWare games.  I did it to make a point that set origin spans the RP genre, not just BioWare's work.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 16 août 2010 - 09:26 .

[Apollo Starflare]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Even with Origins, some of them would be completely ignored in the main plot while some of them are filled with juicy details. For example, the Cousland origin had the entire ending with the Landsmeet have specific dialogue and it made you feel a lot more involved while the Dalish Elf had nothing that made them stand out. Maybe if the clan that was attacked was their clan, yet it wasn't and the only direct link was Shriek-Tamlen.

I wondered what happened to that guy, the Dalish origin really didn't grab me as much as the others. Which is a shame because I think it had great potential what with tying into the Elven side of the DA mythos more, something we don't actually see that much of.

Personally I'd love to see them come back with DA3 and bring back the origins concept, however it isn't necessary in order to make it a great game. I have mixed feelings in regards to replayability, on the one hand the origins of DAO were a big incentive to replay; however once you were past the origin it was mostly the same game (as has been pointed out, with the odd exception). As such I don't see why DA2 can't be almost as replayable, just for different reasons. If they can put in some good differences class wise (how people react to you if you are a mage etc.) then that will help. Personally I found the ME games very replayable despite them being all about Shepard and being otherwise more restrictive than DAO so I'm not too worried.

[Russalka]

I still feel that they are going to do at least something like they did in ME.

Spacer or colonist or war hero or whatever.



I think this has become their overall niche.

[Dave of Canada]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

I wondered what happened to that guy, the Dalish origin really didn't grab me as much as the others.

When the Shrieks attack the camp, Tamlen is among them and hides in the corner. When you approach him, he's like "RAWR" and you can tell him you love him (female) or whatever. He begs for you to kill him or says he loves you too (if you said you love him) and then attacks the group. Alistair goes "who the **** was that guy?" and that's it.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Russalka wrote...

I still feel that they are going to do at least something like they did in ME.
Spacer or colonist or war hero or whatever.

I think this has become their overall niche.

I didn't include ME since a small but vocal minority on the DA forums seem to think ME was BioWare pouring battery acid down their throats or some equally dramatic travesty, but ME did have some backstory customization.  

As for how to customize Hawke's story, I worry a bit about preferential treatment for mage Hawkes.  True, a mage sticks out more than a warrior or a rogue in lore, but there has to be some equality for players who don't play mages.  So if mages get special dialogue/backstory options, so too should rogues and warriors.  Rogues might be easier--PS:T's ability to snap a guy's neck mid-cry given high enough dex certainly comes to mind.  Warriors...I dunno.  How do you make a warrior special?  Conversation options based on punching?

[Dave of Canada]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

As for how to customize Hawke's story, I worry a bit about preferential treatment for mage Hawkes.  True, a mage sticks out more than a warrior or a rogue in lore, but there has to be some equality for players who don't play mages.  So if mages get special dialogue/backstory options, so too should rogues and warriors.  Rogues might be easier--PS:T's ability to snap a guy's neck mid-cry given high enough dex certainly comes to mind.  Warriors...I dunno.  How do you make a warrior special?  Conversation options based on punching?

Rogues can have the entire Slim Couldry sort of quest thing, regarded as a thief / bandit by the people. Warriors can have.. umm..

[Russalka]

Warriors can get militia duty or templar fun or doing farmwork.

[Danjaru]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

As for how to customize Hawke's story, I worry a bit about preferential treatment for mage Hawkes.  True, a mage sticks out more than a warrior or a rogue in lore, but there has to be some equality for players who don't play mages.  So if mages get special dialogue/backstory options, so too should rogues and warriors.  Rogues might be easier--PS:T's ability to snap a guy's neck mid-cry given high enough dex certainly comes to mind.  Warriors...I dunno.  How do you make a warrior special?  Conversation options based on punching?

Rogues can have the entire Slim Couldry sort of quest thing, regarded as a thief / bandit by the people. Warriors can have.. umm..

Warriors/mages can have do those too. Just invest 1 point in pickpocketting, then use it on someone. Pick up the quest from Slim, and bring Leliana or Zevran along for the quests (for level 4 pickpocketing and lockpicking). So if they have something similar in DA2, and use the same leveling system, I'm betting you can do something similar there too

Modifié par Danjaru, 16 août 2010 - 09:43 .

[Divine Justinia V]

Faust1979 wrote...

It doesn't bother me really because I have found that the origins didn't have much to do at all with the main game they all pretty much merge into the same character after the origins section is over.

Exactly. The only thing that it affected throughout the game was how certain people would treat you. Other than that, as you said, they merge into the same character.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Russalka wrote...

Warriors can get militia duty or templar fun or doing farmwork.

*snerk* At the farmwork.  The rest is pretty cool, especially if Hawke was working on evacuating Lothering before the Blight made a bite-sized snack out of it.

Though personally, I'll be happy as a clam if I get more mage intimidate opportunities since I almost exclusively play mages.  I am almost incapable of playing classes that cannot set people's trousers on fire with  the wave of a hand.

[jackkel dragon]

Warriors could join some sort of knightly order or something. That would leave us with:



Warrior: Order of Knights

Rogue: Theif/Bandit

Mage: ...What do you think?

[Dave of Canada]

Danjaru wrote...

Warriors/mages can have do those too. Just invest 1 point in pickpocketting, then use it on someone. Pick up the quest from Slim, and bring Leliana or Zevran along for the quests (for level 4 pickpocketing and lockpicking). So if they have something similar in DA2, and use the same leveling system, I'm betting you can do something similar there too

Yeah but the quests felt built for Rogue PCs, creating a quest chain like that for DA2 that focuses on stealth instead of blind rushing and killing people would be a lot of fun. I still say the Dark Brotherhood / Thieve's Guild parts of Oblivion were the best parts of the game.

[Saibh]

Fallout 3:

• Customize: gender, appearance, skills
• Customization's bearing on roleplaying: Black Widow/Lady Killer skill
• Background: Set. You're the Lone Wanderer.

I thought this was worthy being added.

Modifié par Saibh, 17 février 2013 - 08:36 .

[Gilsa]

I'll miss my dwarves, but I'm fine with playing as Hawke for DA2. There were only two things from DAO that I hoped to see in DA2 (dwarf PC and/or  DAO token love interest), but since neither will apply, it cuts down on the anticipation. I don't have that one big thing that connects to DAO to make me super excited for the sequel. (In Mass Effect, Commander Shepard is the common link between 3 ME games, for example.) Unless, of course, they announce a dwarf love interest in DA2 -- then EVERYTHING CHANGES.

<3

Modifié par Gilsa, 16 août 2010 - 10:23 .

[Saibh]

Trepe Trooper wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Trepe Trooper wrote...

Oh and for the record, KotOR 2 was made by Obsidian, not Bioware, hence it was a slimy piece of worm-ridden filth.

Hate for Obsidian, eh?  Same guys working at Obsidian were on board with Black Isle for the BG games and PS:T.  And Mask of the Betrayer was a pretty nice piece of work, though I do agree that KOTOR2 and the original NWN2 had oodles of issues.  But I know I included a few non-BioWare games.  I did it to make a point that set origin spans the RP genre, not just BioWare's work.

Sorry about that. And no, I don't like Obsidian. KotOR 1 was the first game I played that let the player choose what would happen to their character and I loved the game because of it. Then Obsidian comes in a couple of years later and practically takes that character away from me (and everyone else) and then presumes to tell me what happened to Revan. Granted, I'm a bit possesive of my own characters, but I still think it would have been better if they'd just left everything in the first game alone and made it completely seperate from the original.
Completely off-topic, Vampire-Bloodlines was a good RPG that had people reacting differently to you based on which group you were part of.

To be absolutely fair, BioWare doesn't own Star Wars. No matter what, they were going to tell you what happened to Revan, since he was such a popular character--still is. Obsidian at least had the decency to move him somewhere where you couldn't see if he was acting OOC or not.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Saibh wrote...

Fallout 3:


* Customize: gender, appearance, skills

* Customization's bearing on roleplaying: Black Widow/Lady Killer skill

* Background: Set. You're the Lone Wanderer.

I thought this was worthy being added.

Thanks.  I haven't played Fallout 3, so I wouldn't know.

As for the whole Revan/Exile thing, hopefully DA2 will be better about that since it is still BioWare's own IP.  And your Warden's actions are going to be imported into DA2, so that's a start.  I can be a bit possessive of my characters too, but I felt like Revan was such a Marty Stu/Mary Sue between KOTOR1 and Kreia's fangirling in KOTOR2 that I don't bother with anything other than the canon Revan.