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[MKDAWUSS]

OK, so let me get this straight - the First Warden sent Loghain to Orlais due to COI and interfering with Ferelden's affairs if he stayed, but none of that would be an issue in Orlais? I don't see much preventing him from meddling in Orlesian politics and whatnot - it's hardly a neutral relationship. It wouldn't take much for him to deliver a few stern warnings to Empress Celene or some other Orlesian noble, especially one of the elder nobles who he may have fought against.

Also, wouldn't the First Warden have had to send the Hero of Ferelden out of the country for much the same reason (I realize King Cousland or King and Queen Theirin might make all that a touch complicated)? For all intents and purposes, the 2 Fereldan Grey Wardens are on equal standing in both public perception and political standing in Ferelden.

[Spartas Husky]

.... more punishment than not.



besides The Warden prooved to be reliable, and to do what was necessary to stop the blight.... Loghain will do what is right for ferelden... two ideologies that dont mix.

[TJPags]

Sending him to Orlais might not be such a bad move.



Remember, the Hero is made Warden Commander, and yet he or she is relatively inexperienced - Loghain IS an experienced general and leader, so not inconceivable that his presence may undermine the PC's authority in the future.



Also, we have to assume the the Wardens know all about what happened with Sophia Dryden, and Loghain did kind of take over Ferelden once already . . . .so again, might make sense to get him away, where he'd be less likely to be able to take over - or inspire others to do so in his name.



Plus, it's poetic justice.

[MKDAWUSS]

Spartas Husky wrote...

.... more punishment than not.

besides The Warden prooved to be reliable, and to do what was necessary to stop the blight.... Loghain will do what is right for ferelden... two ideologies that dont mix.

Well, the Warden has done things that were extracurricular to stopping the Blight, some of which ended up being in Ferelden's best interest.

TJPags wrote...

Sending him to Orlais might not be such a bad move.

Remember,
the Hero is made Warden Commander, and yet he or she is relatively
inexperienced - Loghain IS an experienced general and leader, so not
inconceivable that his presence may undermine the PC's authority in the
future.

How so? He may make for a great advisor for the Warden Commander in running Amaranthine, since the Warden Commander (even Warden Commander Cousland) hasn't run a plot of land in his or her life.

Also, we have to assume the the
Wardens know all about what happened with Sophia Dryden, and Loghain did
kind of take over Ferelden once already . . . .so again, might make
sense to get him away, where he'd be less likely to be able to take over
- or inspire others to do so in his name.

Plus, it's poetic justice.

King Alistair and Queen (or King) Cousland happen to be Grey Wardens and the monarchs of Ferelden. They basically achieved Sophia Dryden's endgame plan.


I just think if they wanted to make Loghain politically irrelevant (something he wouldn't be in Ferelden), they would send him to neutral territory. Loghain may be polticially relevant in Orlais, pending on where he goes and who he runs into. Not just that, Loghain was supposed to help Grey Warden recruitment efforts. Guess that didn't last long...

If it's punishment, who is it punishment for? Loghain or Orlais?

[TJPags]

Sure, but what I meant was, Loghain is the Hero of the River (or whatever), and recently made a petty big power grab (IMO). Some people may think he deserves to be Warden Commander, not the player. So, moving him out removes that comparison, at least on a side by side basis, and leaves no room for Loghain to sit around a table each night and politic that he could do a better job (not saying he definitely would, but he seems perhaps the type to do so, or at least to sit and let others do so for him and smile, IMO).



And with the throne issue, again, remove temptation for him to make a possible power grab, or for others to do so in his name, even if just by criticing the rulers with "Loghain would do it differently". That has a different meaning when Loghain is standing right there, or in the next room, than if he's in another country.



And given his complete hatred for anything Orlesian, do you really think he would gain any political support in Orlais, or be successful in attempting to argue against their policies? Orlais is perhaps where he is MOST politically irrelevant, for that reason.

[Spartas Husky]

If you "won"... the enemy was the blight and Loghain.



Loghain might be a warden now, but trusting him is out of the picture, better keep him outside politics of his country so Ferelden is more easily influenced by the wardens.

[MKDAWUSS]

TJPags wrote...
Sure, but what I meant was, Loghain is the Hero of the River (or whatever), and recently made a petty big power grab (IMO). Some people may think he deserves to be Warden Commander, not the player.

Well, people are going to think he Hero of the River Dane deserves to be the Warden Commander instead of the Hero of Ferelden regardless of whether he's in Ferelden or not.

So, moving him out removes that comparison, at least on a side by side
basis, and leaves no room for Loghain to sit around a table each night
and politic that he could do a better job (not saying he definitely
would, but he seems perhaps the type to do so, or at least to sit and
let others do so for him and smile, IMO).

And with the throne issue, again, remove temptation for him to make a possible power grab, or for others to do so in his name, even if just by criticing the rulers with "Loghain would do it differently". That has a different meaning when Loghain is standing right there, or in the next room, than if he's in another country.

But at the same time, the Warden isn't Cailan. After the Landsmeet, I think he develops a certain respect for the Warden, regardless of if he marries Anora or not. He comes to understand that the Warden isn't some immature pretty-boy who wants to be at the head of some dramatic and spectacular full frontal assault, which, when reality strikes, fails miserably. He understands that war hardly ever has a storybook proceeding to it.

And given his complete hatred for anything Orlesian, do you really think he would gain any political support in Orlais, or be successful in attempting to argue against their policies? Orlais is perhaps where he is MOST politically irrelevant, for that reason.

He might be able to deliver a few stern warnings and statements to Empress Celene. Don't kid yourself if you think he's going to let her muscle him around. This is still a man who'll do anything to protect his homeland and his daughter's interests. If she poses a threat to Ferelden or his daughter's throne, he won't just bend over and grab the ankles, he'll respond in an according manner.

[TJPags]

He might just get a mace to the back of the head if he speaks too strongly to the Empress of Orlais IN Orlais.



After all, do you really think the Orlesians like Loghain all that much?

[MKDAWUSS]

Spartas Husky wrote...

If you "won"... the enemy was the blight and Loghain.

Loghain might be a warden now, but trusting him is out of the picture, better keep him outside politics of his country so Ferelden is more easily influenced by the wardens.

But then who's call was it to originally have Loghain lead the effort to recruit more Wardens? Anora may have had a say or two, but some high ranking Warden must have given the official call. I just find that to be contradictory to several months later, where you only have a few more Wardens, all of who were added by the Warden Commander, not Loghain.

[MKDAWUSS]

TJPags wrote...

He might just get a mace to the back of the head if he speaks too strongly to the Empress of Orlais IN Orlais.

After all, do you really think the Orlesians like Loghain all that much?

And then Ferelden hears about it, and it's time to raise another army. He does have slightly more protection than the average Orlesian (pending Celene's personality - I don't think she's exactly Miss Tyrantess here), partially because of any political implications - not just Orlais-Ferelden but to a lesser degree Orlais-Wardens. There's going to be some political backlash between Orlais and Ferelden if highly visible Orlesians take out Loghain. It might not necessarily be war, but there will be some tensions and a tightened border.

[TJPags]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

TJPags wrote...

He might just get a mace to the back of the head if he speaks too strongly to the Empress of Orlais IN Orlais.

After all, do you really think the Orlesians like Loghain all that much?

And then Ferelden hears about it, and it's time to raise another army. He does have slightly more protection than the average Orlesian (pending Celene's personality - I don't think she's exactly Miss Tyrantess here), partially because of any political implications - not just Orlais-Ferelden but to a lesser degree Orlais-Wardens. There's going to be some political backlash between Orlais and Ferelden if highly visible Orlesians take out Loghain. It might not necessarily be war, but there will be some tensions and a tightened border.

Fair.  But I'm not sure even being a Grey Warden allows you to go TOO far with a sitting ruler.

Bottom line, I think he'd have to tread pretty lightly, since it wouldn't take much convincing to say Loghain instigated whatever trouble there was.

However, he's likely canny enough not to start that kind of trouble.

[MKDAWUSS]

TJPags wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

TJPags wrote...

He might just get a mace to the back of the head if he speaks too strongly to the Empress of Orlais IN Orlais.

After all, do you really think the Orlesians like Loghain all that much?

And then Ferelden hears about it, and it's time to raise another army. He does have slightly more protection than the average Orlesian (pending Celene's personality - I don't think she's exactly Miss Tyrantess here), partially because of any political implications - not just Orlais-Ferelden but to a lesser degree Orlais-Wardens. There's going to be some political backlash between Orlais and Ferelden if highly visible Orlesians take out Loghain. It might not necessarily be war, but there will be some tensions and a tightened border.

Fair.  But I'm not sure even being a Grey Warden allows you to go TOO far with a sitting ruler.

Bottom line, I think he'd have to tread pretty lightly, since it wouldn't take much convincing to say Loghain instigated whatever trouble there was.

However, he's likely canny enough not to start that kind of trouble.

True, I think he knows his limits and knows what first moves he can and can't make.

[Sarah1281]

I'd just like to point out, since it's been mentioned twice, that it's impossible to be Queen Cousland if Loghain lives.

[jpdipity]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

OK, so let me get this straight - the First Warden sent Loghain to Orlais due to COI and interfering with Ferelden's affairs if he stayed, but none of that would be an issue in Orlais? I don't see much preventing him from meddling in Orlesian politics and whatnot - it's hardly a neutral relationship. It wouldn't take much for him to deliver a few stern warnings to Empress Celene or some other Orlesian noble, especially one of the elder nobles who he may have fought against.

Also, wouldn't the First Warden have had to send the Hero of Ferelden out of the country for much the same reason (I realize King Cousland or King and Queen Theirin might make all that a touch complicated)? For all intents and purposes, the 2 Fereldan Grey Wardens are on equal standing in both public perception and political standing in Ferelden.

Loghain is a threat in Fereldan - not Orlais.  In Fereldan, he is a leader with many followers - the country was divided for 1 1/2-2 years over whether he should be regent or not.  Being denied the throne (or regency) does not make those followers go away.  He could still muster up support to overthrow the crown in Fereldan.  The easiest way to remove this possiblity is to either execute him or ship him off to another country where he becomes irrelevant to Fereldan politics.  Orlais doesn't care about Loghain - he is unlikely to muster much support to build an army there regardless of how he acts up.

Whoever has been placed on the throne is there with the support and because of the Warden.  Why would the Warden oppose his/her own choice for the crown?  That's silly.  It is unlikely that the Warden would build an army to overthrow the very people he placed in power.  Even if Anora is on the throne by herself, Loghain fashioned a crown for himself.  We do not know his intentions even with his own daughter on the throne.  He is a threat to the Warden's choice to hold the crown because of the power and supporters he has obtained.

[Persephone]

Spartas Husky wrote...

If you "won"... the enemy was the blight and Loghain.

Loghain might be a warden now, but trusting him is out of the picture, better keep him outside politics of his country so Ferelden is more easily influenced by the wardens.

You do realize that Wardens should remain neutral and not meddle in politics at all? Would I want my country to be ruled by a small, secretive group, preaching of Blights and refusing to reveal how to end them, even to their own recruits? After said group was banished for treason once and almost caused King Maric's death? Without my player knowledge, I'd see the Wardens as a meddling, self-absorbed cult. IMO, of course.

[Persephone]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

If you "won"... the enemy was the blight and Loghain.

Loghain might be a warden now, but trusting him is out of the picture, better keep him outside politics of his country so Ferelden is more easily influenced by the wardens.

But then who's call was it to originally have Loghain lead the effort to recruit more Wardens? Anora may have had a say or two, but some high ranking Warden must have given the official call. I just find that to be contradictory to several months later, where you only have a few more Wardens, all of who were added by the Warden Commander, not Loghain.

I also believe that, given the dire situation in Amaranthine, it would be logical to send him there. (With all Wardens gone except for the few you can pick up) You can even tell Loghain that. But I love the way he says "Daggers and all." Incredible backbone there.

[CalJones]

Well I finally got to see his cameo, and I'll agree that it's nonsensical to send him to Orlais when Fereldan is hurting for wardens.

I took it that the interfering comment was more about Loghain being a well-established military leader who might not be able to keep himself from meddling in the younger, less experienced Warden Commander's business, rather than anything political, but I suppose you can take it either way. I like to think he's learned his lesson, however - his conversations with you at the end of Origins seem to indicate that he's well aware of his failings, at any rate.

As for his posting in Orlais, I think this is just a case of the writers having some fun. But if you're speaking in terms of logical reasons for sending him there, there are a few. The First Warden might think it would be a good idea to put him there in order to break down any prejudices Loghain has against the Orlesians and show him that wardens are wardens wherever they're from (as Cailan more or less said, actually). Or perhaps it's to keep the wardens there from becoming too involved in Orlais' politics, if that were a danger. Or indeed, it may well be a punishment of sorts. But there's also the more mundane reason that the First Warden wants Loghain out of Fereldan, and Orlais happens to be the nearest neighbour. I suppose we'll never know (unless there's a DLC, of course).

[MKDAWUSS]

Sarah1281 wrote...



I'd just like to point out, since it's
been mentioned twice, that it's impossible to be Queen Cousland if
Loghain lives.

True, but in that scenario, 2 Grey Wardens are running the country,
something that they seemed to want to avoid by keeping Loghain in his
native country. If they want Grey Wardens to remain politically neutral,
allowing them to keep the crown sounds highly contradictory to that.

jpdipity wrote...

Loghain is a threat in Fereldan -
not Orlais.  In Fereldan, he is a leader with many followers - the
country was divided for 1 1/2-2 years over whether he should be regent
or not.  Being denied the throne (or regency) does not make those
followers go away.  He could still muster up support to overthrow the
crown in Fereldan.  The easiest way to remove this possiblity is to
either execute him or ship him off to another country where he becomes
irrelevant to Fereldan politics.  Orlais doesn't care about Loghain - he
is unlikely to muster much support to build an army there regardless of
how he acts up.

Yet the whole time he still saw his
daughter as the ruler of Ferelden. If he was intending to overthrow her,
I don't think he would have recognized her title at all. And while he
still has followers in Ferelden, going to Orlais doesn't make his
followers' enthusiasm for him go away.

And yes, Orlais doesn't
care about Loghain, but he does have some political clout due to any
after-effects of any attempts on his life. If some Orlesian with
political standing (like, say Celene I) executes Loghain and news of
that reaches Ferelden, there's going to be some significant backlash for
that. There's going to be significant tension and numerous people
straddling a thin line. People on both sides of that line are going to
wait for the other side to make the first move across.

Whoever
has been placed on the throne is there with the support and because of
the Warden.  Why would the Warden oppose his/her own choice for the
crown?  That's silly.  It is unlikely that the Warden would build an
army to overthrow the very people he placed in power.  Even if Anora is
on the throne by herself, Loghain fashioned a crown for himself.  We do
not know his intentions even with his own daughter on the throne.  He is
a threat to the Warden's choice to hold the crown because of the power
and supporters he has obtained.

Persephone wrote...
You do realize that Wardens should remain neutral and not meddle in politics at all? Would I want my country to be ruled by a small, secretive group, preaching of Blights and refusing to reveal how to end them, even to their own recruits? After said group was banished for treason once and almost caused King Maric's death? Without my player knowledge, I'd see the Wardens as a meddling, self-absorbed cult. IMO, of course.

The bottom line is that they're both Grey Wardens and both have power and influence in Ferelden. There could be a Grey Warden sitting on the throne, hardly a "politically neutral" position. Basically, Loghain is a concern because of his political ties, but the Warden is an asset because of his political ties?

[LobselVith8]

CalJones wrote...

Well I finally got to see his cameo, and I'll agree that it's nonsensical to send him to Orlais when Fereldan is hurting for wardens.
I took it that the interfering comment was more about Loghain being a well-established military leader who might not be able to keep himself from meddling in the younger, less experienced Warden Commander's business, rather than anything political, but I suppose you can take it either way. I like to think he's learned his lesson, however - his conversations with you at the end of Origins seem to indicate that he's well aware of his failings, at any rate.
As for his posting in Orlais, I think this is just a case of the writers having some fun. But if you're speaking in terms of logical reasons for sending him there, there are a few. The First Warden might think it would be a good idea to put him there in order to break down any prejudices Loghain has against the Orlesians and show him that wardens are wardens wherever they're from (as Cailan more or less said, actually). Or perhaps it's to keep the wardens there from becoming too involved in Orlais' politics, if that were a danger. Or indeed, it may well be a punishment of sorts. But there's also the more mundane reason that the First Warden wants Loghain out of Fereldan, and Orlais happens to be the nearest neighbour. I suppose we'll never know (unless there's a DLC, of course).

It could be because of Loghain's reputation. In dialogue between Leliana and Loghain, she does mention that Maric is respected among Orlesians because he was a "rebel prince" going against a greater force of chevaliers. I don't see why Loghain wouldn't have a similiar reputation since he helped liberate Ferelden and would likely hold a similiar popularity among those same Orlesians.  It's possible the First Warden could see Loghain's presence in Orlais helping concentrate more authority for the Wardens in the same way that Ferelden is the first nation outside of the Anderfels with the Wardens in a high position of authority (if Alistair is chosen as King). It's possible that Loghain might end up meddling in Orlesian politics, directly or indirectly, as a result of his past history. Considering that the chevaliers are allowed to assault the "lower class" that might not be such a bad thing.

As for Ferelden hurting for more Wardens, I suppose it depends on the political situation as well as how many Fereldens feel about Orlesians. If its simply the Queen, Anora might want to have no one to contest her political authority, even her father (as she does appoint him to get new people to join the Grey Wardens during the Coronation). If it's Anora and Alistair as the King and Queen, there's already a Grey Warden placed in a position of authority over an entire nation (not to mention a templar, a holy warrior of the Chantry). I'd imagine King Alistair probably doesn't want Loghain in Ferelden given what happened to Duncan. The Hero, on the other hand, is a popular hero (and if non-human representing a change to the typical view of mages/elves throughout Thedas). Given the potential to be appointed to Arl of Amaranthine (and help people accept the presence of Orlesian Grey Wardens as a result) I can see why the Warden Commander wouldn't be pulled out of Ferelden when Loghain is tasked with going to Orlais.

[Sarah1281]

If it's Anora and Alistair as the King and Queen, there's already a Grey Warden placed in a position of authority over an entire nation (not to mention a templar, a holy warrior of the Chantry).

Alistair's not a Templar. He was GOING to be a Templar, he trained for it, he has Templar skills, but he's not a Templar. It's like if someone drops out of med school before their final year: they might have a lot of the knowledge and skills but they're not a doctor.

[jpdipity]

MKDAWUSS wrote...
Yet the whole time he still saw his daughter as the ruler of Ferelden. If he was intending to overthrow her,
I don't think he would have recognized her title at all. And while he still has followers in Ferelden, going to Orlais doesn't make his followers' enthusiasm for him go away.

And yes, Orlais doesn't care about Loghain, but he does have some political clout due to any
after-effects of any attempts on his life. If some Orlesian with political standing (like, say Celene I) executes Loghain and news of that reaches Ferelden, there's going to be some significant backlash for hat. There's going to be significant tension and numerous people straddling a thin line. People on both sides of that line are going to wait for the other side to make the first move across.

He had a crown created for himself.   I am not sure what his intent was with that crown.  Perhaps you have more insight into his character than I or my Warden. 

I hardly think that Orlais is concerned with being overthrown by Fereldan.  Orlais is the most powerful empire in Thedas.  They may have been pushed out of Fereldan, but I never once got the impression that Orlais could ever be threatened by a Fereldan attack.  Backlash maybe, but hardly "significant" and probably hardly note-worthy.

MKDAWUSS wrote...

The bottom line is that they're both Grey Wardens and both have power and influence in Ferelden. There could be a Grey Warden sitting on the throne, hardly a "politically neutral" position. Basically, Loghain is a concern because of his political ties, but the Warden is an asset because of his political ties?

The Warden is not necessarily more of an asset than Loghain - they both have influence - that's not the point.  The Warden has power and influence, like Loghain, but is unlikely to use it to oppose the crown, unlike Loghain.  Loghain is threat because he opposed who was put on the throne.  Even his own daughter felt the need to oppose him to gain the throne because she was unsure if he could be trusted.  She only backs her father if the Warden opposes her - Loghain is her last resort.   Do you think Loghain, who fashioned a crown for himself, would continue to back the daughter who opposed him?  I think it is a very high risk to believe that he is not a threat.  So, neutralize the threat by shipping him off to a country where he will have little power/influence or kill him.

Modifié par jpdipity, 18 août 2010 - 04:45 .

[Sarah1281]

Even his own daughter felt the need to oppose him to gain the throne because she was unsure if he could be trusted. She only backs her father if the Warden opposes her - Loghain is her last resort. Do you think Loghain, who fashioned a crown for himself, would continue to back the daughter who opposed him?

Ever call Anora out on her turning on you at the Landsmeet? She hardly thinks she's in danger, she just wants Loghain to stop making all the decisions.



And that side quest with the throne was so OOC it was ridiculous and contradicts pretty much everything else in the game. Loghain was repeatedly saying that he considered Anora the monarch, in the cut scenes it's clear how much Loghain didn't want to be dealing with regent things, Loghain's much happier once he's a Grey Warden and not in charge anymore...yeah, lusting after the throne is one thing I think he's without a doubt innocent of.

[CalJones]

That whole stupid crown quest ticks me off, to be honest - it feels very out of character. You can even take him along on it and he doesn't say anything nor do his men recognise him. Nobody seems to actually wear a crown in Fereldan, including Anora at her own coronation, so it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

As far as Anora goes, yes, I do believe he does back her. Talk to him in camp and he describes her as formidable and says she will make a good queen (he sounds proud of her in this dialogue). He never tried to remove her from power, and I can't believe he would after he has become a warden. It's pretty clear that he loves his daughter, even though she turned against him. The game has given me no reason to think otherwise.

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

LobselVith66 wrote...

If it's Anora and Alistair as the King and Queen, there's already a Grey Warden placed in a position of authority over an entire nation (not to mention a templar, a holy warrior of the Chantry).

Alistair's not a Templar. He was GOING to be a Templar, he trained for it, he has Templar skills, but he's not a Templar. It's like if someone drops out of med school before their final year: they might have a lot of the knowledge and skills but they're not a doctor.

Alistair makes it clear that he stopped wanting to be a templar after the Harrowing he witnessed and that Duncan got him out of it, but most people in Ferelden would probably view him as a templar (especially if they witnessed him fighting just like a templar does during the year long trek he took with the Warden). Considering how religious and pro-Chantry many humans are in Ferelden, I could see many people viewing Alistair as a templar and that view having a big impact on how they viewed him as King.

Sarah1281 wrote...

jpdipity wrote...

Even his own daughter felt the need to oppose him to gain the throne because she was unsure if he could be trusted. She only backs her father if the Warden opposes her - Loghain is her last resort. Do you think Loghain, who fashioned a crown for himself, would continue to back the daughter who opposed him?

Ever call Anora out on her turning on you at the Landsmeet? She hardly thinks she's in danger, she just wants Loghain to stop making all the decisions.

And that side quest with the throne was so OOC it was ridiculous and contradicts pretty much everything else in the game. Loghain was repeatedly saying that he considered Anora the monarch, in the cut scenes it's clear how much Loghain didn't want to be dealing with regent things, Loghain's much happier once he's a Grey Warden and not in charge anymore...yeah, lusting after the throne is one thing I think he's without a doubt innocent of.

I figured that it was Arl Howe who comissioned it, since he was stealing from the treasury and likely was responsible for giving people the impression that Loghain would declare himself King (like Loghain's emissary Imrek).