4454 réponses à ce sujet

[Inzhuna]

Zandilar wrote...

Actually, it rather surprises me that
you have only ever seen it hurled around as an insult,
ishmaeltheforsaken. I can assure you that many lesbians can and do use
the term as a way of identifying themselves, and pretty much all of them
use it with pride.

I am a (very) soft butch myself. I detest a lot of feminine things, to be perfectly honest.

Inzhuna,
you're right by the way. If we could see the back of stereotypes, it
would be a glorious day. Unfortunately, human beings don't think that
way. I'm sure you label yourself every day, and probably do it
reflexively without realizing what you're doing.

I realize the
proceeding paragraph probably makes me sound like a hypocrite, however. I
used the labels myself, I called her more butch than femme, I said her
actions with regards to Donnic were masculine-ish. In the latter case, I
was actually referring specifically to her offer to pay a dowry to
Donnic's mother, which, on Earth is traditionally the role of the groom,
who is traditionally male. It could, and most certainly does, work
differently in Thedas, which seems to have better equality of the sexes
than Earth did in medieval times.

I'm not sure what you mean by "label yourself". I think you mean to say "identify yourself" there and that's not the same thing as "stereotype". E.g. I can identify myself as female but that doesn't mean I subscribe myself to society's standards for women. I'm not saying I never ever stereotype; I'm not without faults, but I usually catch myself when I do and slap myself for it. I refuse to think that because it's "human nature" we should just go on with stereotyping and discriminating, because that's just the saddest thing to accept.

edit: This thread needs more Aveline!

Modifié par Inzhuna, 28 avril 2011 - 03:03 .

[mesmerizedish]

Zandilar wrote...

Actually, it rather surprises me that you have only ever seen it hurled around as an insult, ishmaeltheforsaken. I can assure you that many lesbians can and do use the term as a way of identifying themselves, and pretty much all of them use it with pride.

I am a (very) soft butch myself. I detest a lot of feminine things, to be perfectly honest.

I tend to be pretty defensive about it... I guess I'd be a butch-ish lipstick I like to be pretty and well-dressed, but my sense of what that means tends toward the masculine. And I've been on the receiving end of some butch-hurling, so that may color my perception.

[halokitty]

I don't think of Aveline as butch. I think she is a woman who has been raised to compete with male warriors and knights. I don't think Aveline believes she can allow herself to appear soft or overly feminine. I have to wonder if that's something she may admire/resent about Lady Hawke, the ability to be uncompromising, to allow herself to be a woman and a formidable presence on the battlefield.

[Maria Caliban]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The problem I have with "butch" is that I've never seen or heard it used except as an insult.

That's unfortunate. Do you have a small community in the white plains of Empathica?

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The problem I have with "butch" is that I've never seen or heard it used except as an insult.

That's unfortunate. Do you have a small community in the white plains of Empathica?

Not really... I guess it's just never come up. I haven't really heard the term at all since college

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 28 avril 2011 - 05:06 .

[Maria Caliban]

halokitty wrote...

I have to wonder if that's something she may admire/resent about Lady Hawke, the ability to be uncompromising, to allow herself to be a woman and a formidable presence on the battlefield.

I doubt it. She seems very happy with who she is. I don't think Aveline views her womanliness as being compromised.

Even the issue with being with Donnic or not is whether she'll allow herself to be a human being or continuing to be this sort of justice robot. It's not about being more of a woman.

[hoorayforicecream]

Maria Caliban wrote...

halokitty wrote...

I have to wonder if that's something she may admire/resent about Lady Hawke, the ability to be uncompromising, to allow herself to be a woman and a formidable presence on the battlefield.

I doubt it. She seems very happy with who she is. I don't think Aveline views her womanliness as being compromised.

Even the issue with being with Donnic or not is whether she'll allow herself to be a human being or continuing to be this sort of justice robot. It's not about being more of a woman.

One of the things about Aveline I thought was that she's actually kind of insecure, but hides it behind her outer layer of strength. She's very confident at her ability to fight, but insecure in many other things - that's why she asks Hawke about whether she should return to Ferelden in Act 3, that's why she has her touching discussions with Isabela. It provides an interesting dichotomy of the character, and allows most of us to relate, since we often have at least one thing we're confident in, and not necessarily in others.

That said, she says that she looks good naked. I would totally believe her.

[TobiTobsen]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

That said, she says that she looks good naked. I would totally believe her.

We need proof! FOR SCIENCE!

[mesmerizedish]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

That said, she says that she looks good naked. I would totally believe her.

I agree

There are so many different standards of "attractiveness," even for just me personally, that I find it really, really difficult to say which character I think is the best-looking, but I definitely think that Aveline is the most classically "beautiful."

[Maria Caliban]

I agree she's a touch insecure and might envy Hawke his/her (seeming) confidence. However, I don't think Aveline sees herself as insufficiently womanly. Her big hang up seems to be that she's not the knight her father wanted her to be, and sometimes that bothers her.

[hoorayforicecream]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I agree she's a touch insecure and might envy Hawke his/her (seeming) confidence. However, I don't think Aveline sees herself as insufficiently womanly. Her big hang up seems to be that she's not the knight her father wanted her to be, and sometimes that bothers her.

I think she does, to some extent... perhaps on a subconscious level. You could make an argument for it during these banters with Isabela:

Aveline: How are you so successful with men? You're not that pretty.
Isabela: Cast a wide enough net, and you're bound to catch something.
Aveline: (Laughs) At least you're willing to admit it.
Isabela: Trust me. I've heard, "Get away from me, you pirate hag!" more times than I care to count.
Aveline: Doesn't that bother you?
Isabela: Why should it? They don't know me. I know me.

Aveline: You're right.
Isabela: About?
Aveline: About knowing who you are.
Aveline: I'm the captain of the guard. I'm loyal, strong, and I don't look too bad naked.
Isabela: Exactly. And if I called you a mannish, awkward, ball-crushing do-gooder, you'd say...?
Aveline: Shut up, ****.
Isabela: That's my girl.

Isabela: So, Donnic was in the Rose.
Aveline: He was not!
Isabela: Easy, big girl. He wasn't shopping for himself. You're lucky to have a man who wants to please you.
Isabela: But, maybe you could indulge him more. Are there areas of intimacy you haven't explored?
Aveline: Why? Why do you give me these doubts!
Isabela: Aveline. If you shove your thumb up his ass, I win.

My view is that she's asking because she might be unsure of it, so she goes to the most confident woman she knows, and gets some bang-on great advice.

Edit: Blerg, formatting.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 28 avril 2011 - 05:47 .

[Maria Caliban]

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Though Aveline picking Isabela as a source for womanly advice... that's got to be subconscious.

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Though Aveline picking Isabela as a source for womanly advice... that's got to be subconscious.

Well, let's be honest... Isabela really knows how to be a woman.

[hoorayforicecream]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Though Aveline picking Isabela as a source for womanly advice... that's got to be subconscious.

Well, let's be honest... Isabela really knows how to be a woman.

I'm not sure that's what Maria meant. In any case, I dunno if it's subconscious, conscious or super conscious, but if I wanted advice on how to be a more confident woman, Isabela would be on top. *cough* Of my list. What? 

[Shacary]

I dont totally understand why anyoen thinks of Aveline as butch.. I think of her as a tomboy, raised by a father that wanted a knight and chevaliar. we learn her Mum passed on way early so I think her mannerisms are feminine enough, but certainly she has more confidence in the characteristics her pop taught her..
I really found her to be one of the strongest female representations in gaming for a long time [ admittedly I dont play to many of them but...] I detest the porn star body sex kittens, with slick evil violence and or me first type personalities portrayed or the opposite extreme of the gal in the Aliens [3?] movie that was more Man than the Men in the squad. women really can be feminine [ and tomboys] and still be strong....

[jackkel dragon]

Don't let me break up the discussion, but I think this is the right thread to post the sequel to my old Aveline/husband romance scene. ;p

Donnic: Look at this. It's like sneaking into the captain's quarters. Heavy risk... but the prize.
Aveline: I was wondering when you'd show. What's your intention, Donnic?
Donnic: To give the Coterie every kind of hell I can, suicide or not. But until then... I want all the time I can get. Win, lose, doesn't matter. I want you.
Aveline: Sounds like you'd better make every minute count, guardsman...

If anyone can tell me what page the Wesley version was on, or where I put the Aveline = Chuck Norris jokes, I'd appreciate it. I'm trying to compile my fanworks into one place so they can be found more easily.

[beserker7]

Aveline should have been Leliana hot or a large blonde viking older cougar type like Meredith that you could romance. The jawline the artists gave her is too 'manface'. Not hating on character, but only having Isabela and Merill female romance sucked. A ****, elf who cuts herself, or manface. Bioware dropped the ball on the love interests compared to Leliana and Morrigan's look, personality and backstory from DAO.

[jackkel dragon]

I thought of Aveline as more of a sisterly character, at least to Hawke.
But don't let me not suck up your free time.

[Zandilar]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

How is Aveline butch? She's just being protective of the people she cares about.

That's being motherly. Think of a lioness protecting her cubs, but that's still motherly.

Motherliness is an important part of femininity, no?

And this is where I throw a tantrum and chuck all of my toys out of the pram. <_<

I give up. Seriously? That's the best you can do? How about the male guards? Are you saying now that they're feminine because they're protectors and protecting people they care about?

Sheesh. Why can't Aveline be tough because she's just tough? Why is it so wrong for her to be butch? Seriously, we don't get many butch women in computer games... It's nice to have the occasional representative.

Modifié par Zandilar, 29 avril 2011 - 05:41 .

[Zandilar]

iOnlySignIn wrote...
If they are as protective as Aveline, yes. For most mammals, it's the female that takes care of the young, oftentimes exclusively, while the male compete against each other for the opportunity of mating. So in general, protecting the weak and helpless is a feminine thing to do, while the male psyche is more interested in competing to be the strongest.

But this is not actually the case in the human species. In Australia and the US, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of our armed forces are male. Not only that, but I think you'll find that women are not typically allowed on the front lines (I think that law has changed here in Australia). And because that's such a bad example, I'm sure the police forces (most equivelant to a city watch/guard) are also mostly made up of men. Lets just say that Australia didn't have it's first female police agent until 1915, and the state I live in (Victoria) didn't get its first female police detective until 1942. It took another 10 years before we got a second (I think...). What I'm trying to say here is, that for the majority of human history males have dominated the protective roles you're talking about.

While social mores are quite different in Thedas with regard to gender equality, I'm pretty sure we see more male warrior characters than female (and females who are do seem to be exceptional). So no, the protective role is not a feminine one, not even in Thedas.

Are you equating butch/masculinity with toughness? I don't think there is any relation between the two. After all in Thedas, being a (tough) warrior has no correlation with gender, except among the Qunari. For me, Aveline is very tough, AND very feminine. Meredith is just as tough, but much less feminine. Another example is Leliana. Is she feminine? Hell yeah. Can you say she's not tough? Maybe not as tough as Aveline or Meredith, but certainly tougher than most characters in the DA universe IMHO.

You got me. And I'm wrong, you're right. However, I see Aveline and Meredith reversed to the way you see them.

[GameBoyish]

beserker7 wrote...

Aveline should have been Leliana hot or a large blonde viking older cougar type like Meredith that you could romance. The jawline the artists gave her is too 'manface'. Not hating on character, but only having Isabela and Merill female romance sucked. A ****, elf who cuts herself, or manface. Bioware dropped the ball on the love interests compared to Leliana and Morrigan's look, personality and backstory from DAO.

Aww, look on the bright side, we have douchebags like you who think all strong women must appear with pornstar builds and supermodel faces.

[mesmerizedish]

Aveline doesn't even have a manface. At all. I'll repeat what I said above and say that of DAII's women, Aveline is the most classically beautiful.