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[PJ156]

Can any one out there give me some tips on the wall of the faithless. Specifically how do you get someone out; is there a recognised lore which would govern this? Or can I make something up without too much issue?

I know in the OC you travel to the wall and fight some critters but is this the only way?

Just wondering realy, I am quite happy to make up my own thing but if this is already written down somewhere then that would be cool.

Thanks

PJ

[Vaalyah]

Excuse me but... are you asking for details related to pen&paper D&D? Or just related to the game NWN2?

[PJ156]

Pen and paper would be good. I am writing a mod where one of the NPC's is trying to resue his brother from the wall of the faithless. I am interested in if there is a correct way to go about achieving this (the rescue not the mod) is it written down anywhere or am I free to make something up.



I try to keep the FR lore in place if I can.



PJ

[Vaalyah]

I have the 3rd edition manuals. Not the 4th ones (moreover, if I remember correctly, in the 4th the wall doesn't exist any more). Is it ok for you?

By the way... which mod? I really would like to help in modding too so I am looking around for seeing if I can find some interesting project!

[UncleGerhardt]

At least in Kaelyns good ending for MotB she leads raids against the Wall to rescue some of the faithless. IIRC I read somewhere, that devils or demons sometimes attack the wall to get some souls.

[PJ156]

Third edition is great. I only have a second edition players guide and monster manual, that's not much use I don't think. If I can even find them anymore.



I am working on PT III of my own campaign, Tales from the Lake, it is titled The Last Days of the Raven. I am one of many solo modders out here in the ether. There are teams looking for help on the modules forum if you are looking to join up soon. I myself want to run this completion solo since that's how I started the campaign. However I am starting a project Jan 2011 which I have titled These Dark Days of Waiting, that will be a single player rogue mod, I suspect by then I will only to pleased to colaborate (is that how you spell it?).



PJ

[kamalpoe]

Vaalyah wrote...
 I really would like to help in modding too so I am looking around for seeing if I can find some interesting project!

I would suggest heading to the module forum http://social.biowar...egory/167/index , finding one you think sounds interesting and then sending a message to the module author who almost assuredly is the person who created the thread.

Depending on what you're interested in helping with, I can't imagine many authors wouldn't be happy for help in one thing or another. You'll just need to find someone looking for help in an area you're willing to help in. Testers are always welcome, and I see at least one thread specifically asking for people interested in writing.

[PJ156]

UncleGerhardt wrote...

At least in Kaelyns good ending for MotB she leads raids against the Wall to rescue some of the faithless. IIRC I read somewhere, that devils or demons sometimes attack the wall to get some souls.

That's a physical attack then. I am wondering if you could identify a specific soul then draw it out?

I never finished MoTB, I could not live with the spirit eater stuff.

PJ

[kamalpoe]

PJ156 wrote...

UncleGerhardt wrote...

At least in Kaelyns good ending for MotB she leads raids against the Wall to rescue some of the faithless. IIRC I read somewhere, that devils or demons sometimes attack the wall to get some souls.

That's a physical attack then. I am wondering if you could identify a specific soul then draw it out?

I never finished MoTB, I could not live with the spirit eater stuff.

PJ

I got the impression that they tended to lose their identity after some time in the Wall as they began to merge with it. Of course with magic and all anything's possible.

[PJ156]

Which I guess means I could make things up .

[MasterChanger]

I was initially going to say that you were getting into Wall of the Spoilers territory, but I think you've kicked that wall over now.

[Vaalyah]

@ PJ156: I am searching on my manuals... I have MANY manuals, so give a little time (I moved to this new houses a month ago so my manuals are still boxed :-D ), I hope in one hour I would write here what you need.



@ Kamalpoe: thank you for the suggestion, I have to have a look to that section!

[Vaalyah]

Ok, nothing on "Faith and Pantheon", looking to another manual.



Ok, the Forgotten Realm manual.

I cannot copy due to copyright reason, but I can summarize, concept are perfect, name, of course, cannot, because I am reading from the Italian manual.



"Kelemvor and Jergal reign is a small part of the Faith plane. This reign is called "Crystal Spiral" and is in the center of the county called "The City of Judgement". This city is a grey and overcrowded city where the population is just dead people waiting for their judgement.

The majority of the population simply wait for their own divinity to come and take them with Him/her, but there are people without faith (pagan) or those who have intentionally betrayed their own faith (false).

Pagans receive the same punishment: they become part of the wall that surrounds the City of Judgement. This wall is kept together by a sort of green supernatural slime. This slime prevent people from escaping and is also corrosive, till souls are completely vanished.

Falses, instead, just remain in the city waiting for their punishments.

Except from the, just Kelemvor and Jergal devotees remain in the city, "helping" the divinities to punish the others."



hope this could help. No more info also in the specific manuals about faith (and being my character a Cleric, I have TONS of those faith related manuals)

[Thiefy]

that was kinda something that bothered me about the wall, you could techinically be a lawful good person who just didn't worship and still end up with a terrible fate. Even children. =/



i am also upset that in the cannon game, you can't save a certain someone Dx

[kamalpoe]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

that was kinda something that bothered me about the wall, you could techinically be a lawful good person who just didn't worship and still end up with a terrible fate. Even children. =/

It's very Greek. The Gods were petty and it sucked to be you if they didn't like you.

I think you're also supposed to wind up in the Wall if your god is dead when you die. That would kind of suck during the Spellplague for instance.  Is there any lore on what happens if your the deity dies after you've died and gone on to your afterlife Plane?

[Vaalyah]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

that was kinda something that bothered me about the wall, you could techinically be a lawful good person who just didn't worship and still end up with a terrible fate. Even children. =/

i am also upset that in the cannon game, you can't save a certain someone Dx

Cannot understand the point... in D&D there are also EVIL divinities so, of course, for each person there is available a "suitable" divinity. In this sense, those who are too... lazy, to have faith are punished.
If you are referring to THAT certain someone there's an interesting mod at the vault...

@ Kamalpoe: no, when a divinity vanishes, another one, with domain affinity, takes that place (as Waukeen was giving powers to Llyra's clerics, if I remember correctly the name) and also take care of the vanished divinity devotees.

Modifié par Vaalyah, 18 août 2010 - 03:58 .

[Thiefy]

Vaalyah wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

that was kinda something that bothered me about the wall, you could techinically be a lawful good person who just didn't worship and still end up with a terrible fate. Even children. =/

i am also upset that in the cannon game, you can't save a certain someone Dx

Cannot understand the point... in D&D there are also EVIL divinities so, of course, for each person there is available a "suitable" divinity. In this sense, those who are too... lazy, to have faith are punished.
If you are referring to THAT certain someone, there's an interesting mod at the vault, that make you able to have him back safe ;-)

@ Kamalpoe: no, when a divinity vanishes, another one, with domain affinity, takes that place (as Waukeen was giving powers to Llyra's clerics, if I remember correctly the name) and also take care of the vanished divinity devotees.

that's my point though, and what I didn't like about the wall. You are more or less forced to have a faith regardless of how you live your life. Also, what happens to kids that are too young to have a faith or never get introduced to one? I'm assuming their souls get sucked into the wall too.

And I did mean that NPC, yes, but this is a no spoilers area, so I left the name out. I know there's a mod too, but it would have been nice if it were the "official" game

Modifié par Thief-of-Hearts, 18 août 2010 - 04:13 .

[Vaalyah]

Ops! Yes, this is the no-spoiler area, I was forgotting! Edited the previous post.

To say the truth, I just arrived at the keep, so I don't even know how the game ends, but I've heard about all around!

About children... if I remember correctly, they are all devoted to a divinity chosen by their parents till they are old enough to choose by themselves.

[Seagloom]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

that's my point though, and what I didn't like about the wall. You are more or less forced to have a faith regardless of how you live your life. Also, what happens to kids that are too young to have a faith or never get introduced to one? I'm assuming their souls get sucked into the wall too.

The sad part is it originally wasn't that way. When Kelemvor first ascended to godhood he strove to make the Afterlife reward the noble and punish the guilty. Evil people were tortured or used as labor, and those who lived good lives were rewarded. Unfortunately this approach had catastrophic results once his clerics made it known the afterlife worked that way. No one had any reason to to worship a god. Many people still did, but a steadily increasing number of individuals figured there was no point in doing so. All they had to do was be good people to get a nice afterlife.

The other gods, good and evil, got annoyed at their steady decline in worshippers and erosion of power, so they put Kelemvor, Mystra, and Cyric on trial (all for different reasons) with the accusation that they failures as gods. Kelemvor had a choice between losing his status or changing to another system that rectify's the current one's failings. At this point his LN nature kicked in hard and he came up with the current system that punishes those who don't worship gods. He basically became a conformist to keep his status. It fits in with his whole life story as a man who wanted to be heroic and good, but could never quite make it. Too bad for every soul on Toril though.

As far as children without a deity, I'm not sure on the specifics. There is a Forgotten Realms novel that covers this very subject, but I've forgotten the name and never read it besides.

@Kamalpoe - Dead deities end up floating endlessly in the Astral Plane. Their portfolios are taken by other gods or left unclaimed if no one else desires them or can somehow incorporate them. The husks of dead deities are where the Githyanki build their cities. They literally live on the backs of massive divine corpses. On those rare occasions when a dead deity's worship resumes enough for it to ressurect itself, it leaves the Astral Plane and takes up dominion in its own godly realm.

Modifié par Seagloom, 18 août 2010 - 05:44 .

[Vaalyah]

We must remember than in Forgotten Realms setting, divinities are in a sort of way "egoistic" with their devotees. For example, you just have to think that druids and rangers don't need to follow a god for having spells, but they just obtain magic from the force of Nature. In FR, however, they DO have to follow a divinity, so usually, they tend to worship a nature-related divinity, but in this way, we are loosing the idea of Nature as a whole and as a powerful "force".

So, since each god's power is strictly related to the number of their devotees, obviously, divinities are trying to set up a good "marketing department"!

[Seagloom]

I'm aware of that... and I agree in part. Because of Ao's decree at the end of the Time of Troubles every god, even the supposedly good aligned among them, crave for worshippers. I can only think of a handful of them that do not; such as three of the four elemental lords. It's probably because unlike other deities their worshipers are more often elementals. As well, they all have power outside the crystal sphere where Toril lies; whereas every other human god only exists there. (I note human specifically, because the gnome, dwarf, halfling, elf, and drow pantheons, as well as many monster deities have their roots in other settings as well.)

However, I disagree about the "losing the idea of Nature as a whole" bit. It's true deities in this setting encourage worship of them and that druids and even mages are beholden to the whims of gods; whereas in other settings a mage does not need to give two figs about their god of magic, and druids do draw their power from nature around them. That said, many of the gods also promote these very forces to begin with. Silvanus cares about the preservation of nature and demands his followers defend and nurture it. Talos promotes the destructive power of nature and uses his dominion over it to bully people into propitiating him. Sune teaches the virtues of beauty and love and seeks to make them flourish. She wants worshipers and is an embodiment of these things, but still seeks to spread their influence.

While I agree gods of Toril are necessarily egotistical due to their dependence on worship, I also think that does not make it impossible for a druid or cleric to worship aspects of the natural world or life. Gods are, if nothing else, representations of tangible experiences people in Toril encounter. Silvanus is the god of nature, as nature is an aspect of Silvanus. Chauntea is the world of Toril, and Toril is Chauntea. Selûne is the moon and the moon is Selûne. In other words, it is all intertwined and when broken down is not drastically different from other settings. Those are my thoughts anyway.

Modifié par Seagloom, 18 août 2010 - 08:22 .

[PJ156]

Thanks for all this everyone, and thanks Vaalyah for getting the books out. This fits nicely (or could be fitted) to the plot I had in mind. I think I am free to have the person in mind magically rescue someone from the wall.



I am also setting up some interiors in the mod. In one I have a chapel in which the seafaring merchant has a shrine to Waukeen, Tyr (the family diety) and Umberlee. Certainly he is not off to the wall but I wonder how the dieties night feel about it?

[Seagloom]

The short answer is they wouldn't mind.

It's common to worship multiple deities in Faerûn. A family that believes strongly in Tyr could still pray to Umberlee not to bring harm to friends on a sailing voyage, or might pray to Talos to spare their crops. They would pray to Tymora *and* Beshaba to avoid the latter's wrath, and so on...

The only really taboo deities are the ones with specifically cruel agendas such as Cyric, Shar, or Bane. (Although Shar skates by on rare occasions.) No one really worships those gods publicly save for select cities where they hold sway.

Modifié par Seagloom, 18 août 2010 - 08:32 .

[Vaalyah]

You're welcome! And if you need something else, just ask. As soon as I am able to find my manuals, I'll be checking and answering!



@Seagloom: I agree with your opinion about Nature, the fact is that if a druid or ranger doesn't worship directly a nature-related divinity, well, wall of the faithless for them. I don't think this makes sense, but from the FR manuals, this is the way :-(

[PJ156]

Seagloom wrote...

The short answer is they wouldn't mind.

It's common to worship multiple deities in Faerûn. A family that believes strongly in Tyr could still pray to Umberlee not to bring harm to friends on a sailing voyage, or might pray to Talos to spare their crops. They would pray to Tymora *and* Beshaba to avoid the latter's wrath, and so on..

That's kind of the way I saw it, thanks seagloom. It goes back to Kamals greek analogy I guess.

Cheers,

PJ