33 réponses à ce sujet

[Tarot Redhand]

I was just wondering what are the limits of nwn? Are there any? For example the number of lines in a 2da. The number of polygons in a model. The number of pixels in a texture. If there are limits, is there a list that I can download?

Any answers gratefully received.

TR

[Shadooow]

Afaik there are no limits, but the more lines (of certain 2da which are server side like spells/feats) the longer the game takes upon entering module to send it to the player (black screen problem - PRC has this). Also the more polygons the longer it takes to load - if its creature, client get often lag when the creature is spawned (if you spawn group of them its even worse) - the DLA illithids from CEP1 has this issue. If its tileset, game loading every area slower - Worms tilesets has this issue, even Caste/Rural loads quite long.



While those are not limits, its verry annoying and Im avoiding such stuff because not everyone plays everytime at high HW computer (and some people still dont have one).

[_six]

In fact there are limits to 2da lengths, but as of 1.69 most of these have been pushed up to 16 bits of lines which is... I don't remember, but it's millions (my computing teacher would have my head for not knowing). Originally some of the 2das had much lower limits - wings and tails were notoriously 256 lines each (including line zero).

[Tarot Redhand]

Actually 16 bits = 0 to 65535 unsigned. Also weren't generic doors limited to 255 also - I seem to remeber something about this in the readme for the ctp generic doors.

TR

Modifié par Tarot Redhand, 19 août 2010 - 12:45 .

[Khuzadrepa]

While it might not limit you, there are some rollover effects that can happen if you go above a certain line number in a 2da. Two that I have noticed are skills.2da (32 lines) and baseitems.2da (256 lines).

For polygons, the number 1000 is bumping around in my head as the recommended max for a model, but hopefully someone else can confirm that...

[_six]

Khuzadrepa wrote...

For polygons, the number 1000 is bumping around in my head as the recommended max for a model, but hopefully someone else can confirm that...

Goodness, I hope not! It kinda depends on what you're making, and how many of it will be placed. For creatures for instance, a range of 1000-1500 is about right for mob type creatures, but on larger ones polycounts can probably go up to 4-5000 or so without experiencing more than a little lag on older systems. 750 is about right for tiles or particularly complex and large placeables, but I'd interpret it as a guideline for averages. My woods tileset for instance has a bunch of 3-500 faced tiles, and a bunch of 1000-1500 tiles.

Really, though, as with all modelling, it's about what you polys can remove without anyone noticing the difference. The lower the better, as long as nobody sees the difference. The visible difference between a 3000 poly creature and a 6000 one for instance I'd say would probably be quite negligible. As long as you aren't in the five figures or spamming super-detailed models all over the screen NWN won't have too much trouble.

Regarding textures, I am led to believe that the current max is 4096x4096 pixels, but many older video cards may only render up to 2048x2048 correctly. The highest I've ever used in any project was a 512x2048 on the project Q shields textures, which didn't create any issues, but for most purposes good old 512x512 suits. If you know what you're doing with UVW mapping you can fit an awful lot in that space, and often hide tiling for flatly mapped objects without too much trouble.

Modifié par _six, 19 août 2010 - 06:15 .

[Eradrain]

In terms of 3d resources, you can get away with more depending on how good your/your users' systems are.  Modern computers will obviously have less trouble with high poly models than computers that were modern in 2002.

That said, there seems to be a point where NWN just keels over from the strain - a friend with a fairly decent computer tried importing a model with something like 13,000 faces as a placeable and the game just crashed instantly, if I remember his story right, when he tried to load the area.

[Jez_fr]

Tarot has a very good point. Now that NWN will not be updated officially anymore, it would be nice to have a handy list of known and tested limitations, like per 2da for exemple, but other ressources too. Maybe even a updated custom content Bible since Eligio's CCG has a number of outdated informations (like a lot of tutorials on the vault btw).



Speaking of poly limits, while doing a lot of model conversions testing these last years, I found that NWN is very forgiving. I found a limit at around 10.000 poly per mesh in a model, with a total limit at around 45-50.000 for the whole model (but it depends). Additionnally NWN doesn't like vertices closer than 0.3 cm, and shadows really hates that (ie crash), at 0.4 most crashes are avoided (so I often weld at 0.4 minimum if I want to keep smallest details). The shadow being a sucker anyway, its better to have a special mesh for that as they did in The Witcher.

I'd really like to see a project going for NWN High Def, pushing it to the limits graphically, and not artificially limited by this old computers considerations for once. This game still has such a huge potential, its a shame to not push it to the max. I have such a project for modern setting, but not sure it'll see the light of the day as its so much work for 1 person, but I digress...

(@Eradrain: its 95% probable that if you deactivate shadow on that model, it'll work fine, trust me)

[Eradrain]

Thanks Jez, I'll pass along that tip!

Modifié par Eradrain, 20 août 2010 - 09:56 .

[DarkStormInc]

Bigger question is, who wants to get DragonAge graphics for NWN?



Graphics wise I don't think there is an upper limit that can't be tricked or broken in some way. The real limitation is going to be in other areas such as scripting or the database.

[B_Harrison]

The real limitation is finding artists willing and able to create new content (or re-create BioWare content) to a consistent level of quality. As a community we could make peachykeen's NWShader a standard, and re-make every single art resource with higher poly counts, normal mapping, etc. And make NWNX another standard and get on board ShaDoOoW's 1.70 patch project...

But we'd have to get all the PW communities on board, and nine of every ten players/admins seem to be happy hacking & slashing with their friends using CEP content.

All that said -- and considering how often the game's age and limitations are discussed -- I haven't really seen any project or individual push NWN to its limit in any direction. World design, ruleset modifications, tileset use; the vast majority stay within boundaries that are still very recognisable as a 2002 Dungeons & Dragons action RPG.

/rant

And thanks for that info, Jez. I tend to play without shadows turned on, so I forget to take them into consideration when testing stuff.

Modifié par B_Harrison, 22 août 2010 - 11:22 .

[Rubies]

As a community we could make peachykeen's NWShader a standard, and re-make every single art resource with higher poly counts, normal mapping, etc.

I think it would be better to wait until it's a bit more globally stable - I know there's a LOT of people who can't use it currently and it wouldn't be too great to bring new graphics to the minority. That said, if it all ends up resolved I see no reason why I wouldn't start converting models for it.

[Drewskie]

But we'd have to get all the PW communities on board, and nine of every ten players/admins seem to be happy hacking & slashing with their friends using CEP content.

I'd say more play without any hak at all than with cep at this point.

[Eradrain]

Drewskie wrote...

But we'd have to get all the PW communities on board, and nine of every ten players/admins seem to be happy hacking & slashing with their friends using CEP content.

I'd say more play without any hak at all than with cep at this point.

That's disgusting, if it's true.

The beauty of this game is that the user-generated content.

[420]

Only some of the .2da limits were increased as of the 1.69 patch.



There are limits to the number of blueprints you can have, too many results in the DM client crashing. There are also limits to the size of .hak files and the total number of resources you can have in your module. Lastly there are limits to the maximum amount of specific content, like shields. CEP has reached the limit for large shields for example.



-420

[Shadooow]

If you are talking about general NWN limits then there is some info rather about game mechanics.

- no custom ranged weapon can have any ammo linked to it - this means its not possible to create new ranged weapon (why CEP (v1) has one in their baseitems is mystery)
- no custom weapon can have the weapon feats assigned to it (neither custom or standard) (linx NWNX allows this however)
- is said, its not possible to create new spell with grenade animation the current grenades are hardcoded (however this can be workarounded in script to check item tag)
- the NWN character creator cannot show custom base classes (this has been solved by nwmain hack though its not public yet, hope i get this for my patch) or races (no way to workaround this as its GUI) neither can show proper alignments based on modified 2das.
- we cannot create new spellcaster class with using spellbook
EDIT: no other class than cleric can cas spontaneous
- we cannot create new metamagic with the same usage as the default (automatic metamagic is possible though)
- epic spell radial menu is limited to 6choices, if you add one more the game crashes if player try to open sub-radial
- only 5 subradials is possible for single spell
- not possible to allow tenth and higher spell levels
- we cannot create a new GUI and show them through scripting
- we cannot create new "skin-changing" visual effect, nor beam
- we cannot create new weapon VFX effect
- the maximal level possible is 255, after that NWN crashes (note without NWNX the max is 40 unfortunately)
- the maximum ammount of animation for character is limited to 20
- the maximal ability score is 255, after that it rollover
- the ability bonus cap is +12, attack bonus cap is +20, skill bonus cap is +50, attack descrease is 40IIRC but not sure, ability decrease cap is dunno but capped really (NWNX can change it however)
- the maximal number of attacks NWN can show is around 7 (not sure now), others are just rolled, no animation
- the minimal dex bonus from armor is 1, value of 0 works like unlimited, also is not possible to make two armors with the same armor AC bonus but different arcane penalty etc.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 22 août 2010 - 11:18 .

[B_Harrison]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

- the maximum ammount of animation for character is limited (was 10 before 1.69, now not sure)

Anim slots 11-20 were added in 1.69, IIRC.

... - also is not possible to make two armors with the same armor AC bonus but different arcane penalty etc.

This is actually possible, by exploiting armor.2da's row cap of 255 (new base armour values starting at rows 256, 512, and so on loop back to 0 base AC). But it's still a limitation, because the higher rows still count as heavy armor (which is important to proficiencies and some hard-coded feats).

Modifié par B_Harrison, 22 août 2010 - 09:04 .

[Shadooow]

B_Harrison wrote...

This is actually possible, by exploiting armor.2da's row cap of 255 (new base armour values starting at rows 256, 512, and so on loop back to 0 base AC). But it's still a limitation, because the higher rows still count as heavy armor (which is important to proficiencies and some hard-coded feats).

awesome, i will look into 3.5 SRD if there are heavy armors that could benefit from this, thanks

[Shadooow]

invisig0th wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...
- is said, its not possible to create new spell with grenade animation the current grenades are hardcoded (however this can be workarounded in script to check item tag)

I'm not sure what you are referring here or whether it is actually correct, but custom grenades can be made. I have successfully made custom grenades with custom models (globe palm fruit from Barrier Peaks module), and it works just fine. Custom grenade model is thrown and bounces on ground, and then custom spell script is run without a problem.

I heard it somewhere, thats why I wrote "its said". I never tested it, I make custom grenades by the workaround I described, it was only for monsters anyway.

[Estelindis]

Limits of 255 exist for heads and armour/clothing parts, I believe. Ditto for cloaks. (It's really 256, but 0 - i.e. none - counts as one.)

EDIT: Thanks to Jez for spotting my typo. 

Modifié par Estelindis, 23 août 2010 - 11:59 .

[Jez_fr]

Typo Este meaned 256 instead of 266

Other known limits are (note that I collated these for myself during long years of reading, so some limits here might:be outdated, but I think they are still correct, otherwise I'd like to know):
- if a 2da can go after 256 lines, its limit is then 65 535.
- placeables.2da is limited at 65.535
- loadscreen.2da as a limit of 65.535 but only 255 are displayable at the same time in toolset per category/setting, so you can have 255 categories each one including as much as 255 loadscreens.
- limit of haks number is 56, at least for nwn server, after 56 nwnserver doesn't start anymore
- limit of tilesets in a module is 80, its actually 100 as of 1.69 patch but including vanilla NWN ones which are 20, that leave only 80 slots.(edited, thanks to _Six)

- concerning assets all game executables have their own limits which sometimes are not the same, so because something works in Aurora, doesn't mean it will in NWN solo, or on a server or even less with DM client.
- NWN server seems to have hard time to handle hak with more than 16.000 files, its safer to limit one hak content to 15.000 files.
- DM client crash if there is more than 15-16.000 files to handle in a module, you can check the number of files when the module is open in aurora, in /modules/Temp0 (or highest TempX) folder
It's unclear if it also take into account others assets not included in haks, like music, portraits and others (supposedly they account toward the 15.000 limit too).

At least that's what I noted these 4 last years, might need some updates.

Modifié par Jez_fr, 23 août 2010 - 01:42 .

[_six]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

... Also the more polygons the longer it takes to load ... If its tileset, game loading every area slower - Worms tilesets has this issue, even Caste/Rural loads quite long.

A bit late responding to this, but actually I've found the number of tiles in the tileset have as big or more of an effect on loading times than polycounts. NWN was really built to run 1-200 tile tilesets at most, so tilesets like TNO that are in the thousands in terms of tile numbers can take a long time even if those tiles aren't particularly large to load - and particularly with Worms' tilesets, as he has an unfortunate habit of basically including TNO in all his sets as well.

That's also why trying to place a terrain down in the toolset for the first time using Worms' tilesets often freezes the toolset for several seconds (on my machine, anyway).

Jez_fr wrote...

- limit of tilesets in a module is 30, its
actually 50 but including vanilla NWN ones which are 20, that leave
only 30 slots.

Wasn't this raised to 100 in 1.69?

Modifié par _six, 23 août 2010 - 12:12 .