67 réponses à ce sujet

[Skyblade012]

Yeah, I know. But I prefer not to think about it. Sci-fi is more fun when you're not taking it apart bit by bit.

[IanPolaris]

Skyblade012 wrote...

Yeah, I know. But I prefer not to think about it. Sci-fi is more fun when you're not taking it apart bit by bit.

This may suprise you, but I agree completely.  My point was that virtually all (all I've ever seen) Sci-Fi completely ignores relativity except for specific plot points and I am totally fine with that.

I just don't want anyone to be under any misconceptions.  The universe of ME (like virtually all other sci-fi universes) is strictly Newtonian.   FTL is not explained.  It is handwaved.  That's OK, but don't believe more of it than it is.

-Polaris

[Ieldra]

IanPolaris, thank you for explaining all that! I appreciate the effort.

And of course you're right that almost all widely-read SF ignores all this. My perception may have been clouded by "Revelation Space", which may be less widely read but makes an interesting story while not postulating FTL, and an attempt by Charles Stross to integrate the FTL/time travel problems into an SF story in "Singularity Sky" and "Iron Sunrise". So, even SF stories with interstellar plots definitely don't need to ignore these things to be interesting. But I guess expanding the time frame to millenia would be too much to ask of mainstream SF, even if those millenia felt like years to most of the cast.

While we're on the subject of who has copied from/was inspired by whom, I might mention again that the Reapers are inspired by/copied from Relevation Space's Inhibitors.

@Skyblade:
While, as I said, it's not a big matter for me, I do prefer to think about it. It doesn't diminish my appreciation of the game or its story, except that time and space are compressed so much in order to feel familiar to the player that the setting is in danger of losing its epic aspect. But that's another problem.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 août 2010 - 08:50 .

[Gibb_Garrus]

only real scifi nerds could pick up on all these "Copies", most of you happen to be them.



For me all of these things seem completely original, i like it that way

[Skyblade012]

Nah. It's like spotting references to other games or movies in the work. Just good fun.



For example, did anyone catch the portal music in Overlord?

[IanPolaris]

I've heard of Singularity Sky but haven't read it. From my colleagues who have read it, I've heard mixed reviews of how sucessful or even how desireable it was to even try to reconcile FTL with relativity (the cost is a hideous lack of both locality and causality), but I agree that in that work the effort was made. That makes it a tiny, tiny minority and only ulta-hard sci-fi enthusiasts are likely to have read it.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  One problem with the stories you mention is that they do basically procede on a 'forward' path, which given FTL and relativity is not a forgone conclusion.  That fact alone makes dealing with 'realistic' FTL an author's nightmare (and a nightmare in general which is why most modern physicists loath the idea of even global FTL).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 19 août 2010 - 09:19 .

[Skyblade012]

I can suspend my disbelief for things like this. It's only when the work doesn't even try with the science that I get upset.

[IanPolaris]

Skyblade012 wrote...

I can suspend my disbelief for things like this. It's only when the work doesn't even try with the science that I get upset.

In that case virtually all sci-fi including ME must make you upset.  Personally I think life's too short, and I know first hand just how hard it is to get people to grasp the implications of relativity even with the math and I fully understand how poisonous it is to good story tellling, so I am willing to give Sci-Fi a pass when it comes to FTL and relativity.  I strongly suggest that most should as well (as long as you remember you are giving ME a pass in this regard).

-Polaris

[smudboy]

I try not to think of Ender's Game as a positive influence when it comes to writing, let alone contributing to the world of sci-fi.

[ExtremeOne]

didymos1120 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

well lets be honest the Geth are Mass Effect's version of Star Trek's Borg and the Krogans are basically ME's Klingons.

The geth owe way more to Cylons than the Borg.  The only big parallel is that both races are into the hivemind thing, but that  concept isn't exactly unique to the Borg and has been part of SF practically from the very start.

Well,  OK: I suppose husking people could be compared to assimilation, but that's not geth tech, so you can't really count that. What the  Reapers did to Prothean civlization, as described by Vigil, actually sounds like the original description of the Borg.  Assimilation and nanoprobes and all that jazz came much later, and at first they basically just slaughtered people and almost literally scraped anything even remotely technological off the surface of the planets they attacked.  There were even little hints dropped after their introduction about remote Federation colonies and outposts just vanishing, infrastructure and all.  Then they got here, and Locutus happened, and their major concern became capturing people instead of tech.

 


I understand what you are saying but the one thing the geth and Borg both do is think as a collective. The reapers seem more like the Borg than the Geth do but both share a lot in common with the Borg 

[Skyblade012]

IanPolaris wrote...

Skyblade012 wrote...

I can suspend my disbelief for things like this. It's only when the work doesn't even try with the science that I get upset.

In that case virtually all sci-fi including ME must make you upset.  Personally I think life's too short, and I know first hand just how hard it is to get people to grasp the implications of relativity even with the math and I fully understand how poisonous it is to good story tellling, so I am willing to give Sci-Fi a pass when it comes to FTL and relativity.  I strongly suggest that most should as well (as long as you remember you are giving ME a pass in this regard).

-Polaris

No, ME doesn't cause a problem for me.  Granted, there are flaws in the physics, but the writers try to address them, and make them as small as possible.

An example of something that ruins my suspension of disbelief would be the Matrix, when about halfway in the writers decide to toss all science out the window, making mistakes a third grader could tell were wrong.

[IanPolaris]

Skyblade012 wrote...

An example of something that ruins my suspension of disbelief would be the Matrix, when about halfway in the writers decide to toss all science out the window, making mistakes a third grader could tell were wrong.

What?  You couldn't buy into the notion that humans were biological copper-top batteries that somehow could violate the second law of thermodynamics? [And very likely the first as well btw]

Sheesh. You have no imagination  (sarc)

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 19 août 2010 - 05:51 .

[Skohsl]

4) They are a hive mind, meaning they are controlled/guided by a single queen

A hive mind is the same as a swarm intelligence. A hive mind is where the mind itself is distributed over the hive, not in a single entity within the hive. Unless I'm mistaken of course, since I can't seem to remember what it should be called..., no guarantees.

[IanPolaris]

Skohsl wrote...

4) They are a hive mind, meaning they are controlled/guided by a single queen

A hive mind is the same as a swarm intelligence. A hive mind is where the mind itself is distributed over the hive, not in a single entity within the hive. Unless I'm mistaken of course, since I can't seem to remember what it should be called..., no guarantees.

That is not quite right.  A hive-mind is where a single overall intelligence controlls a multitude of bodies.  This mind may or may not be located in a single entity (but usually is in a being called a 'queen' after the insect hives and queens that inspired the concept).

A swarm mind which is also called a collective mind is what the Borg in ST have or the Geth in ME have.  This is an overall intelligence that is not located/concentrated in any given entity but rather is a gestaalt of all of them.  A swarm mind is a special form of hive mind but is generally not called that because this sort of mind does not have a "queen".

It's because of this difference, that the Star-Trek purists were up in arms about Star-Trek (the movie) 8 and the introduction of a "Borg Queen" which "ruined" the Borg for many fans because it changed the Borg from a completely alien collective mind to a more mundane classic hive-mind.

-Polaris

[Skohsl]

IanPolaris wrote...
That is not quite right.  A hive-mind is where a single overall intelligence controlls a multitude of bodies.  This mind may or may not be located in a single entity (but usually is in a being called a 'queen' after the insect hives and queens that inspired the concept).

A swarm mind which is also called a collective mind is what the Borg in ST have or the Geth in ME have.  This is an overall intelligence that is not located/concentrated in any given entity but rather is a gestaalt of all of them.  A swarm mind is a special form of hive mind but is generally not called that because this sort of mind does not have a "queen".

It's because of this difference, that the Star-Trek purists were up in arms about Star-Trek (the movie) 8 and the introduction of a "Borg Queen" which "ruined" the Borg for many fans because it changed the Borg from a completely alien collective mind to a more mundane classic hive-mind.

-Polaris

I am trying to find that which I forgot on wikipedia, but it isn't helping. Anyway..., a hive mind is the same as a swarm intelligence (it refers to the same concept at least). The hive mind is the mind, or conciousness, that emerges from the swarm itself. The swarm, or hive as a whole, acts as a brain does in a human body. The resulting behaviour is the same whether it is created by neurons, or by numerous insects. The swarm intelligence refers to the intelligent behaviour the hive, or swarm as a whole, displays.

Neither one has the need for an 'overmind'. Neither one needs a queen. Queens do not serve any purpose than to procreate, not lead or govern the swarm.

A hive-mind as you describe it does not exist in nature, so it cannot be inspired by a hive of insects.

"A group mind or group ego in science fiction is a single consciousness occupying many bodies. Its use in literature goes back at least as far as Olaf Stapledon's Last and First Men, a 1930 science fiction novel [1]. A group mind might be formed by telepathy, by adding brain-to-brain communication to ordinary individuals, or by some unspecified means. This term may be used interchangeably with "hive mind". A hive mind is a group mind with almost complete loss (or lack) of individual identity; most fictional group minds are hives. The concept of the group or hive mind is an intelligent version of real-life superorganisms such as ant or bee nests."

I can't find what it is supposed to be called... perhaps there is no separate term for a hive that is controlled by a 'queen-like' entity, rather than by the collective behaviour. If so, it is about time some one introduces one. 
According to wikipedia 'hive-mind' refers to both types of 'mind'.

***Edit*** after some 'research' on wikipedia, it seems that it doesn't know what it is either.

A hive-mind refers to a 'swarm intelligence', according to wikipedia a 'hive-mind' is a hive controlled by a 'queen' or overmind, inspired by insect hives, although the queens do not serve any such purpose in an actual hive. 'Swarm intelligence' refers to the collective intelligent behaviour a swarm or hive exhibits. So you'd think that these are two different terms, yet wikipedia says they are in fact synonymous. Another one of the wonderful inconsistencies in the encyclopedia. 

As seen in the quote from wikipedia, "The concept of the group or hive mind is an intelligent version of real-life superorganisms such as ant or bee nests." Superorganisms such as ant or bee nests are not governed by a queen-like organism, but merely by their individual behaviour. Whereas "a group mind or group ego in science fiction is a single consciousness occupying many bodies" seems to imply that there is a single consciousness that governs all the bodies in the swarm.

Modifié par Skohsl, 19 août 2010 - 07:00 .

[Nightwriter]

Mass Effect Wiki even notes the similarity to Ender's Game in the trivia section of its article on rachni.

[ExtremeOne]

IanPolaris wrote...

Skohsl wrote...

4) They are a hive mind, meaning they are controlled/guided by a single queen

A hive mind is the same as a swarm intelligence. A hive mind is where the mind itself is distributed over the hive, not in a single entity within the hive. Unless I'm mistaken of course, since I can't seem to remember what it should be called..., no guarantees.

That is not quite right.  A hive-mind is where a single overall intelligence controlls a multitude of bodies.  This mind may or may not be located in a single entity (but usually is in a being called a 'queen' after the insect hives and queens that inspired the concept).

A swarm mind which is also called a collective mind is what the Borg in ST have or the Geth in ME have.  This is an overall intelligence that is not located/concentrated in any given entity but rather is a gestaalt of all of them.  A swarm mind is a special form of hive mind but is generally not called that because this sort of mind does not have a "queen".

It's because of this difference, that the Star-Trek purists were up in arms about Star-Trek (the movie) 8 and the introduction of a "Borg Queen" which "ruined" the Borg for many fans because it changed the Borg from a completely alien collective mind to a more mundane classic hive-mind.

-Polaris

  

yeah once the Borg had a queen it destroyed the Borg for me and most Borg fans. 

[Mallissin]

Wait, if everything was borrowed from another source.



Where did the Asari come from? I want to read THAT book. Oh, baby!

[ExtremeOne]

Mallissin wrote...

Wait, if everything was borrowed from another source.

Where did the Asari come from? I want to read THAT book. Oh, baby!

   


that is one of the other things that was originally created for Mass Effect 1 and 2 everything else is lifted from either Star Wars or Star Trek and B5 

[IanPolaris]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Wait, if everything was borrowed from another source.

Where did the Asari come from? I want to read THAT book. Oh, baby!

   


that is one of the other things that was originally created for Mass Effect 1 and 2 everything else is lifted from either Star Wars or Star Trek and B5 

Actually the Asari remind me a great deal of the Deltans (and lesser extent Beta-Zeds) of STNG.

-Polaris

[Emperor Mars]

The alien bug thing is a sci fi trope....it happens alot and is in many different pieces of fiction. Its kind of like saying you copied elves from lord of the rings, or you copied zombies from night of the living dead.

[IanPolaris]

Emperor Mars wrote...

The alien bug thing is a sci fi trope....it happens alot and is in many different pieces of fiction. Its kind of like saying you copied elves from lord of the rings, or you copied zombies from night of the living dead.

Yes that's true to a point.  However, I recommend you read Ender's Game.   It reads almost precisely like a long version of the Rachni Wars from the inside (sustitute council races for humans) with the same extreme measures required to defeat it (substitute uplifted Krogan for Ender and his brilliant subordinates) that ultimately destroy both the bugs and those fighing it.

Furthermore at the end of Ender's Game, Ender is faced with a choice of destroying the last Queen or preserving her for a future time.  It's exactly the same choice that Shepard faces.

-Polaris

[Nightwriter]

ExtremeOne wrote...

yeah once the Borg had a queen it destroyed the Borg for me and most Borg fans. 

But she was AWESOME. I mean she was the only interesting part. Brought characterization to the whole Borg threat.

And this scene... so cool...

[ExtremeOne]

Nightwriter wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

yeah once the Borg had a queen it destroyed the Borg for me and most Borg fans. 

But she was AWESOME. I mean she was the only interesting part. Brought characterization to the whole Borg threat.



And this scene... so cool...

 


oh it was cool but it destroyed the whole idea of the Borg as a collective thinking as one where as with the Borg Queen it was like they just followed a normal leader. 

[Renaikan]

Actually Rachi was most likely taken from the same bug in Starship Troopers. I bet Ender did the same thing.