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[Nightwriter]

In all honesty, I can't see Miranda being any worse an XO or "leader" than Pressly. I mean he seemed to me like he pretty much knew how ships were run, and that's it.

I feel we should accept the distinctions between reality and fiction here. Miranda isn't meant to be the quintessential military leader. Dealing with people is Shepard's job, and the whole point of the game and your place in it.

[PsyrenY]

IanPolaris wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

My one problem picking her over Garrus is that TIM has a string tied to her - i.e. he knows where Oriana is. So he can get probably get her to betray me even post-resignation. Garrus has no such ties.

Yep and worse, Miranda has already shown that she has a weak spot for her sister that can (and has!) affected her judgement and worse yet, TIM knows exactly where Oriana is and Miranda doesn't....and if Shep goes paragon, TIM will use it against Miranda.  Indeed at the very end, I am shocked he didn't use it against her then (when she resigned).

-Polaris

It probably just didn't occur to him at that moment because he was so hopping mad. But counting on TIM not to pull every string at his disposal is not a safe bet, IMO.

[Caihn]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
Betray the one who help her to save her sister ? 

Miranda: But thank you, Commander. My sister is safe again, thanks in large part to you. I won't forget that.

If her sister isn't safe anymore she will try to save her again. Shepard could even help Miranda again.

That's different though. When she saved Oriana the first time, TIM was on her side. Now that he is against Miranda (If you go Paragon, that is,) then he can reforge the alliance he used to have with her father, and Oriana will be in danger.

It's not even clear if Miranda knows where Oriana was moved to. However, TIM definitely knows.

So it will a good opportunity to settle the problem, with Miranda. She knows very well Cerberus so I don't think it will be very difficult for them to get rid of TIM.

[IanPolaris]

Nightwriter wrote...

Well you sound quite reasonable actually, I don't think you're a hater. And you've got me wondering if I'm being impolite by not signing my name after my posts.

It depends on what you mean by leader. Different kinds of leaders are necessary in different situations. If you're asking if Miranda has the power to inspire and motivate, no. That's Shepard's job. It's why Shepard's necessary.

I think it's important to distinguish leadership, from management, from administration.  The reason that Mirada seems to be a good XO is that she is stellar at two of the three things above that you'd expect from a military XO, i.e. Management and Administration.  I grant that the line between management and leadership is fuzzy at best, but it's there.  I would also strongly dissent with your notion that it's not the XO's job to inspire and motivate.  The XO on a military ship has to act not only as the captain's right hand but also in the captain's absence, and that means personal leadership is most definately required and indeed is the most important part (along with superior management) of being an XO.

This is why being an XO in the modern Navies of the World is the penultimate step before becoming a ship's captain (of any displacement) yourself....and a downcheck at being an XO will mean you will never command a ship even if you retire as an admiral.

However, do I think she can get the job done? Do I think she's competent enough to run an operation or project? Yes. However, being Shepard's second-in-command in this situation does not require inspiration skills. If she had those skills, Shepard would be quite superfluous.

Again, I strongly dissent.  For a military style XO, leadership skills are essential (and so are management skills, but Miranda is stellar in that department).  Honestly with Garrus it's the other way around.  Garrus has superior leadership skills but his management skills still need some polishing.

-Polaris

[PsyrenY]

Yannkee wrote...

So it will a good opportunity to settle the problem, with Miranda. She knows very well Cerberus so I don't think it will be very difficult for them to get rid of TIM.

Underestimating TIM is folly. The Alliance tried it, and he ended up creating Cerberus as a result.
I'm not saying ousting him will be impossible (especially if he ends up becoming a problem for ParaShep) but your post reads as though eliminating TIM will be no more difficult than say, eliminating Fist.

[IanPolaris]

Nightwriter wrote...

In all honesty, I can't see Miranda being any worse an XO or "leader" than Pressly. I mean he seemed to me like he pretty much knew how ships were run, and that's it.

I feel we should accept the distinctions between reality and fiction here. Miranda isn't meant to be the quintessential military leader. Dealing with people is Shepard's job, and the whole point of the game and your place in it.

In truth a lot of this discussion is due to some very bad writing both in ME1 and in ME2.  In ME1, having Pressly be the distant XO that barely spoke to the marine (and alien operatives attached to the marines) is not so far fetched.  There are Carriers where the Captain (usually a rear admiral) has next to no contact with his pilots relagating those duties to his Air Commander (usually a Captain) and his staff.  In the case of ME1, we saw two "chains" of command that both terminated with Shepard.  There was the normal Normandy Crew Chain of Command terminating with Joker and Pressly at the very top, and then you had the Marine/Operational Chain of command (which was far more informal by necessity given the alien 'mission specialists' on board) terminating with Ashely and Alenko.

This should have been done the same way for ME2 but for some reason wasn't. 

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Yannkee wrote...

So it will a good opportunity to settle the problem, with Miranda. She knows very well Cerberus so I don't think it will be very difficult for them to get rid of TIM.

Like others have said, I wouldn't be too sure.  TIM is very good at not getting his own hands dirty even in cases like this....and he is very arrogant and extremely vindictive.

-Polaris

[Caihn]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

So it will a good opportunity to settle the problem, with Miranda. She knows very well Cerberus so I don't think it will be very difficult for them to get rid of TIM.

Underestimating TIM is folly. The Alliance tried it, and he ended up creating Cerberus as a result.
I'm not saying ousting him will be impossible (especially if he ends up becoming a problem for ParaShep) but your post reads as though eliminating TIM will be no more difficult than say, eliminating Fist.

Shepard have access to EDI's data now, Miranda knows a lot of things. I don't say they will underestimate TIM, but I think Shepard & Miranda will be the most serious threat TIM will have to encounter.

[Nightwriter]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think it's important to distinguish leadership, from management, from administration.  The reason that Mirada seems to be a good XO is that she is stellar at two of the three things above that you'd expect from a military XO, i.e. Management and Administration.  I grant that the line between management and leadership is fuzzy at best, but it's there.  I would also strongly dissent with your notion that it's not the XO's job to inspire and motivate.  The XO on a military ship has to act not only as the captain's right hand but also in the captain's absence, and that means personal leadership is most definately required and indeed is the most important part (along with superior management) of being an XO.

This is why being an XO in the modern Navies of the World is the penultimate step before becoming a ship's captain (of any displacement) yourself....and a downcheck at being an XO will mean you will never command a ship even if you retire as an admiral.

Again, I feel we need to draw the line between reality and fiction here. This game is about Shepard inspiring people, doing the impossible and succeeding where all others would have failed. You therefore have to create an environment where no one else has the skills Shepard has, or can do what Shepard can do.

The game is not meant to perfectly duplicate realistic military procedure. If it were, the number of inconsistencies and implausibilities it contains would, yes, be staggering.

[IanPolaris]

Yannkee wrote...

Shepard have access to EDI's data now, Miranda knows a lot of things. I don't say they will underestimate TIM, but I think Shepard & Miranda will be the most serious threat TIM will have to encounter.

No question, but bear in mind that TIM (ultimately) built EDI and has (or should have) a very good idea of what she knows and what her capacities are (and he implies as much on more than one occassion).  That means that TIM has (potentially) a rather nasty hold on Miranda as opposed to Garrus and one that TIM knows will inhibit Miranda's effectiveness.

-Polaris

[Nightwriter]

IanPolaris wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

In all honesty, I can't see Miranda being any worse an XO or "leader" than Pressly. I mean he seemed to me like he pretty much knew how ships were run, and that's it.

I feel we should accept the distinctions between reality and fiction here. Miranda isn't meant to be the quintessential military leader. Dealing with people is Shepard's job, and the whole point of the game and your place in it.

In truth a lot of this discussion is due to some very bad writing both in ME1 and in ME2.  In ME1, having Pressly be the distant XO that barely spoke to the marine (and alien operatives attached to the marines) is not so far fetched.  There are Carriers where the Captain (usually a rear admiral) has next to no contact with his pilots relagating those duties to his Air Commander (usually a Captain) and his staff.  In the case of ME1, we saw two "chains" of command that both terminated with Shepard.  There was the normal Normandy Crew Chain of Command terminating with Joker and Pressly at the very top, and then you had the Marine/Operational Chain of command (which was far more informal by necessity given the alien 'mission specialists' on board) terminating with Ashely and Alenko.

This should have been done the same way for ME2 but for some reason wasn't. 

-Polaris

Well the Normandy SR2 is a civilian ship. And the entire mission was a Cerberus operation, not a military one.

[IanPolaris]

Nightwriter wrote...

Again, I feel we need to draw the line between reality and fiction here. This game is about Shepard inspiring people, doing the impossible and succeeding where all others would have failed. You therefore have to create an environment where no one else has the skills Shepard has, or can do what Shepard can do.

The game is not meant to perfectly duplicate realistic military procedure. If it were, the number of inconsistencies and implausibilities it contains would, yes, be staggering.

I see your point, but things should be called by their proper names.  If you want to ask if Miranda would be a good XO or bad XO, we have to agree on what being an XO actually means, and the only reasonable standard that I think we can agree on is the military one (since Shepard is from a military background and this branch of Cerberus is definately run on at least paramilitary lines).  If, OTOH, we go with the fiction and say that an XO should be nothing more than a gloried Operations Officer, then yes I could agree that Miranda fits the bill perfectly.  However, that is not what is generally meant when the term "XO" is used.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Nightwriter wrote...

Well the Normandy SR2 is a civilian ship. And the entire mission was a Cerberus operation, not a military one.

The Lawson cell, and the SR-2 Normandy and Crew are most definately organized along paramilitary lines at the very least.  Thus I think it's fair to use the military standard.

-Polaris

[MrnDvlDg161]

Here is a general question --- out of the two Cereberus agents who would you most likely have no problem with having your back ---



Jacob or Miranda

[MrnDvlDg161]

Besides if you started that military stuff, I defiantly know that you'd loose a few on your team.



Jack would make a break for it. Thane would laugh at you. Grunt would at some point challenge your authority to be No.1 for the thrill of possibly killing a real threat to him. I can't see you ordering Samara too long, she would punch you through the hull. The only people that would stick around would be Garrus and Jacob.



If you used your secret code and got that merc guy... well who knows what he would do. Probably stick around if you kept paying him.

[PsyrenY]

Yannkee wrote...

Shepard have access to EDI's data now,
Miranda knows a lot of things. I don't say they will underestimate TIM,
but I think Shepard & Miranda will be the most serious threat TIM
will have to encounter.

I agree that EDI will be their biggest asset in taking on TIM (especially since EDI is guaranteed to survive, unlocked, to ME3.) But the chances that TIM did not have any kind of contingency plan in place for her unshackling are pretty low.

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Here is a general question --- out of the two Cereberus agents who would you most likely have no problem with having your back ---

Jacob or Miranda

That depends on a number of factors. After all, you can end the game with Miranda loyal and Jacob disloyal.

[IanPolaris]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Here is a general question --- out of the two Cereberus agents who would you most likely have no problem with having your back ---

Jacob or Miranda

Jacob without question.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  With the caveat that all other things (such as loyalty) are equal.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 19 août 2010 - 04:04 .

[Caihn]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Here is a general question --- out of the two Cereberus agents who would you most likely have no problem with having your back ---

Jacob or Miranda

I have no problem with both. They both earned Shepard's trust.
But I prefer Miranda if she is romanced, because she really care about him, and would risk her life to save Shepard. (and she's also more capable)

Modifié par Yannkee, 19 août 2010 - 04:09 .

[tonnactus]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Here is a general question --- out of the two Cereberus agents who would you most likely have no problem with having your back ---

Jacob or Miranda

Jacob was a honest guy right at the start as far as the player know.So this decision is clear for me.
And he didnt read my emails.

Modifié par tonnactus, 19 août 2010 - 04:28 .

[Ieldra]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...
Here is a general question --- out of the two Cereberus agents who would you most likely have no problem with having your back ---

If you ask it that way - Jacob is the incarnation of "dependable". But he's also stolid. If you ask who I'd rather have leading a separate operation, then it's Miranda.

Having said that, Shepard, Miranda and Jacob are my favorite team. And not for gameplay reasons.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 août 2010 - 04:11 .

[IanPolaris]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Besides if you started that military stuff, I defiantly know that you'd loose a few on your team.

Jack would make a break for it. Thane would laugh at you. Grunt would at some point challenge your authority to be No.1 for the thrill of possibly killing a real threat to him. I can't see you ordering Samara too long, she would punch you through the hull. The only people that would stick around would be Garrus and Jacob.

If you used your secret code and got that merc guy... well who knows what he would do. Probably stick around if you kept paying him.

*sigh*  I am not talking about '"using all that military stuff" in the actual leadership.  I am using "that military stuff" to evaluate revealed leadership skills.  Point in fact (and contrary to hollywood hype), a large part of military leadership training is helping candidates learn how to deal with troops like "Jack" (although I agree that Jack is a pretty extreme case) or "Grunt".  A lot of it is knowing when to push and how hard and when to back off, and it's as much an art as it is a science (but it is a skill that can be learned and trained).  In fact, the officer that relies on his bars to get people to do what they are told is not a good officer.

One of the first lessons we always drummed into our candidates (and this definately applies to Grunt and Jack) was this: Never, ever, give an order that you know will not be obeyed.

I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out why this is so and why it is fundamental to good solid military leadership (and it's not something that holywood gets about military leaders).

-Polaris

[MrnDvlDg161]

IanPolaris wrote...

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Besides if you started that military stuff, I defiantly know that you'd loose a few on your team.

Jack would make a break for it. Thane would laugh at you. Grunt would at some point challenge your authority to be No.1 for the thrill of possibly killing a real threat to him. I can't see you ordering Samara too long, she would punch you through the hull. The only people that would stick around would be Garrus and Jacob.

If you used your secret code and got that merc guy... well who knows what he would do. Probably stick around if you kept paying him.

*sigh*  I am not talking about '"using all that military stuff" in the actual leadership.  I am using "that military stuff" to evaluate revealed leadership skills.  Point in fact (and contrary to hollywood hype), a large part of military leadership training is helping candidates learn how to deal with troops like "Jack" (although I agree that Jack is a pretty extreme case) or "Grunt".  A lot of it is knowing when to push and how hard and when to back off, and it's as much an art as it is a science (but it is a skill that can be learned and trained).  In fact, the officer that relies on his bars to get people to do what they are told is not a good officer.

One of the first lessons we always drummed into our candidates (and this definately applies to Grunt and Jack) was this: Never, ever, give an order that you know will not be obeyed.

I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out why this is so and why it is fundamental to good solid military leadership (and it's not something that holywood gets about military leaders).

-Polaris

So yeah. The Military Stuff.

Well all that drumming sure goes to smithereens once the boot  LT  gets his jungles wet in the field eh? lol. 

The process will turn off a Merc. In this case this Dirty Dozen crew is not there to pop salutes and lean-back-n'-strut up and down the catwalks.  Once Shepard goes around and puts his Captain Crunch hat on its all over for keeping the unit in tow, the only thing thats really keeping it in place is the thought of something worse happeneing to them via the Reapers.

Without the reapers?

You would loose about half the crew.

[MrnDvlDg161]

I posed the question for a consensus.

In my own oppinion,  having seen  Jacob back his crew members even when Miranda was trying to imply blame suggests to me that after earning his loyalty, his strong Alliance training would seal a good backing.

Of course I know that either one of them can end up being  disloyal...but what did disloyalty really imply? It just simply meant they weren't as fond of you because you didn't go out of your way to kiss their butt.  Lets be honest here.  This was a scheme of  " Well if you didn't do this for ME then to heck with you!".  There was some selfish elements in this mechanic. If I have to choose a side because you were simply wrong with the argument you let your self get in to, that shouldn't be the reason to throw away loyalty!  I mean wow!  So you might have told Miranda to back off against Jack... how fragile this loyalty buisness is! 

[Kronner]

Optimystic_X wrote...

My one problem picking her over Garrus is that TIM has a string tied to her - i.e. he knows where Oriana is. So he can get probably get her to betray me even post-resignation. Garrus has no such ties.

That YOU know of. TIM might know more.
Seriously, some people in this thread interpret ANYTHING Miranda does or says in the worst way possible (for her obviously). Next thing I know, we may see someone saying she sucks as a leader because her outfit is sexist and male squadmates may be distracted.