479 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

So yeah. The Military Stuff.

Well all that drumming sure goes to smithereens once the boot  LT  gets his jungles wet in the field eh? lol. 

The process will turn off a Merc. In this case this Dirty Dozen crew is not there to pop salutes and lean-back-n'-strut up and down the catwalks.  Once Shepard goes around and puts his Captain Crunch hat on its all over for keeping the unit in tow, the only thing thats really keeping it in place is the thought of something worse happeneing to them via the Reapers.

Without the reapers?

You would loose about half the crew.

I think you turned of your brain when you read military.  Seriously.  Much of good solider leadership training is knowing when NOT to push, which is exactly what you are saying. 

Sheesh.  Try reading what I post for once.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...

That YOU know of. TIM might know more.
Seriously, some people in this thread interpret ANYTHING Miranda does or says in the worst way possible (for her obviously). Next thing I know, we may see someone saying she sucks as a leader because her outfit is sexist and male squadmates may be distracted.

And dark matter might suddernly cause all the galaxy to die and butterflies might fly out of my backside.

Here is my point:  With Miranda, you are dealing with a KNOWN problem and a KNOWN weakness which should give paragon Sheps pause.  With Garrus you don't have that problem to the best of your knowledge....and that's the only fair way to make such a judgement.

That's not interpreting everything bad about Miranda.  That's just common sense.

-Polaris

[MrnDvlDg161]

Its not crucial in the end.



All I'm saying is once that military factor kicks in, you'll just have to find more Ashley Williams types is all.

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...
And dark matter might suddernly cause all the galaxy to die and butterflies might fly out of my backside.

Here is my point:  With Miranda, you are dealing with a KNOWN problem and a KNOWN weakness which should give paragon Sheps pause.  With Garrus you don't have that problem to the best of your knowledge....and that's the only fair way to make such a judgement.

That's not interpreting everything bad about Miranda.  That's just common sense.

-Polaris

What problem or weakness? TIM goes after her sister and he is dead man. She knows so much about him and Cerberus he cannot do anything (pretty much the same case with Grayson - TIM deal about leaving Sanders alone).
Common sense dictates she IS a good leader, the game - writers say so. Obviously there is some bias with people blaming Miranda for the Wilson betrayal, biotic bubble line and other stuff that you guys interpret as you see fit, which is fine, but it does not make your interpretation 100% correct.

Modifié par Kronner, 19 août 2010 - 04:29 .

[MrnDvlDg161]

Well did she not prove her self with managing the fire team on the Collector Ship? Bingo. She fits the bill of her quasi-command element.



Problem is, its still unclear as to whether she'll act on behalf of the Illusive Man when the right time comes despite her seemingly truthful loyalty. Its probably for the plot of ME3...but that's speculation.



I don't get that from Jacob as to how they wrote him up to be.



However she does her job, was tested, and field approved.

[PWENER]

What happens when Miranda isn't in charge...



What happens when Miri IS in charge...

[Kronner]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Well did she not prove her self with managing the fire team on the Collector Ship? Bingo. She fits the bill of her quasi-command element.

Problem is, its still unclear as to whether she'll act on behalf of the Illusive Man when the right time comes despite her seemingly truthful loyalty. Its probably for the plot of ME3...but that's speculation.

I don't get that from Jacob as to how they wrote him up to be.

However she does her job, was tested, and field approved.

So she approved destruction of the Collector base just to gain Sheps loyalty? Then I guess TIM just pretends to be pissed off.

[MrnDvlDg161]

Kronner wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
And dark matter might suddernly cause all the galaxy to die and butterflies might fly out of my backside.

Here is my point:  With Miranda, you are dealing with a KNOWN problem and a KNOWN weakness which should give paragon Sheps pause.  With Garrus you don't have that problem to the best of your knowledge....and that's the only fair way to make such a judgement.

That's not interpreting everything bad about Miranda.  That's just common sense.

-Polaris

What problem or weakness? TIM goes after her sister and he is dead man. She knows so much about him and Cerberus he cannot do anything (pretty much the same case with Grayson - TIM deal about leaving Sanders alone).
Common sense dictates she IS a good leader, the game - writers say so. Obviously there is some bias with people blaming Miranda for the Wilson betrayal, biotic bubble line and other stuff that you guys interpret as you see fit, which is fine, but it does not make your interpretation 100% correct.

Depending upon how someone played the game,  Shepard made more cut throat decisions than that! So the Wilson affair is rather miniscule. 

On behalf of the bubble line... I already knew she wasn't fit for that job compared to Samara or Jack. It was somewhat obvious to me,  Jack's whole existance was based around being a Biotic prodigy with some illegal science/abuse... and Samra was simply all about biotics.   Miranda wasn't --- she was limited to what her augmentation gave. You can be a good leader and lack skills in certain departments hense this is why you have a team.

And who cares about Wilson anyway --- he was like one of those unamed dudes on Star Trek away teams that would get shot first.

[MrnDvlDg161]

So she approved destruction of the Collector base just to gain Sheps loyalty? Then I guess TIM just pretends to be pissed off.

Ah... she didn't have any control over what Shepard was going to do at that time.  That was all him --- who was going to have an argument with the Collectors on their butts and time running out?  What I'm saying is, she's a trained infiltrator/spy. Made to look good, sound good, and go with the program until such time as her duty tells her otherwise.

Whether its pretending to be Shepard's mate, ship crew member or anything else.   At least this is my view of it.

Also remember that even EDI has protocals and programs that she didn't even have access to that the Illusive Man did have.  It is still a Cerebus ship with Cerebus crew.

...having said all of this, I should hope it isn't the case but it wouldn't be surprising if it turned out so --- feel me?  My two choices of a new Li  were Tali and Miranda as I saw them as multi-layered characters that would bring some dramatic enterprise in the plot.  So I would hope that Miranda wasn't some hard core sleeper agent at the end of the day but surely you can see how that can be a possibilty?

Modifié par MrnDvlDg161, 19 août 2010 - 04:47 .

[klossen4]

i be disapointed if miranda stabs you in the back i want a surprise betrayer instead.

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...
What problem or weakness? TIM goes after her sister and he is dead man. She knows so much about him and Cerberus he cannot do anything (pretty much the same case with Grayson - TIM deal about leaving Sanders alone).
Common sense dictates she IS a good leader, the game - writers say so. Obviously there is some bias with people blaming Miranda for the Wilson betrayal, biotic bubble line and other stuff that you guys interpret as you see fit, which is fine, but it does not make your interpretation 100% correct.

TIM knows where Orianna is and MIranda doesn't.  Worse, all communication is routed through Cerberus filters which means TIM controls what information you get and don't get (at least for the immediate future...I am sure EDI can fix this problem).

That means that TIM can kidnap or even kill  Oriana (or simly return her to her 'father') before Miranda even knows what's happened, and no one knows how to get to TIM...not even Miranda since if TIM is smart (and he is), he'll change locations the moment Miranda turns coat.

-Polaris

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...

TIM knows where Orianna is and MIranda doesn't.  Worse, all communication is routed through Cerberus filters which means TIM controls what information you get and don't get (at least for the immediate future...I am sure EDI can fix this problem).

That means that TIM can kidnap or even kill  Oriana (or simly return her to her 'father') before Miranda even knows what's happened, and no one knows how to get to TIM...not even Miranda since if TIM is smart (and he is), he'll change locations the moment Miranda turns coat.

-Polaris

He does that and Cerberus will pay. Miranda was (assuming you beat the game) one of its top agents, she knows her stuff. Her sister is not worth the damage she can inflict on Cerberus. Furthermore, how does this affect her as a potential XO.

Modifié par Kronner, 19 août 2010 - 05:06 .

[IanPolaris]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...
Depending upon how someone played the game,  Shepard made more cut throat decisions than that! So the Wilson affair is rather miniscule. 

Not really actually.  Even a renegade Shepard has regard for his squadmates.  A renegade Shep wouldn't especially be bothered by Miranda blowing Wilson's head off, but doing so without questioning him and without remorse when it's her own immediate subordinate shows a brutality that is inconsistant with good leadership.  [Honestly much of the Renegade Shep is inconsistant with good leadership too but Renegade Shep has the "Rule of Kewl" to make up for it apparently.]

On behalf of the bubble line... I already knew she wasn't fit for that job compared to Samara or Jack. It was somewhat obvious to me,  Jack's whole existance was based around being a Biotic prodigy with some illegal science/abuse... and Samra was simply all about biotics.   Miranda wasn't --- she was limited to what her augmentation gave. You can be a good leader and lack skills in certain departments hense this is why you have a team.

Once more you completely miss the point.  The issue I have is not that Miranda is not the best biotic for the job (which is obvious anyway).  That has no bearing on her leadership ability or insecurities one way or the other.  Rather she can't keep her trap shut when the most suitable member of the team has already volunteered, and instead volunteers herself to do it knowing she isn't the best person in the job.  Sometimes being a leader means knowing when to shut up.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...

He does that and Cerberus will pay. Miranda was (assuming you beat the game) one of its top agents, she knows her stuff. Her sister is not worth the damage she can inflict on Cerberus. Furthermore, how does this affect her as a potential XO.

Just how do you think they will manage that?  EDI explains in great detail that even high ranking operatives in Cerberus have no or next to no knowledge of any activity in any other operational cell.  The point is that even this possibility reflects an undersirable hold that can potentially hinder Miranda's effectiveness in a command position.

-Polaris

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...

Just how do you think they will manage that?  EDI explains in great detail that even high ranking operatives in Cerberus have no or next to no knowledge of any activity in any other operational cell.  The point is that even this possibility reflects an undersirable hold that can potentially hinder Miranda's effectiveness in a command position.

-Polaris

That's like saying Spacer Shepard sucks as a Commander because TIM can kidnap his mommy.

As for Cerberus, obviously they CAN be hit hard (just read Retribution) and you can bet Miranda knows a lot of Cerberus secrets.

Modifié par Kronner, 19 août 2010 - 05:15 .

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...

That's like saying Spacer Shepard sucks as a Commander because TIM can kidnap his mommy.

As for Cerberus, obviously they CAN be hit hard (just read Retribution) and you can bet Miranda knows a lot of Cerberus secrets.

No you are conflating the issues.  This particular issue has nothing to do with Miranda's leadership.  This is an issue of Miranda's suitability for being an XO because of the pressure that TIM can inflict on her.  It's like failing a security check in the real world.

No one is saying that Cerberus can't be hit hard, but is it really wise to put/keep Miranda in a command position when she is so vunerable to TIM's extortion?  (That is why security checks are done for key jobs both in the military and civilian sectors of govt).

-Polaris

[PsyrenY]

Kronner wrote...

That YOU know of. TIM might know more.
Seriously, some people in this thread interpret ANYTHING Miranda does or says in the worst way possible (for her obviously). Next thing I know, we may see someone saying she sucks as a leader because her outfit is sexist and male squadmates may be distracted.

Considering even HE had no info on Garrus, I'm going to go with a no on that.

Also, please note that Ian and I are not commenting on Miranda's leadership skills. Obviously she is a capable leader - she is a good choice for both fire teams, heads up a Cerberus Cell etc. What we are concerned with is external to her as a person.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 19 août 2010 - 05:47 .

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...

No you are conflating the issues.  This particular issue has nothing to do with Miranda's leadership.  This is an issue of Miranda's suitability for being an XO because of the pressure that TIM can inflict on her.  It's like failing a security check in the real world.

No one is saying that Cerberus can't be hit hard, but is it really wise to put/keep Miranda in a command position when she is so vunerable to TIM's extortion?  (That is why security checks are done for key jobs both in the military and civilian sectors of govt).

-Polaris

Really, how is that ANY different from Spacer Shepard's mommy? Everyone has a weakness, the key is to not make exploiting it worth it for potential enemy. The only thing I can see that can keep Miranda from XO position is if she and Shepard are ever married.

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...

Really, how is that ANY different from Spacer Shepard's mommy? Everyone has a weakness, the key is to not make exploiting it worth it for potential enemy. The only thing I can see that can keep Miranda from XO position is if she and Shepard are ever married.

I'll tell you how.  Space-Shepard's Mommy is (using the Royal Navy Parlance) a Captain of the List, i.e. an extremely senior captain/fleet captain that has been pre-approved for Flag Rank.  That means she is quite capable of taking care of herself and any overt Cerberus kiddapping of her would represent an unacceptable logistical and political risk especially given that Cerberus relies on it's cozy relationships within the Alliance military.  There is only so many "Admiral Kohoku's" Cerberus can get away with (and after ME 1 they are at their limit).

Even setting aside that, Shepard's mommy is also an exceedingly strong willed woman who wouldn't want Shepard to shirk his duty and obligations for the many to defend her, and Shepard shows no sign of this sort of weakness anyway.

In short, Spacer Shep's Mommy is too strong, too well protected, and has far, far too high a profile for Cerberus to get away with it.  Oriana, OTOH is a completely obscure 19 year-old (by design) which makes her very vunerable.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 19 août 2010 - 06:10 .

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...

I'll tell you how.  Space-Shepard's Mommy is (using the Royal Navy Parlance) a Captain of the List, i.e. an extremely senior captain/fleet captain that has been pre-approved for Flag Rank.  That means she is quite capable of taking care of herself and any overt Cerberus kiddapping of her would represent an unacceptable logistical and political risk especially given that Cerberus relies on it's cozy relationships within the Alliance military.  There is only so many "Admiral Kohoku's" Cerberus can get away with (and after ME 1 they are at their limit).

Even setting aside that, Shepard's mommy is also an exceedingly strong willed woman who wouldn't want Shepard to shirk his duty and obligations for the many to defend her, and Shepard shows no sign of this sort of weakness anyway.

In short, Spacer Shep's Mommy is too strong, too well protected, and has far, far too high a profile for Cerberus to get away with it.  Oriana, OTOH is a completely obscure 19 year-old (by design) which makes her very vunerable.

-Polaris

Well, if Miranda was running the show you would have a point. But if she is merely XO, Shepard is the man. Kidnapping her sister is just as stupid as going after Sheps mother. Cerberus would pay much more than they would gain. That is the point.

[MrnDvlDg161]

"Once more you completely miss the point. The issue I have is not that Miranda is not the best biotic for the job (which is obvious anyway). That has no bearing on her leadership ability or insecurities one way or the other. Rather she can't keep her trap shut when the most suitable member of the team has already volunteered, and instead volunteers herself to do it knowing she isn't the best person in the job. Sometimes being a leader means knowing when to shut up."



I wasn't referring to you or this continuation of the subject of Leadership. I was referring to another poster's assertion about her actions in general.



I've done moved on with the other subject and said my piece.

[Kronner]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

"Once more you completely miss the point. The issue I have is not that Miranda is not the best biotic for the job (which is obvious anyway). That has no bearing on her leadership ability or insecurities one way or the other. Rather she can't keep her trap shut when the most suitable member of the team has already volunteered, and instead volunteers herself to do it knowing she isn't the best person in the job. Sometimes being a leader means knowing when to shut up."

I wasn't referring to you or this continuation of the subject of Leadership. I was referring to another poster's assertion about her actions in general.

I've done moved on with the other subject and said my piece.

Or MAYBE she just suggests you do not have to pick Samara (for example for players who like to have Samara as their squadmate) because she is NOT the only one that can get you through. You guys are reading WAY too much into her line. She is not wrong when she says it.

[Spartas Husky]

damn I go to sleep and BLAM, almost 11 pages come up. wow lol