479 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

Kronner wrote...

Well, if Miranda was running the show you would have a point. But if she is merely XO, Shepard is the man. Kidnapping her sister is just as stupid as going after Sheps mother. Cerberus would pay much more than they would gain. That is the point.

Except Cerberus doesn't have to do a thing. Miranda's dad is the one that wants Oriana, not Cerberus. TIM's hands are completely clean.

Hell, TIM can just feed Miranda a false lead that her sister is in danger, and bam, Shepard/Miranda are halfway across the galaxy on a goose chase.

Kronner wrote...

Or MAYBE she just suggests you do not
have to pick Samara (for example for players who like to have Samara as
their squadmate) because she is NOT the only one that can get you
through. You guys are reading WAY too much into her line. She is not
wrong when she says it.

She is very wrong, and she herself says (before the SM) that she is still human and makes mistakes. "When I make mistakes, the consequences are dire" - that my friend is called foreshadowing.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 19 août 2010 - 06:44 .

[IanPolaris]

Vulgus Presencia wrote...

The objective was to hold the shield up. Which all of the biotics did. So Miranda was right. All the biotics held the shield up and got Shepard to safety. The blast at the end made by Samara and Jack was just a creative problem solving on their part done with their left over energy (energy that the others didn’t have because their not used to being pushed to their biotic limits)  I’m sorry but you have to be pretty stupid not to pick the 600 year old biotic, or the biotic woman that took out 3-4 large mechs. Unloyal  Miranda can also lead both fire teams without getting anyone killed.  Miranda’s advice had to be ambiguous because if she told you the right choices off the bat then no one would die, which is what the developers wanted in order to get a more unique play through and experience.

Incorrect.  The objective was to SHIELD THE TEAM which means to keep them all alive.  Miranda fails and so does every biotic except a loyal Samara, Morinth, or Jack.

-Polaris

Edit:  Unloyal Miranda does NOT save the Techie, only a loyal Miranda does that.  The only reason an Unloyal Miranda survives as second fire team leader is because she is given plot armor so she can direct Shepard as to which team mates to choose.  It's pure BW plot-cheese.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 19 août 2010 - 06:46 .

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...

Well, if Miranda was running the show you would have a point. But if she is merely XO, Shepard is the man. Kidnapping her sister is just as stupid as going after Sheps mother. Cerberus would pay much more than they would gain. That is the point.

Cerberus doesn't have to do anything.  Just the hint that Miranda's dad might suddenly learn of Oriana's new home is a wonderful source of extortion against Miranda and a wonderful way to put a monkeywrench into the disloyal and ungrateful paragon Shep (from TIM's PoV).  That's what makes Miranda possibly an unacceptable security risk to be XO.

-Polaris

[PsyrenY]

Disloyal Miranda surviving the second fire team while failing the first can be explained. She's good at avoiding fire and bad at focusing it. So it's not total plotmancy.



I agree she fails as a superbiotic though. Again, I point to her own admission that she still makes mistakes.

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...

Or MAYBE she just suggests you do not have to pick Samara (for example for players who like to have Samara as their squadmate) because she is NOT the only one that can get you through. You guys are reading WAY too much into her line. She is not wrong when she says it.

Except that's not what she says and it's not how she presents it.  When Samara explains (or confirms) that a biotic shield might work and says that she can do it and would be willing to, Miranda without prompting says, "I can do it too"

This isn't a person giving Shepard an option.  It's an insecure person who wants to feel important by saying, "Me too".  She then compounds the error by saying that in theory any biotic can do it.

Even if that were true (and of course it turns out it's not), you'd want the best and strongest biotic available to do the job, and that would be either Samara/Morinth or Jack (whichever is loyal).  This is Captain Obvious stuff.  Given that the very best candidate has already volunteered, Miranda needs to keep her trap shut.

-Polaris

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...

Cerberus doesn't have to do anything.  Just the hint that Miranda's dad might suddenly learn of Oriana's new home is a wonderful source of extortion against Miranda and a wonderful way to put a monkeywrench into the disloyal and ungrateful paragon Shep (from TIM's PoV).  That's what makes Miranda possibly an unacceptable security risk to be XO.

-Polaris

Geez, just the threat of Miranda giving locations of Cerberus bases, people etc. to Council/Alliance is enough to prevent ANY manipulation with her sister. That is blatantly obvious and you just ignore it for some reason.

IanPolaris wrote...

Except that's not
what she says and it's not how she presents it.  When Samara explains
(or confirms) that a biotic shield might work and says that she can do
it and would be willing to, Miranda without prompting says, "I can do
it too"

This isn't a person giving Shepard an option.  It's an
insecure person who wants to feel important by saying, "Me too".  She
then compounds the error by saying that in theory any biotic can do it.

Even
if that were true (and of course it turns out it's not), you'd want the
best and strongest biotic available to do the job, and that would be
either Samara/Morinth or Jack (whichever is loyal).  This is Captain
Obvious stuff.  Given that the very best candidate has already
volunteered, Miranda needs to keep her trap shut.

-Polaris

You are ASSUMING loyal Samara, why? The default state is unloyal Samara. In that case Miranda does the same job.

Modifié par Kronner, 19 août 2010 - 06:55 .

[DieHardYankee26]

IanPolaris wrote...


Edit:  Unloyal Miranda does NOT save the Techie, only a loyal Miranda does that.  The only reason an Unloyal Miranda survives as second fire team leader is because she is given plot armor so she can direct Shepard as to which team mates to choose.  It's pure BW plot-cheese.

Someone just brought that whole Miranda says the lines thing to everyone's attention a few pages ago, and now you're just passing it off as fact? Really? We don't know why she makes it through, but if people are going to treat these characters like they are real, then it has to be done all the way. She made it through because of her leadership skills. If people are going to use writing and voiceacting as reasons people survived, why bother with the argument? Everything in the game was written by Bioware, they could have had Garrus say the stuff, they could have had Jacob say it. They picked Miranda, maybe for no reason, but regardless, if we're going to look at this from an inside the game perspective, you have to assume she had the leadership skills to get them out and noone else did without being loyal.

[IanPolaris]

Vulgus Presencia wrote...

Yes they all fail but they still got shepard to the end.

No.  Shepard by his sheer force of will and leadership ability salvaged an overall mission sucess from the Biotic failure.  The bottom line is this:  The Biotic's mission was clear:  PROTECT ALL TEAM MEMERS.

PERIOD.

Shepard does suceed in his sub-mission, but if Miranda was the biotic, he does so in spite of Miranda's own failure.

-Polaris

[Nightwriter]

She says, "I could do it too. Theoretically any biotic could do it."

The second statement supercedes the first. If she had said, "I could do it too", and that's it, you'd be right.

Instead she goes on to make the statement encompass everyone, making it not just about her. She is merely saying that any biotic is capable of a mass effect field bubble.

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...

Vulgus Presencia wrote...

Yes they all fail but they still got shepard to the end.

No.  Shepard by his sheer force of will and leadership ability salvaged an overall mission sucess from the Biotic failure.  The bottom line is this:  The Biotic's mission was clear:  PROTECT ALL TEAM MEMERS.

PERIOD.

Shepard does suceed in his sub-mission, but if Miranda was the biotic, he does so in spite of Miranda's own failure.

-Polaris

Mission is clear - Destroy the base no matter what.

Seriously you are so biased against Miranda you MAKE SH+T UP in obvious attempt to make her look bad.

[IanPolaris]

DieHardYankee26 wrote...

Someone just brought that whole Miranda says the lines thing to everyone's attention a few pages ago, and now you're just passing it off as fact? Really? We don't know why she makes it through, but if people are going to treat these characters like they are real, then it has to be done all the way. She made it through because of her leadership skills. If people are going to use writing and voiceacting as reasons people survived, why bother with the argument? Everything in the game was written by Bioware, they could have had Garrus say the stuff, they could have had Jacob say it. They picked Miranda, maybe for no reason, but regardless, if we're going to look at this from an inside the game perspective, you have to assume she had the leadership skills to get them out and noone else did without being loyal.

Sorry but it is a fact and it's easy enough to confirm with a Hex editor.  Look at the dialog lines.  The ONLY person that has dialog lines directing Shepard to choose team members during the suicide mission is Miranda.

That makes her plot-armor, pretty much a confirmed fact.

-Polaris

[PsyrenY]

Kronner wrote...

Mission is clear - Destroy the base no matter what.

How does losing people help accomplish that objective?

[MrnDvlDg161]

No...

No..

"Or MAYBE she just suggests you do not have to pick Samara (for example
for players who like to have Samara as their squadmate) because she is
NOT the only one that can get you through. You guys are reading WAY too
much into her line. She is not wrong when she says it."


I was referring to the choice you had to make.  Just simply talking about Miranda the character. There was a suggestion made about her worth because she dropped the ball with the biotic curtain and my point was, even though she was a good team leader,  she wasn't the best biotic for the job so its not really her fault --- it fell on you --- the gamer --- controlling Shepard.

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...
Mission is clear - Destroy the base no matter what.

Seriously you are so biased against Miranda you MAKE SH+T UP in obvious attempt to make her look bad.

The overall mission is clear.

Each segment has it's own objective and each important team member has their own part to play (i.e. their own objective).

The objective of the biotic escort is made perfectly clear both in dialog and in your journal.  He or she is supposed to PROTECT THE TEAM.  If the seekers carry away one or more squad members, then the Biotic has FAILED that objective.

It really is that cut-and-dried.  There isn't any "bias against Miranda just to make her look bad".  I actually like the Miranda character on the whole, but I don'tlie to myself about her faults or what kind of leadership (or lack of) she shows throughout the game.

-Polaris

[Kronner]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Mission is clear - Destroy the base no matter what.

How does losing people help accomplish that objective?

What does it matter, Miranda can get you through so you can continue. Casualties are expected. It is SUICIDE mission, not a field trip.

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...

It really is that cut-and-dried.  There isn't any "bias against Miranda just to make her look bad".  I actually like the Miranda character on the whole, but I don'tlie to myself about her faults or what kind of leadership (or lack of) she shows throughout the game.

-Polaris

LOL
That is why:

a) You assume loyal Samara, Jack - this is not default state, but a bonus not required for finishing the game
You say she says "I can do it too" because she is attention ****

Not biased at all.

Modifié par Kronner, 19 août 2010 - 07:04 .

[Raizo]

I like Miranda as XO of the Normandy. I don't really like a lot of her suggestions or the way she somtimes questions Shepards decissions but it's not like she has ever tried to take controI of the mission/overthrow Shepard, she just has a different perspective than he does and I do think it is good to have a second in command who looks at things from a different perspective from the commanding officer, thier strengths could complement your weaknesses and vice versa, they can make you become aware of problems and solutions you might not have noticed on your own or if you had an XO who thought just like you and agreed with everything you said.

Look at Battlestar Gallactica, Adama and Saul Tigh were very different people and had very different ways of running things and yet they seemed to complement each other very well. Heck there were quite a few time when Tigh saved the day ( even though I spent most of the series thinking he was an A**hole ).

So yeah, Miranda gets my vote as good XO for the Normandy, she may not do things the way I miight do them and it is worrying that she shows allegance to Cerebus and TIM ( although she quit at the end of ME2 ) but she will get the job done, the only other person on the Normandy that is capable of leading the mission is Garrus. Would garrus be a better XO than Miranda, maybe and maybe not but that is not what this topic is about, at the end of teh day Miranda is a good XO.

Modifié par Raizo, 19 août 2010 - 07:10 .

[IanPolaris]

Nightwriter wrote...

She says, "I could do it too. Theoretically any biotic could do it."

The second statement supercedes the first. If she had said, "I could do it too", and that's it, you'd be right.

Instead she goes on to make the statement encompass everyone, making it not just about her. She is merely saying that any biotic is capable of a mass effect field bubble.

No.  Doesn't work that way.  The second statement explains the first.  The first is a flat statement that she could do it and in fact is volunteering.  Realizing how this sounds, she then allows that perhaps other biotics might be able to do it too. It's grudging and puts lives at risk since the best person for the job has already signed up.

As for assuming default loyal, given how most people play AND given that the game strongly pushes you to do the loyalty missions, it's a reasonable assumption.  I note that even if neither Jack or Samara/Morinth are loyal then NO ONE can fulfil the biotic objective (although IC Shepard doesn't know that) which means that Miranda is still not the best one for the job.

No.  Face it.  Miranda screws this scene up by the numbers and does it high fashion.  What's worse is that she does it by making completely unforced errors driven by her own insecurities (as noted earlier in the game).  It's this that makes Miranda a questionable leader at best.

-Polaris

[PsyrenY]

At several decision points in the SM, someone has a bad idea that you are expected to ignore.

Tech expert - Jacob volunteers, despite not knowing one end of his omnitool from the other.
Fire team - Jack insults Miranda and says people won't follow her, yet she is one of the good leaders that won't get your tech killed.
Biotic - Miranda says "I could do it too" and "in theory, any biotic could" - both are partially correct at best.
Escort Normandy Crew - Miranda says "we don't have time to go back" despite nobody ever suggesting that the entire team go back.

Part of good leadership is being able to sift the wheat from the chaff - which is why the decision-making is left to Shepard.

Kronner wrote...

What does it matter, Miranda can get you
through so you can continue. Casualties are expected. It is SUICIDE
mission, not a field trip.

Suicide is a probable outcome of a suicide mission, not a desired one.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 19 août 2010 - 07:09 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Depends on what you mean by "XO". Is your XO an administrator, or a combat officer?

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...
LOL
That is why:

a) You assume loyal Samara, Jack - this is not default state, but a bonus not required for finishing the game

Actually the game pushes you very hard to get as many loyal squaddies as possible both in dialog and in the journal.  Furthermore both (and especially Samara's) missions are almost ridiculously easy to complete.  Finally, even if no one is loyal, Samara/Morinth and/or Jack are still the better (or at least as good) a choice as Miranda.  It just so happens in that case that the objective is unobtainable, but that doesn't excuse Miranda's actions regardless (especially since the difference in loyalty is not the reason Miranda presents).

You say she says "I can do it too" because she is attention ****

Not biased at all.

There is no other reasonable reason for her to open her trap.  None.  We've  explained this for pages and pages.

-Polaris

[Shotokanguy]

IanPolaris wrote...

No.  Doesn't work that way.  The second statement explains the first.  The first is a flat statement that she could do it and in fact is volunteering.  Realizing how this sounds, she then allows that perhaps other biotics might be able to do it too. It's grudging and puts lives at risk since the best person for the job has already signed up.

As for assuming default loyal, given how most people play AND given that the game strongly pushes you to do the loyalty missions, it's a reasonable assumption.  I note that even if neither Jack or Samara/Morinth are loyal then NO ONE can fulfil the biotic objective (although IC Shepard doesn't know that) which means that Miranda is still not the best one for the job.

No.  Face it.  Miranda screws this scene up by the numbers and does it high fashion.  What's worse is that she does it by making completely unforced errors driven by her own insecurities (as noted earlier in the game).  It's this that makes Miranda a questionable leader at best.

-Polaris

You're smoking something if you interpret that line as anything other than a pointer for the player that he doesn't have to pick Samara.

[PsyrenY]

Shotokanguy wrote...

You're smoking something if you interpret that line as anything other than a pointer for the player that he doesn't have to pick Samara.

It's an attempt to mislead the player (see my post above about decision points.) The SM would be cake if only the ideal people volunteered for each job. The idea is to challenge those players who don't read walkthroughs.

[Ieldra]

IanPolaris wrote...
Edit:  Unloyal Miranda does NOT save the Techie, only a loyal Miranda does that.  The only reason an Unloyal Miranda survives as second fire team leader is because she is given plot armor so she can direct Shepard as to which team mates to choose.  It's pure BW plot-cheese.

So instead of saying she is incompetent as a leader, you're now saying she *should* be incompetent in order to fit your judgment, in spite of the fact (!!!) she does survive non-loyal as the second fire team leader? For whatever the reason, it is a fact and we all try to explain facts within the reference frame of the ME universe. This one should be no exception.

BTW, you've kept this up for about 8 hours now. I wonder why. I just read your first post on page 2 and it was a lot more reasonable.

 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 août 2010 - 07:12 .