479 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Raizo wrote...

I like Miranda as XO of the Normandy. I don't really like a lot of her suggestions or the way she somtimes questions Shepards decissions but it's not like she has ever tried to take controI of the mission/overthrow Shepard, she just has a different perspective than he does and I do think it is good to have a second in command who looks at things from a different perspective from the commanding officer, thier strengths could complement your weaknesses and vice versa, they can make you become aware of problems and solutions you might not have noticed on your own or if you had an XO who thought just like you and agreed with everything you said.

In principle I agree with all of this.  I also think in time and with work on her interpersonal skills and insecurities, Miranda might eventually become a good (or at least decent) leader.  Even as a decent leader, with her stellar management and administrative skills, she'd be an excellent XO....but she's not there yet.  When the lead flies, she doesn't show she has what it takes (on camera anyway).

Look at Battlestar Gallactica, Adama and Saul Tigh were very different people and had very different ways of running things and yet they seemed to complement each other very well. Heck there were quite a few time when Tigh saved the day ( even though I spent most of the series thinking he was an A**hole ).

Tigh was a seasoned combat officer.  Miranda is not.

-Polaris

[EffectedByTheMasses]

A good second in command in my eyes should ultimately be loyal, but be able to question his/her commanding officer and do things his/her own way. Also, Miranda's authoritarian and (usually) rational attitude is a good contrast to canon Shepard, who goes around recruiting unsavory types and blowing stuff up. That way, they can add an invaluable different perspective on problems... And in doing so sometimes make all the difference.

That's why I think Miranda is a good XO. Garrus would be too loyal and unquestioning towards Shepard.

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually the game pushes you very hard to get as many loyal squaddies as possible both in dialog and in the journal.  Furthermore both (and especially Samara's) missions are almost ridiculously easy to complete.  Finally, even if no one is loyal, Samara/Morinth and/or Jack are still the better (or at least as good) a choice as Miranda.  It just so happens in that case that the objective is unobtainable, but that doesn't excuse Miranda's actions regardless (especially since the difference in loyalty is not the reason Miranda presents).

So what? It is unnecessary for game completion. You do realize some people go in without everyone loyal?
Miranda GETS you through, you can continue. That is the whole point.

IanPolaris wrote...There is no other reasonable reason for her to open her trap.  None.  We've  explained this for pages and pages.

-Polaris

Except for the fact that SOMEONE has to say that Samara is not the only one capable of doing that. Once again, you live on your island and interpret it for yourself and then present it as a fact. That is just BS at its best.

[PsyrenY]

I think Miranda is an excellent leader. My concerns are all external (i.e. TIM's ability to influence her.) Without her sister as baggage she would be perfect imho.

[Melra]

Miranda and Kaidan are my top picks for XO. Miranda is still my one and only true LI, so I might try it out with Kaidan being XO.



As long as you don't get some generic and boring character doing that job, it's all good.

[Nightwriter]

IanPolaris wrote...

No.  Doesn't work that way.  The second statement explains the first.  The first is a flat statement that she could do it and in fact is volunteering.  Realizing how this sounds, she then allows that perhaps other biotics might be able to do it too. It's grudging and puts lives at risk since the best person for the job has already signed up.

As for assuming default loyal, given how most people play AND given that the game strongly pushes you to do the loyalty missions, it's a reasonable assumption.  I note that even if neither Jack or Samara/Morinth are loyal then NO ONE can fulfil the biotic objective (although IC Shepard doesn't know that) which means that Miranda is still not the best one for the job.

No.  Face it.  Miranda screws this scene up by the numbers and does it high fashion.  What's worse is that she does it by making completely unforced errors driven by her own insecurities (as noted earlier in the game).  It's this that makes Miranda a questionable leader at best.

-Polaris

Honestly... what did you think? That they'd make it completely easy for you? That Miranda would come out and say only Samara or Jack would work, no one else, that's the way to win?

Be reasonable here. Never mind that in-game Miranda has no way of knowing that, the game is not going to hand you answers. Quite the opposite. It's going to make an effort to trip you up.

Saying that this has anything at all to do with her leadership skills or judgment is a bit unsensible. The game literally necessitates that she not be the "perfect leader" in this situation. That she not have perfect judgment.

"I could do it too" is the natural response for a person who wishes to point out that there are other candidates including themselves. You naturally list yourself first. It's what I'd say in that situation, and I can tell you it wouldn't be about insecurities. It's just instinctual.

"I like strawberries."
"I do too. A lot of other people do."

[Spartas Husky]

Damn why is everyone bashing at the cheerleader for that biotic thing.



Is like you having good knowledge of .... first aid... in "theory" any soldier can perform first aid... but is up to teh team leader to select who fits the job description better.



if there is a medic nearby, then get him, he has more specialized training.



She was just being ms. obvious.



IN "theory" any soldier is a marksman, but you dont blame the soldier who says that, if you dont pick a marine sniper scout, or a ranger who is amongst your team for the job.



In "theory" any EMT can use a defribilator.... but if you have a more experience medical personnel available then choose them.



In "theory"....the team leader can tell anyone to do anything... but is his job to pick the best for the assigned task.

[Hulk Hsieh]

I'm going to recruit Aria and she will be the perfect XO.

[EffectedByTheMasses]

Legion as XO.... that might be interesting. I mean, as an AI his rationale should be unwavering (But then again, Shepard's armor. So who knows) and if he could do digital paperwork in no time at all

[IanPolaris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

BTW, you've kept this up for about 8 hours now. I wonder why. I just read your first post on page 2 and it was a lot more reasonable.

 

If I seem "unreasonable" it's because I am dealing with unreasonable people.  The FACT is (and it is a fact as anyone with an editor can confirm by looking at the conversation files), Miranda is flaged the way she is so she can always prompt Shepard to choose squaddies.  That's it.

-Polaris

[MrnDvlDg161]

Ha --- Aria as an Li option would have been cool.

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...
Except for the fact that SOMEONE has to say that Samara is not the only one capable of doing that. Once again, you live on your island and interpret it for yourself and then present it as a fact. That is just BS at its best.

If that were her motivation, then I've have no issue at all with Miranda, but it clearly is not. If it were, she'd say, "Yes and in principle any biotic should be able to do this as well".

That's not what happens.  Miranda volunteers herself first in spite of the fact the best person for the job is already speaking and then follows it up with horrible advice. 

It's this completely unforced error to draw attention to herself that makes me question her leadership skills.  It's not an unreasonable position.

-Polaris

[MrnDvlDg161]

Hmmm... this XO thing is simply unsettling however... she's not an XO, just a good field advisor.



Its no longer a military ship. She's a good advisor.



When it comes down to it, from the team's point --- Shepard is Rex regardless of what anyone says and trumps everything --- if they did butt heads... well the airlock is a 2 way and might I add --- freely used open/close option for anyone as they all basically volunteered by their own means.

[Nightwriter]

IanPolaris wrote...

Kronner wrote...
Except for the fact that SOMEONE has to say that Samara is not the only one capable of doing that. Once again, you live on your island and interpret it for yourself and then present it as a fact. That is just BS at its best.

If that were her motivation, then I've have no issue at all with Miranda, but it clearly is not. If it were, she'd say, "Yes and in principle any biotic should be able to do this as well".

That's not what happens.  Miranda volunteers herself first in spite of the fact the best person for the job is already speaking and then follows it up with horrible advice. 

It's this completely unforced error to draw attention to herself that makes me question her leadership skills.  It's not an unreasonable position.

-Polaris

IanPolaris: I can fire a slingshot.
Nightwriter: I can too. Theoretically anyone could.

IanPolaris: I have a dog.
Nightwriter: I do too. A lot of people do.

It's just how people talk.

[IanPolaris]

Nightwriter wrote...

IanPolaris: I can fire a slingshot.
Nightwriter: I can too. Theoretically anyone could.

IanPolaris: I have a dog.
Nightwriter: I do too. A lot of people do.

It's just how people talk.

Not in a case like this:

In a field exercise, if you are faced with a somewhat difficult climbing challenge, and your best climber Roy says, "Hook that rope up there; I can rappel down the other side and avoid the booby traps, no sweat" and then another good (but not quite as good) athlete, Hank says, "I can do it too" That's clearly an attempt to volunteer for the job and by volunterring in this way is both getting the squad leader's attention and by implication saying that he can do it at least as well if not better.  Saying afterwords that theoretically any soldier in shape could do it does not negate this at all.

Replay it.  The context is very clear.  Miranda is taking the spotlight away from Samara.

-Polaris

[Ieldra]

EffectedByTheMasses wrote...
A good second in command in my eyes should ultimately be loyal, but be able to question his/her commanding officer and do things his/her own way. Also, Miranda's authoritarian and (usually) rational attitude is a good contrast to canon Shepard, who goes around recruiting unsavory types and blowing stuff up. That way, they can add an invaluable different perspective on problems... And in doing so sometimes make all the difference.
That's why I think Miranda is a good XO. Garrus would be too loyal and unquestioning towards Shepard.

Yeah. Shepard's attitude makes him very hard to like at times.

Miranda is very good as long as she doesn't have to deal with people on an emotional level. She's not afraid to voice her opinion even if it wins her no points. She can convince with arguments, but not with appeal to the emotions. How useful the former is, and how much of a liability the latter, that depends on the people on the team, but I prefer her that way. It's one reason I like her. It's also a good and much needed contrast to Shepard.
Miranda isn't an inspired leader like Shepard. But she is a very good second-in-command.

Edit:
I might add I find Shepard's ability to convince anyone of anything with emotional appeal rather creepy at times. Reminds me too much of Goebbels.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 août 2010 - 07:46 .

[hamtyl07]

if this was anoption i would still always go with garrus

[JockBuster]

Shotokanguy wrote...

Did the haters not play this game? She's completely loyal to Shepard at the end. She's level headed and smart, what's wrong with her being second in command?

Too many times to count! BS, she turns on TIM ("you're not loyal to anything are you!" Benezia). I solved that issue the easy way ... she (non-loyal) DIES at the reaper. And MOST of her advice is WRONG, never mind her abrasive know-it-all "I'm the perfect female dog" personality. Plus I kill ALL the Cerberus crew & Jacob, just like ME1.

Modifié par JockBuster, 19 août 2010 - 08:09 .

[Melra]

She is awesome, your mind was just not great enough to grasp her perfection and epicness. At least she doesn't whine like a little girl, but does something to solve the problems.

[Ieldra]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

BTW, you've kept this up for about 8 hours now. I wonder why. I just read your first post on page 2 and it was a lot more reasonable.

 

If I seem "unreasonable" it's because I am dealing with unreasonable people.  The FACT is (and it is a fact as anyone with an editor can confirm by looking at the conversation files), Miranda is flaged the way she is so she can always prompt Shepard to choose squaddies.  That's it.

Sorry, but that's not a fact. It's a fact that Miranda is flagged to survive until the final battle, and it's a fact she prompts you to select squadmates. That the two are connected is supposition.

BTW, your meta-reasoning doesn't convince me. I could counter it with: "The reason Miranda makes a mistake at the biotic bubble scene is that Bioware didn't want to make the solution obvious, for it's implausible to assume she doesn't know Samara is better for the task. We should all ignore that mistake, because it doesn't fit with what she clearly knows." But of course, you won't accept that, will you? Well, I accept that Miranda makes a mistake and don't try to reason it away by meta-logic.

I won't even start on your claim that she advances herself to snub Samara, another completely unsupported piece of propaganda. If you've talked with her enough, you'd know she's quite aware that she's not perfect: "I make mistakes like everyone else. And when I do, the consequences are severe." Someone who says this does make mistakes, but doesn't risk mission failure for personal vanity.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 août 2010 - 08:14 .

[Markinator_123]

JockBuster wrote...

Shotokanguy wrote...

Did the haters not play this game? She's completely loyal to Shepard at the end. She's level headed and smart, what's wrong with her being second in command?

Too many times to count! BS, she turns on TIM ("you're not loyal to anything are you!" Benezia). I solved that issue the easy way ... she (non-loyal) DIES at the reaper. And MOST of her advice is WRONG, never mind her abrasive know-it-all "I'm the perfect female dog" personality.

Know it all? Maybe if you actually talked to her she admits that she is still human and makes mistakes. Her advice by the way is actually right on the money most of the time. She recommends that you take your time to prepare the team before attempting the iff mission. For the suicide mission she recommends a tech expert which makes the choice even easier. For team leader she works but lets say that you're not sure she would work as team leader she recommends that the team leader should command leadership through experience. With that in mind, you're mind should say "Garrus!" As far as the biotic bubble is concerned, she is absolutely correct that any biotic could have handled the situation (I mean any of them would get you to the very end), but she could not have predicted that you would need an extra biotic push so once again she is not wrong.

[PsyrenY]

Nightwriter wrote...
IanPolaris: I can fire a slingshot.
Nightwriter: I can too. Theoretically anyone could.

Actually, it's more like:

"I can hit that bullseye at a hundred paces with my slingshot."
"I can too. Theoretically, anyone could."

It is not simply capability, but effectiveness, that defines the success of the task.

[Markinator_123]

Ieldra2 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

BTW, you've kept this up for about 8 hours now. I wonder why. I just read your first post on page 2 and it was a lot more reasonable.

 

If I seem "unreasonable" it's because I am dealing with unreasonable people.  The FACT is (and it is a fact as anyone with an editor can confirm by looking at the conversation files), Miranda is flaged the way she is so she can always prompt Shepard to choose squaddies.  That's it.

Sorry, but that's not a fact. It's a fact that Miranda is flagged to survive until the final battle, and it's a fact she prompts you to select squadmates. That the two are connected is supposition.

BTW, your meta-reasoning doesn't convince me. I could counter it with: "The reason Miranda makes a mistake at the biotic bubble scene is that Bioware didn't want to make the solution obvious, for it's implausible to assume she doesn't know Samara is better for the task. We should all ignore that mistake, because it doesn't fit with what she clearly knows." But of course, you won't accept that, will you? Well, I accept that Miranda makes a mistake and don't try to reason it away by meta-logic.

I won't even start on your claim that she advances herself to snub Samara, another completely unsupported piece of propaganda. If you've talked with her enough, you'd know she's quite aware that she's not perfect: "I make mistakes like everyone else. And when I do, the consequences are severe." Someone who says this does make mistakes, but doesn't risk mission failure for personal vanity.

Interestingly, I always pick Jack for the part.

[Fanbus]

Ok some of you folks mention stuff that I may have missed.
-What gift does she give you if you romance her? On my first run through I did and I got no gift. Unless you consider calling her up to the captain's quarter's a gift. Which I thought was rather lame and awkward.
-She would risk her life to save Shepard? How do we know that? Nothing in the game alludes to that. Shoot Samara seems more likely to take a bullet for Shepard (she even sort of mentions that) than Miranda would.
-Miranda to me felt superficial, their relationship forced.

I've met girls in real life similar to Miranda, and no I don't mean space faring, mega-corporation, biotic mastering stooges... I mean very attractive women in a position of power. They never acted the way Miranda acts. If anything they were pretty forward and I'd almost say sexually aggresive when it came to that department. They had no problem speaking their mind and making sure you knew what they wanted.

Once again we have the same issue I have against almost every RPG; the character doesn't match the personality.

Miranda seemed like she was made of cardboard. She wants power? I doubt it. Someone like her the first thing she'd be doing is trying to bed the Captain. By bedding the captain it gives her a leg up, particularly someone like Shepard who's known throughout the galaxy. I'm not saying she needs to be a cougar, but her interactions with Shepard leading up to romantic choices felt bland and forced to me (by forced I mean the player forces themself on her instead of the other way around).

If anything, Tali should have been the least forward, same with Samara. If anything, Miranda should have been the most forward towards Shepard for a variety of reasons;
-It may lasso Shepard into a commitment with Cerberus. She could be used as a tool by TIM
-It would increase control TIM has over Shepard. It would be so much easier for her to manipulate Shep instead of the way its currently set up.
-If she is vying for more power and control, particularly over those members of the crew she dislikes, bedding Shepard would give her even more influence. We already see some of that in game. But honestly I never really felt Miranda was in control of anything other than her desk and that stupid transparent UI computer thingy.

Now this is when it would have gotten really good. As a player you would have had to make a decision whether to keep her in that role or remove her from authority. Both choices would have consequences. Leaving her in the position of executive officer would create tensions between the crew, removing her would create tensions between you and her and possibly Cerberus leadership.

To me at least such content would have made the game epic.

Modifié par Fanbus, 19 août 2010 - 08:40 .

[Ieldra]

@Markinator:
I pick Samara exactly because Miranda has no reason to snub her. If she doesn't trust Jack for the task, which I understand, there's still no need to suggest herself instead of someone more capable. I take this scene as a mistake on the communication level: she doesn't actually want to advance herself, but to present Shepard with all the options. That what she says about herself comes across as advancing herself is something she doesn't understand on an emotional level.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 août 2010 - 08:39 .