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Miranda as XO? GOOD or Bad ?


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#376
IanPolaris

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Ieldra2 wrote...

This is getting ridiculous.

(1) Miranda actually gives good advice most of the time. Except once. If you'd follow Jacob's advice, Thane would be sent out the airlock, if you followed Tali's advice, the quarians would go to war against the geth and Legion would be destroyed. People make mistakes. And in her case, it's your understanding that contributes to that mistake as much as the way she says it. See my reply to Markinator for details.


Actually she doesn't most of the time and she is way too overconfident when she does.  Another example (and there are many) of Miranda's bad advice is to delay with the Suicide Mission if even one major mission remains undone.  In fact, you can do the suicide mission with as few as two loyal squaddies with difficulty and four without too much trouble.  Miranda's advice costs you your crew.

As for her 'suggestion' on Mordin, it wasn't a suggestion, it was a directive.  A renegade Shep has the option (which I always take if going Renegade) of slapping her down hard.  (Besides, TIM already made that suggestion)  Also one of the first things she tells you is that she wants a control chip planted in your brain.  I don't know about you, but that doesn't qualify as being very polite to me.  You can (and should!) call Miranda on her female-dog attitude early.

(2) She's reasonably polite to everyone, except to Jack, which may be not as professional as you might wish, but I find it perfectly understandable. And don't mention the prologue scene, I do not find her b*tchy, but perfectly reasonable in her rebuff of Shepard's intrusion into her personal space. I'd have done exactly the same in her place.


Read Redcoat's post.  He explains it better than I have.  People Skills =/= Polite.  In fact having "people skills" does not mean you have to be either soft spoken or even all that nice.  It does mean you know how to handle and read people emotionally which Miranda clearly doesn't do very well.

(3) The game shows us, while she's certainly not on Shepard's level, she's a enough good leader to lead both fire teams. And don't pull out your meta-reasoning - I already pointed out why that doesn't work. Which means, while she does have her self-esteem problems, it doesn't affect her efficiency enough to fail at her tasks.

So, IanPolaris, could you stop your ridiculous crusade and accept that other people experience the game differently than you do?


Redcoat had nothing to do with me and his post was even harsher than mine was.  Point in fact I like Miranda and I don't have a "personal crusade against her".  However, she is NOT a good leader.  I know because I have experienced (both ways) leadership training and have seen both good and bad leaders, and Miranda is not a good leader.

The ONLY reason she survives that second fireteam leader slot is because she has plot-armor until the very final part of the suicide mission because Bioware was too cheap to have other voice actors give lines that prompt you to chose key suicide mission personelle.  This can be firmed by hacking the conversation files.

-Polaris

#377
Ieldra

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Nightwriter wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
If I had my way, Jack would never have been recruited.

You don't mean that. :crying:

Yes, I do. I don't hate her, but I find her completely unsuitable for the mission, personality-wise, and I resent that she's forced on me. I wish I could avoid recruiting her. I wouldn't avoid it in all playthroughs, but in most.
 

#378
IanPolaris

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Melrache wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

If I had may way, Jack would never have been recruited.


You don't mean that. :crying:


I would never recruit Jack either. She might be powerful biotic, but I find her personality unlikable. The punk ass kiddo attitude is making me turn red. :innocent:


I agree as well.  If it were my choice I would not recuit Jack either.  She isn't necessary and she doesn't play well with others.

-Polaris

#379
Kaiser Shepard

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IanPolaris wrote...

Melrache wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

If I had may way, Jack would never have been recruited.


You don't mean that. :crying:


I would never recruit Jack either. She might be powerful biotic, but I find her personality unlikable. The punk ass kiddo attitude is making me turn red. :innocent:


I agree as well.  If it were my choice I would not recuit Jack either.  She isn't necessary and she doesn't play well with others.

-Polaris

But... THOSE EYES!

#380
Spartas Husky

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yep, this turned into, I am right coz your wrong, and your wrong coz I am right lol.



get pop corn, this is going to take a while :P

#381
IanPolaris

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

But... THOSE EYES!


Don't care.  Jack is a danger to herself and others and shows no desire to work as a part of a team.  If I were a combat commander, I'd tell her to pack her bags.  The same goes for Zaeed during his loyalty mission.  I wish I had the option (pre-suicide mission) to leave him to burn for what he did.

I would.

-Polaris

#382
IanPolaris

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Spartas Husky wrote...

yep, this turned into, I am right coz your wrong, and your wrong coz I am right lol.

get pop corn, this is going to take a while :P


What part of Internet Forum did you miss?

-Polaris

#383
Nightwriter

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IanPolaris wrote...

Melrache wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

If I had may way, Jack would never have been recruited.


You don't mean that. :crying:


I would never recruit Jack either. She might be powerful biotic, but I find her personality unlikable. The punk ass kiddo attitude is making me turn red. :innocent:


I agree as well.  If it were my choice I would not recuit Jack either.  She isn't necessary and she doesn't play well with others.

-Polaris


First Miranda, now Jack! When will it end?! They take everyone I love! My mother will be next, you watch!

Then my teddy bear Barston! They'll come for Barston Bear!

#384
Kaiser Shepard

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IanPolaris wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

But... THOSE EYES!


Don't care.  Jack is a danger to herself and others and shows no desire to work as a part of a team.  If I were a combat commander, I'd tell her to pack her bags.  The same goes for Zaeed during his loyalty mission.  I wish I had the option (pre-suicide mission) to leave him to burn for what he did.

I would.

-Polaris

I know, but that one usually shows up at one point or another so I figured I might as well do it this time.

I disagree with you on Zaeed, though.

Edit: And Miranda, of course.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 20 août 2010 - 09:09 .


#385
Melra

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IanPolaris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

This is getting ridiculous.

(1) Miranda actually gives good advice most of the time. Except once. If you'd follow Jacob's advice, Thane would be sent out the airlock, if you followed Tali's advice, the quarians would go to war against the geth and Legion would be destroyed. People make mistakes. And in her case, it's your understanding that contributes to that mistake as much as the way she says it. See my reply to Markinator for details.


Actually she doesn't most of the time and she is way too overconfident when she does.  Another example (and there are many) of Miranda's bad advice is to delay with the Suicide Mission if even one major mission remains undone.  In fact, you can do the suicide mission with as few as two loyal squaddies with difficulty and four without too much trouble.  Miranda's advice costs you your crew.

As for her 'suggestion' on Mordin, it wasn't a suggestion, it was a directive.  A renegade Shep has the option (which I always take if going Renegade) of slapping her down hard.  (Besides, TIM already made that suggestion)  Also one of the first things she tells you is that she wants a control chip planted in your brain.  I don't know about you, but that doesn't qualify as being very polite to me.  You can (and should!) call Miranda on her female-dog attitude early.


-Polaris


I think her advice and actions are understandable and good, if you take into account the situation and the amount of info provided for her.

There wasn't much info about the Collector base, so bringing in all the specialists you can get should increase the odds of survival and succeeding. The crew can be replaced easily with any other spacecraft crew and they could be dead by that point anyway.

Control chip, understandable as well. It would be foolish to put huge amount of resources into something, that you only can hope to work for you, if it backfires ( which was most likely in this scenario ) it could destroy the whole organization. With Shepard work background she was right to be cautious.

It's easier to be unfriendly to person, who is already in position to hurt you or things that you care for, than to be friendly. If the guy that was talking to Miranda for the first time was non Alliance person, inside Cerberus base, the reaction might have been different. :?

#386
Ieldra

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Yeah yeah, repeating yourself ad infinitum doesn't make your claims true. IanPolaris.



As for Miranda's advice about delaying the suicide mission: your primary objective is to take out the Collectors. At that point, you can't know that you can get away with less than optimal strengh without metagaming. You also don't know that you'll lose the crew if you delay. So her advice is good strategic reasoning.



For everything else, I do not accept metagaming reasons as character analysis.



I accept that Shepard's a whole class better as a leader than Miranda is. But then, he's a whole class better than anyone else as well. I also accept that Miranda's people skills need some work, but that doesn't affect her efficiency much. OK, except with Jack. As the game shows us, I might add.



And that's that for this thread. I have better things to do than rebuffing the same claims again and again. You have another experience of Miranda than I do, there's nothing I can do about it. But don't try and enshrine your experience as The Truth.

#387
IanPolaris

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Ieldra,



You seem to want to turn this into some sort of crusade where you are defending the great and holy Miranda against the 'evil Ianpolaris' that wants to unfairly trash her reputation.



That may be what you see, but it isn't even close to what's going on. The only thing I've pointed out over and over again is how by objective criterian used in real life to judge leadership potential, that Miranda fails badly at it and as such is probably not the best choice for an XO.



Futhermore I have been far from alone. Again read Redcoat's post. His analysis had nothing to do with my own, but in two paragraphs, he damns her leadership abilities for almost *precisely* the same reasons that I did and does so in an easy to understand and concise manner.



You simply don't want to accept the evidence. That's all.



-Polaris

#388
Nightwriter

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I think it's just an unfortunate forum perception, really. That anyone who rails against a certain character for more than 10 pages is a hater/flamer (does saying flamer sound weird?).  

#389
IanPolaris

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Kronner wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Red Army performance (especially from 1941-43) was a classic reading of BAD leadership and the human price of it for the most part.

-Polaris


It had to be done, no other way. You seem to think good leaders do not lose people, well that is wrong. On some missions casualties are inevitable. You base your whole argument about the biotic bubble on this - everyone needs to survive. That is not true.


You're wrong.  I don't base leadership based on this.  In fact I don't fault Miranda's leadership at all because she fails at the biotic bubble.  I fault her for piping up and volunteering for a difficult job when the more qualified person has already volunteered and she knows it.

As for the Soviets, it was completely preventable.  All Stalin had to do was NOT kill off his officer corps.

I never have claimed and emphatically deny that leaders never lose people.  However, a good leader gets the most from his people and the way that is done is to keep as many alive/functioning at their best as much as possible, when it is not possible he gets makes sure to get the maximum result for those lives and never spends his followers lives casually.  Brave soldiers can do incredible things and feats of personal bravery (see Normandy or even Dieppe) if they know and trust their leaders and believe that if they have to die, it will be worth it.

If a soldier does not believe that, bad things happen which is WHY Stalin had to waste his secret police units and vital Machine guns just to hold his own infantry in place.

-Polaris

#390
TheBoss1138

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In my own opinion Miranda would make a perfect XO on my ship...Mainly cause we hooked up on my male shep and her loyalty to me at the end :)...thats if anyone took her to the final battle, you know what I be talking about

#391
IanPolaris

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Nightwriter wrote...

I think it's just an unfortunate forum perception, really. That anyone who rails against a certain character for more than 10 pages is a hater/flamer (does saying flamer sound weird?).  


I have not posted anything that comes remotely close to being a h8r, against MIranda or any other character.  She just isn't leadership material....or should I call other people I disagree with fanbois.  Frankly I think I'd be more justified in doing that (which I am not) than the other way around.  I also note that I am far from alone in my analysis of Miranda and compared to some others, I am in fact kind.

-Polaris

#392
Melra

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TheBoss1138 wrote...

In my own opinion Miranda would make a perfect XO on my ship...Mainly cause we hooked up on my male shep and her loyalty to me at the end :)...thats if anyone took her to the final battle, you know what I be talking about


Well that's not really same. You can be loyal to your leader, but still be horrible XO. You can be world's best frontline soldier and still lack the ability to lead. ^_^

I romanced her on my all 11 runs, but my desire to have her XO isn't because of that alone. I even have another candidate for that role. Kaidan would be great, imo. Miranda isn't just a tactician, she's also a great squadmate with great ways to help the group reach their goal.

#393
Lord Coake

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Miranda as XO? Not a chance in hell.



If My Shep buys it, command goes to the Tactical officer, Garrus. If Garrus and Shep are out, then it goes to the Cheif Engineer, Tali. If Tali is unable to command, it goes to the Armory officer, Jacob.



If all of the above are unable to take command, then Miranda is up. She's a goddamed personnel manager and political officer (read: Commissar) . The Timmy plant is lucky she hasn't been blasted out an airlock or left behind on some desolate hell world by now.

#394
IanPolaris

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Lord Coake,



Now that you mention it, on the SR2, that is exactly what Miranda's position is. Political officer.



-Polaris

#395
Ieldra

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IanPolaris wrote...
Ieldra,

You seem to want to turn this into some sort of crusade where you are defending the great and holy Miranda against the 'evil Ianpolaris' that wants to unfairly trash her reputation.

That may be what you see, but it isn't even close to what's going on. The only thing I've pointed out over and over again is how by objective criterian used in real life to judge leadership potential, that Miranda fails badly at it and as such is probably not the best choice for an XO.

Perhaps then you shouldn't have said that when giving advice at the Collector base, she advances herself over the others because of her insecurity, because that is purely your interpretation and honestly not what I see. Perhaps you shouldn't have said she needed to shut her trap. 

Actually, we are agreed that Miranda's people skills need a lot of work. We don't agree about how much that affects her efficiency, because you use real-world standards and I use what the game shows us. You essentially say that because of real-world standards, the leadership abilities Miranda shows in the game (i.e. the Fire Team, giving good advice most of the time) are artificial and shouldn't count, I say we should take what the game shows us at face value and accept that while she's not perfect as a leader (I never claimed that, and she does make mistakes - see the confrontation with Jack), shes as good as the other alternative often promoted, Garrus - who has problems of his own. Among others, as you said yourself in your post on page 2, who of the crew would trust a Turian?    

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 août 2010 - 09:52 .


#396
Melra

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Lord Coake wrote...

Miranda as XO? Not a chance in hell.

If My Shep buys it, command goes to the Tactical officer, Garrus. If Garrus and Shep are out, then it goes to the Cheif Engineer, Tali. If Tali is unable to command, it goes to the Armory officer, Jacob.

If all of the above are unable to take command, then Miranda is up. She's a goddamed personnel manager and political officer (read: Commissar) . The Timmy plant is lucky she hasn't been blasted out an airlock or left behind on some desolate hell world by now.


I think I'd rather have Miranda than Garrus, while he is my favorite character, I don't think he would be that great.

#397
Lord Coake

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Melrache wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

Miranda as XO? Not a chance in hell.

If My Shep buys it, command goes to the Tactical officer, Garrus. If Garrus and Shep are out, then it goes to the Cheif Engineer, Tali. If Tali is unable to command, it goes to the Armory officer, Jacob.

If all of the above are unable to take command, then Miranda is up. She's a goddamed personnel manager and political officer (read: Commissar) . The Timmy plant is lucky she hasn't been blasted out an airlock or left behind on some desolate hell world by now.


I think I'd rather have Miranda than Garrus, while he is my favorite character, I don't think he would be that great.


Partially agree.  Garrus may not be the best Ship Captain around, but he's a dammed fine choice for getting as many people out alive as possible, getting the Normandy to safety, and getting help from the right quarter afterwards.  "Joker, get us to the nearest Citadel fleet base* as fast as you safely can...except the Alliance."*


****No way of knowing how infected by Cerberus the Alliance is.  If Shep is dead, than the Normandy is probably in nasty shape and/or the mission just went completely to hell.  Better to get her to the Asari, Salarians or, better yet, the Turians.

Modifié par Lord Coake, 20 août 2010 - 09:47 .


#398
IanPolaris

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Perhaps then you shouldn't have said that when giving advice at the Collector base, she advances herself over the others because of her insecurity, because that is purely your interpretation and honestly not what I see. Perhaps you shouldn't have said she needed to shut her trap. 


The problem is, that's exactly what she does.  This is consistant with her conversations and demenor the whole rest of the game.  If it was NOT her intention to promote herself (and take the spot-light) but rather discuss alternatives, she could and would have done it a completely different way, such as (and this is just one example), "I believe that any biotic should be able to maintain a bubble at least for a while, but I recommend the strongest and most controlled biotic available.  Who do you want to choose."

She didn't do it, however.

I also note that Miranda at NO point suggests that anyone other than herself is the ideal fire-team leader.  It takes Jack (or Garrus) speaking out for her to say, "You need someone that can lead through experience" and still doesn't indicate that it should be anybody but her (and her body languages shows that too especially if you pick someone else.)

Actually, we are agreed that Miranda's people skills need a lot of work. We don't agree about how much that affects her efficiency, because you use real-world standards and I use what the game shows us. You essentially say that because of real-world standards, the leadership abilities Miranda shows in the game (i.e. the Fire Team, giving good advice most of the time) are artificial and shouldn't count, I say we should take what the game shows us at face value - which doesn't make her perfect (I never claimed that) but as good as the other alternative often promoted, Garrus - who has problems of his own. Among others, as you said yourself in your post on page 2, who of the crew would trust a Turian?    


Read Redcoat's post again.  He explains exactly what is wrong with Miranda's leadership skills and why personal skills matter in this regard.  He explains it a lot better than I've been able to apparently.

-Polaris

#399
ADLegend21

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Redcoat wrote...

Miranda is a bloody terrible XO. She is a walking, breathing example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect (basically, when people are incompetent, but lack the ability to realise it) and if someone under my command started making statements such as "I'm never wrong," and "I'm very good at anything I choose to do" then that would send up all manner of warning flags that this person isn't any near as competent as she thinks she is.

Um....I think hse successfully led a project to bring a person back from the dead, and helped save the council from an assasination attempt. I have extreme doubts someone who was incompitent could do that.

#400
IanPolaris

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ADLegend21 wrote...

Redcoat wrote...

Miranda is a bloody terrible XO. She is a walking, breathing example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect (basically, when people are incompetent, but lack the ability to realise it) and if someone under my command started making statements such as "I'm never wrong," and "I'm very good at anything I choose to do" then that would send up all manner of warning flags that this person isn't any near as competent as she thinks she is.

Um....I think hse successfully led a project to bring a person back from the dead, and helped save the council from an assasination attempt. I have extreme doubts someone who was incompitent could do that.


Miranda is a competant manager.  However, as for saving the council from an assassination attempt, he have only Jacob's story and that's extremely sketchy on details (and we don't even know Miranda was in charge of that or what the size of that team was....being part of a team of two does not require much if anything in the way of leadership skills especially if the two are personally close...which we know at the time Miranda and Jacob were).

However, she does show signs of situtional incompetance all throughout the mission. 

-Polaris