479 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

Just depends on how you see the ship.

To me the Normandy SR2 is a great big RV crammed with all my friends and we're going on a road trip around the galaxy to sort out my friend's stuff and do cool things. And my job is just to make sure everyone's cool while we do it.

Other people see the ship much more militarily, and I respect that.

I personally don't see my friends with the unforgiving professionalism that gives birth to such comments as "Jack is an unacceptable operative to have on the team" or "Miranda is an unfit XO." They're just... my friends.

[ADLegend21]

Also , people skills don't matter when it comes to leading, I seem to remember renegade shepard's pissing off squadmates but they stil follow them. I also see alot of hate because Miranda can talk the talk and walk the walk. I'd loe to have someone liek her on my squad "Cerberus just hands me my resoruces and say do it" now if she talked a big game then faile dmiserably we'd have a problem, but since she doesn't I don't see why people ahte her for saying that she's had a pretty successful career.

[IanPolaris]

Nightwriter wrote...

Just depends on how you see the ship.

To me the Normandy SR2 is a great big RV crammed with all my friends and we're going on a road trip around the galaxy to sort out my friend's stuff and do cool things. And my job is just to make sure everyone's cool while we do it.

Other people see the ship much more militarily, and I respect that.

I personally don't see my friends with the unforgiving professionalism that gives birth to such comments as "Jack is an unacceptable operative to have on the team" or "Miranda is an unfit XO." They're just... my friends.

I fail to see how anyone sees the SR2 as anything other than military.  The crew salutes, uses military courtesy, has military style uniforms (exactly the same as the alliance navy except the color scheme is different), etc.  At the very least, SR-2 is run on paramilitary lines which means military standards.

-Polaris

[Melra]

In long term, if you intend to lead people, they need to like you somewhat. I don't really care about most of the crew, they could be anyone as long as they don't flatten the mood and do their part. Legion is ''cool and funny'', but still it's only that. Mordin, Miranda and Garrus and the Doctor are the ones that matter to me on SR-2. Rest, I wouldn't sacrifice foolishly nor let them die, if I could help it, but if they wouldn't pop up in the next game, I wouldn't be upset.



Back to topic, I don't really know about Miranda's people skills, but I believe she would make fine leader, depending on what she is given. Band of mercs and specialists, who don't really follow normal ways can be hard bunch to get connected with and lead them.

[ADLegend21]

IanPolaris wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Redcoat wrote...

Miranda is a bloody terrible XO. She is a walking, breathing example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect (basically, when people are incompetent, but lack the ability to realise it) and if someone under my command started making statements such as "I'm never wrong," and "I'm very good at anything I choose to do" then that would send up all manner of warning flags that this person isn't any near as competent as she thinks she is.

Um....I think hse successfully led a project to bring a person back from the dead, and helped save the council from an assasination attempt. I have extreme doubts someone who was incompitent could do that.

Miranda is a competant manager.  However, as for saving the council from an assassination attempt, *we have only Jacob's story and that's extremely sketchy on details (and we don't even know Miranda was in charge of that or what the size of that team was....being part of a team of two does not require much if anything in the way of leadership skills especially if the two are personally close...which we know at the time Miranda and Jacob were).

However, she does show signs of situtional incompetance all throughout the mission. 

-Polaris

ME Galaxy was Jacob's story and plus siding that along side bringing someone back to life that's a small blip on the radar from giving death a big EFF U. She's a great multi-takser, has one of the best skill sets of all ME2 squadmates (especially on the insanity diffuculties when everything, including the trash cans, has armor and shields).  Where are these "situational incompitent" signs that she shows? I'd love to hear abotu them.

[IanPolaris]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Also , people skills don't matter when it comes to leading, I seem to remember renegade shepard's pissing off squadmates but they stil follow them. I also see alot of hate because Miranda can talk the talk and walk the walk. I'd loe to have someone liek her on my squad "Cerberus just hands me my resoruces and say do it" now if she talked a big game then faile dmiserably we'd have a problem, but since she doesn't I don't see why people ahte her for saying that she's had a pretty successful career.

The problem is that Miranda (except for the scripted suicide mission which I regard as Plot Armor for very solid reasons), doesn't walk the walk.  As for people skills, they are absolutely essential when it comes to leadership.  "People skills" doesn't mean being touchie-feely either.  It simply means being able to understand, adjust, and take advantage of how people respond and react to you.   Just because you have people skills doesn't mean you can't be a hardass and it doesn't mean you have to be nice or even liked in the slightest.  It DOES mean you need to be trusted and respected (feared is fine within limits).

Renegade Shep is trusted, respected, and feared.  Paragon Shep is trusted, respected, and loved (and feared by some).  Miranda is simply disliked and untrusted.

See the difference?

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

ADLegend21 wrote...
ME Galaxy was Jacob's story and plus siding that along side bringing someone back to life that's a small blip on the radar from giving death a big EFF U. She's a great multi-takser, has one of the best skill sets of all ME2 squadmates (especially on the insanity diffuculties when everything, including the trash cans, has armor and shields).  Where are these "situational incompitent" signs that she shows? I'd love to hear abotu them.

I and others have shown signs of situational incompetance from Miranda for pages and pages now. It's not hard to find.  As for the above, none of that shows Miranda's leadership skill in the slightest.  It shows she had stellar technitions working for her with cutting edge tech and she could manage them effectively.

That makes her a manager and administrator, not a leader.

-Polaris

[Melra]

The thread is about being XO and leadership, not about her other abilities, I believe. So, while I understand that Polaris' views might anger or upset some people, then throwing in arguments, that have nothing to do with main subject, won't do you any good.



She does rule in somewhat cold manner, but I'd rather see her lead Cerberus/Military group, rather than collective bunch of mercs and specialists, before I say anything else. I still think she did great job with what she was given, but if she'd act same way with Cerberus/Military group, I might feel differently.

[Ieldra]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Perhaps then you shouldn't have said that when giving advice at the Collector base, she advances herself over the others because of her insecurity, because that is purely your interpretation and honestly not what I see. Perhaps you shouldn't have said she needed to shut her trap. 

The problem is, that's exactly what she does.  This is consistant with her conversations and demenor the whole rest of the game.  If it was NOT her intention to promote herself (and take the spot-light) but rather discuss alternatives, she could and would have done it a completely different way, such as (and this is just one example), "I believe that any biotic should be able to maintain a bubble at least for a while, but I recommend the strongest and most controlled biotic available.  Who do you want to choose."

If I recall the scene correctly, she says "Even I could do it." This implies she knows and accepts she's not the strongest biotic. She also shows no animosity towards Samara. In fact, she judges her overly competent, as you can see if you choose Samara as (first) Fire Team leader. Also a mistake, yes, but not the action of one who wants to stand in the limelight.

I also note that Miranda at NO point suggests that anyone other than herself is the ideal fire-team leader.  It takes Jack (or Garrus) speaking out for her to say, "You need someone that can lead through experience" and still doesn't indicate that it should be anybody but her (and her body languages shows that too especially if you pick someone else.)

And isn't she right in that by what the game shows us? Whatever her shortcomings in personality, she *does* lead both Fire Teams successfully, and she leads the second one even if she's not loyal. You might choose to discount that by saying it's an artifact of her role in the plot, but my interpretation that her personal flaws don't affect her leadership in this situation is at least equally valid, and has the advantage I don't need meta-reasoning to explain it. 

Read Redcoat's post again.  He explains exactly what is wrong with Miranda's leadership skills and why personal skills matter in this regard.  He explains it a lot better than I've been able to apparently.

He's wrong. He says she's not aware of her shortcomings. That's not true "I make mistakes like everyone else, and when I do, the consequences are severe." And of course it's in the nature of mistakes that you can't know which ones you're going to make in advance. He also gives that execrable interpretation of the engine room scene. I'm tempted to invoke meta-reasoning here (Bioware thought it was cool, they didn't think of the transparent walls when they designed that scene - I'm pretty much convinced they didn't), but it's not necessary. OK, maybe she's drawn to the added thrill of the danger of someone coming in, that's nothing unusual as I understand and certainly no deep-seated personality defect, but there is no indication she *wants* to be seen (as I said, the place where they meet - as opposed to other parts of the engine room - can't be seen from anywhere)   Maybe she didn't want to commit herself too deeply by claiming Shepard's personal space or vice versa. I can think of more interpretations. Of course, if you resent her right from the start like Redcoat admitted, you're likely to choose the worst possible interpretation.

Edit:
Just to add to this: Garrus also has this emotional insecurity, as you can see if you romance him. One of the results is his going on a spree of revenge. It doesn't affect his leadership much... And as for trust - who'd trust a Turian, except Shepard. That he might deserve that trust is beside the point.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 août 2010 - 10:49 .

[Nightwriter]

IanPolaris wrote...

I fail to see how anyone sees the SR2 as anything other than military.  The crew salutes, uses military courtesy, has military style uniforms (exactly the same as the alliance navy except the color scheme is different), etc.  At the very least, SR-2 is run on paramilitary lines which means military standards.

-Polaris

You fail to see how someone could have a different outlook than yours? LOL.

The SR2 is a civilian ship. There's some scattered saluting, but it's not rigidly observed. It's certainly an informal ship. You got card games, fights, luxurious crew quarters, people chatting at tables, and possibly Shepard walking around in orange-vested ruffian garb. Why? Because it's not a military ship anymore.

[ADLegend21]

IanPolaris wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
ME Galaxy was Jacob's story and plus siding that along side bringing someone back to life that's a small blip on the radar from giving death a big EFF U. She's a great multi-takser, has one of the best skill sets of all ME2 squadmates (especially on the insanity diffuculties when everything, including the trash cans, has armor and shields).  Where are these "situational incompitent" signs that she shows? I'd love to hear abotu them.

I and others have shown signs of situational incompetance from Miranda for pages and pages now. It's not hard to find.  As for the above, none of that shows Miranda's leadership skill in the slightest.  It shows she had stellar technitions working for her with cutting edge tech and she could manage them effectively.

That makes her a manager and administrator, not a leader.

-Polaris

If you're talking about her Suggestions during the suicide mission, they're very knowledgable suggestions, the only problems with the biotic specialist is that besides Jack and Samara, no one else can do the pulse, but there's no way Mirada would know that you have to be able to hold the shield and then use it to push seeker swarms and collectors back before the doors close, all the choices are able to produce the bubble so Miranda was right (point Miranda) she was also one of the correct leaders for thee fire teams, mentioned that they'd need two teams (biotic escort, and distraction team) and suggest that Shepard take a team through while the rest "hold the line". Sounds pretty smart to me.

[ADLegend21]

Nightwriter wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I fail to see how anyone sees the SR2 as anything other than military.  The crew salutes, uses military courtesy, has military style uniforms (exactly the same as the alliance navy except the color scheme is different), etc.  At the very least, SR-2 is run on paramilitary lines which means military standards.

-Polaris

You fail to see how someone could have a different outlook than yours? LOL.

The SR2 is a civilian ship. There's some scattered saluting, but it's not rigidly observed. It's certainly an informal ship. You got card games, fights, luxurious crew quarters, people chatting at tables, and possibly Shepard walking around in orange-vested ruffian garb. Why? Because it's not a military ship anymore.

first talk you have with Joker Shepard says "this is a civilian ship, I should be lucky you're still wearing pants"

[Ieldra]

Nightwriter wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I fail to see how anyone sees the SR2 as anything other than military.  The crew salutes, uses military courtesy, has military style uniforms (exactly the same as the alliance navy except the color scheme is different), etc.  At the very least, SR-2 is run on paramilitary lines which means military standards.

-Polaris

You fail to see how someone could have a different outlook than yours? LOL.

Pretty much this. Not only in this matter.

[Barquiel]

Nightwriter wrote...

The SR2 is a civilian ship. There's some scattered saluting, but it's not rigidly observed. It's certainly an informal ship. You got card games, fights, luxurious crew quarters, people chatting at tables, and possibly Shepard walking around in orange-vested ruffian garb. Why? Because it's not a military ship anymore.

The cerberus (=military) crew has no problems with her. Remember the two crewmembers who talk about the missing colonies...
"Shepard and Lawson are on it. We'll get you brother back..."
It seems to me that they respect her.

Jack hates her (obviously)
Tali and Garrus don't trust her because she is a Cerberus agent.
I think the other squadmates don't care.

[IanPolaris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

If I recall the scene correctly, she says "Even I could do it." This implies she knows and accepts she's not the strongest biotic. She also shows no animosity towards Samara. In fact, she judges her overly competent, as you can see if you choose Samara as (first) Fire Team leader. Also a mistake, yes, but not the action of one who wants to stand in the limelight.

That is NOT what she says. When Samara explains (or confirms) the Biotic Bubble, Miranda without prompting says, "I can do it too".  She is both volunteering for the mission and (implicitly) stating that she's just as good (if not better) than Miranda.

I also note that Miranda at NO point suggests that anyone other than herself is the ideal fire-team leader.  It takes Jack (or Garrus) speaking out for her to say, "You need someone that can lead through experience" and still doesn't indicate that it should be anybody but her (and her body languages shows that too especially if you pick someone else.)

And isn't she right in that by what the game shows us? Whatever her shortcomings in personality, she *does* lead both Fire Teams successfully, and she leads the second one even if she's not loyal. You might choose to discount that by saying it's an artifact of her role in the plot, but my interpretation that her personal flaws don't affect her leadership in this situation is at least equally valid, and has the advantage I don't need meta-reasoning to explain it.

Yes, Bioware "flags" her as a good leader, but by modern professional standards of leadership, Bioware is simply wrong.  It's not the first time they are wrong about professional standards when it comes to various character traits.

 

Read Redcoat's post again.  He explains exactly what is wrong with Miranda's leadership skills and why personal skills matter in this regard.  He explains it a lot better than I've been able to apparently.

He's wrong. He says she's not aware of her shortcomings. That's not true "I make mistakes like everyone else, and when I do, the consequences are severe." And of course it's in the nature of mistakes that you can't know which ones you're going to make in advance.

He is not wrong.  I've seen bad leaders with exactly the sort of insecurity and incompetance issues that he mentioned. It's actually fairly common in OCS in officer candidates.  It's the inability when it matters to admit that you might be mistaken.  Sure Miranda 'admits' she makes mitakes in private when no one else can see it, but not once in the game itself with game decisions does Miranda admit that she's wrong (either about Jack, about the Biotic Bubble, or about anything really).

Oh...wait....if you don't romance anyone, then she does admit that she was mistaken about Shep.  Gee, how gracious Captain Obvious. 

He also gives that execrable interpretation of the engine room scene. I'm tempted to invoke meta-reasoning here (Bioware thought it was cool, they didn't think of the transparent walls when they designed that scene - I'm pretty much convinced they didn't), but it's not necessary. OK, maybe she's drawn to the added thrill of the danger of someone coming in, that's nothing unusual as I understand and certainly no deep-seated personality defect, but there is no indication she *wants* to be seen (as I said, the place where they meet - as opposed to other parts of the engine room - can't be seen from anywhere)   Maybe she didn't want to commit herself too deeply by claiming Shepard's personal space or vice versa. I can think of more interpretations. Of course, if you resent her right from the start like Redcoat admitted, you're likely to choose the worst possible interpretation.

Wanting to have sex in a public place is not in of itself a sign of a bad leader but as Redcoat concluded, it is a giant red flag when combined with Miranda's other flaws and personal issues.  She simply is not professional leadership material.

Edit:
Just to add to this: Garrus also has this emotional insecurity, as you can see if you romance him. One of the results is his going on a spree of revenge. It doesn't affect his leadership much... And as for trust - who'd trust a Turian, except Shepard. That he might deserve that trust is beside the point.

Garrus, however, deals with his emotional baggage, and he can admit that he is wrong about things....including (if you go paragon) his need for revenge.  Garrus has the makings of a first rate leader especially combat leader.  He does have issues, but proves both on and off screen he can deal with them without getting people unnecessily killed.  MIranda by contrast does not deal with her emotional baggage well and it does (if you let it) get people killed unnecessarily.

-Polaris

[Nightwriter]

Barquiel wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The SR2 is a civilian ship. There's some scattered saluting, but it's not rigidly observed. It's certainly an informal ship. You got card games, fights, luxurious crew quarters, people chatting at tables, and possibly Shepard walking around in orange-vested ruffian garb. Why? Because it's not a military ship anymore.

The cerberus (=military) crew has no problems with her. Remember the two crewmembers who talk about the missing colonies...
"Shepard and Lawson are on it. We'll get you brother back..."
It seems to me that they respect her.

Jack hates her (obviously)
Tali and Garrus don't trust her because she is a Cerberus agent.
I think the other squadmates don't care.

Yeah I think I can agree, they do seem to relatively respect her. She's mentioned a few times. There's that one crewman in the crew quarters area who worries his family won't get evacuated from New Canton in time, and mentions how Miranda assures him they'll get them out.

About Garrus though, I think he qualifies in the "doesn't care" department. I don't think he has any particular feelings about Miranda. He mentions her only briefly.

[Kavadas]

If I had to pick an XO Garrus would be my first choice with Masani a close second.

But that would definitely conclude my "triumvirate" if I was forced to pick.

Modifié par Kavadas, 20 août 2010 - 11:28 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Kavadas wrote...

If I had to pick an XO Garrus would be my first choice with Masani a close second.

But that would definitely conclude my "triumvirate" if I was forced to pick.

You don't honestly expect the rest of the crew to still be alive when you get back, do you?

[Count Viceroy]

Zaeed? I'd rather appoint the space hamster in charge over him, He's badass and a good killer, but a leader he is not.

[Melra]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Kavadas wrote...

If I had to pick an XO Garrus would be my first choice with Masani a close second.

But that would definitely conclude my "triumvirate" if I was forced to pick.

You don't honestly expect the rest of the crew to still be alive when you get back, do you?

If you're meaning Zaeed, then I have to agree. 

My top 3 would be...

1. Miranda/Kaidan
2. Miranda/Kaidan
3. Garrus.

[Spartas Husky]

Continues to eat popcorn.... *munch munch* lol

[JGDD]

Nightwriter wrote...
About Garrus though, I think he qualifies in the "doesn't care" department. I don't think he has any particular feelings about Miranda. He mentions her only briefly.

Depends on how you played game. If you let a certain crewmate bite the dust because you didn't upgrade one part of the ship he makes his feelings about her very well known just before starting the final mission series.

[TheBoss1138]

Melrache wrote...

TheBoss1138 wrote...

In my own opinion Miranda would make a perfect XO on my ship...Mainly cause we hooked up on my male shep and her loyalty to me at the end ...thats if anyone took her to the final battle, you know what I be talking about

Well that's not really same. You can be loyal to your leader, but still be horrible XO. You can be world's best frontline soldier and still lack the ability to lead. 

I romanced her on my all 11 runs, but my desire to have her XO isn't because of that alone. I even have another candidate for that role. Kaidan would be great, imo. Miranda isn't just a tactician, she's also a great squadmate with great ways to help the group reach their goal.

true true,  but nothing a few lessons and some more time on the field could fix. Lol sadly kaiden is gone in my canon story .  Tho if I were to REALLY choose an XO, it would be Zaeed for meh...Hes just to awesome

[Nightwriter]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
About Garrus though, I think he qualifies in the "doesn't care" department. I don't think he has any particular feelings about Miranda. He mentions her only briefly.

Depends on how you played game. If you let a certain crewmate bite the dust because you didn't upgrade one part of the ship he makes his feelings about her very well known just before starting the final mission series.

Must see this. Must have Youtube video of it. Do want.

[Spartas Husky]

Nightwriter wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
About Garrus though, I think he qualifies in the "doesn't care" department. I don't think he has any particular feelings about Miranda. He mentions her only briefly.

Depends on how you played game. If you let a certain crewmate bite the dust because you didn't upgrade one part of the ship he makes his feelings about her very well known just before starting the final mission series.

Must see this. Must have Youtube video of it. Do want.

 me too, I want a video of garrus saying that. Never let anyone... erm perish on w/e they have to do... but I gota see this ... pls link? can't seem to find googling it.