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[ADLegend21]

Zaeed as XO? "XO Massani has the deck"

"alright listen up and listen guddamn good. I know shepard let Vido go but we're going to find that SOB and make him cry uncle and I do't care if i have to throw Joker at him he will pay for what he did to me!"



Miranda can at least fill in for Shepard and be a competent combat leader and be able to keep everyone in once piece (as shown in the suicide mission) she's fair and subjective and doesn't let her emotions cloud her judgement.

[Spartas Husky]

lol Zaeed as XO... nice hehehehehe. I can picture him doing paperwork...or at least forcing someone to do it for him lol

[Kavadas]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Kavadas wrote...

If I had to pick an XO Garrus would be my first choice with Masani a close second.

But that would definitely conclude my "triumvirate" if I was forced to pick.

You don't honestly expect the rest of the crew to still be alive when you get back, do you?

You could apply the same logic to Shepard himself, TBH.  "Sole Survivor" is an origin for Shep.  Sounds pretty much like a Zaeed story.  Even Torfan (Ruthless) is easily interchangeable with any of Zaeed's story.

Depending on how ME2 went for you it could have totally ended in classic "Zaeed fashion."

In fact, Zaeed is pretty much a Ruthless Shep +20 years.  He has a lot of experience.  He formed the Blue Suns.  I don't discount his abilities because once or twice in the game he has a couple of lines about how he was the only one to come back alive from mission X or Y.

He's one of, if not the most, competent squad members across both games.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Nightwriter wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
About Garrus though, I think he qualifies in the "doesn't care" department. I don't think he has any particular feelings about Miranda. He mentions her only briefly.

Depends on how you played game. If you let a certain crewmate bite the dust because you didn't upgrade one part of the ship he makes his feelings about her very well known just before starting the final mission series.

Must see this. Must have Youtube video of it. Do want.

As you wish.

[Melra]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
About Garrus though, I think he qualifies in the "doesn't care" department. I don't think he has any particular feelings about Miranda. He mentions her only briefly.

Depends on how you played game. If you let a certain crewmate bite the dust because you didn't upgrade one part of the ship he makes his feelings about her very well known just before starting the final mission series.

Must see this. Must have Youtube video of it. Do want.

As you wish.

I wonder why Tali caused such thing. I mean she's... Just Tali.. 

[Nightwriter]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As you wish.

Ahh, so in other words Garrus is just Jack's stand-in.

I wonder why justgimmedudedammit thought this had anything to do with Tali.

[Melra]

Nightwriter wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As you wish.

Ahh, so in other words Garrus is just Jack's stand-in.

I wonder why justgimmedudedammit thought this had anything to do with Tali.

What?

Ah nevermind, I forgot someone actually had a profile name like that. 

Modifié par Melrache, 21 août 2010 - 12:03 .

[JGDD]

Nightwriter wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As you wish.

Ahh, so in other words Garrus is just Jack's stand-in.

I wonder why justgimmedudedammit thought this had anything to do with Tali.

Uhm? I thought your original comment was about Miranda? Sorry, must have missed something.

[Barquiel]

Nightwriter wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As you wish.

Ahh, so in other words Garrus is just Jack's stand-in.

Garrus just wants attention because he is insecure

[Inquisitor Recon]

Losing part of your face does that to you I guess.

[Nightwriter]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As you wish.

Ahh, so in other words Garrus is just Jack's stand-in.

I wonder why justgimmedudedammit thought this had anything to do with Tali.

Uhm? I thought your original comment was about Miranda? Sorry, must have missed something.

Lol, I read Melrache's post about Tali and then thought the "certain crewmate" you were talking about was Tali.

We're manufacturing misunderstandings today by the dozen, would anyone like a free sample?

[LuxDragon]

Chicks dig scars though.

[Chuvvy]

Garrus is my XO.

[langelog]

Good, Miranda has experience, Garrus also has leadership skills, but he's too busy with calibrations lol. Miranda is my Shepard's LI, and she's perfect for the job, because she has leadership skills and other traits similar to Shepard's. I would definitley put Garrus ahead of all others as a candidate for First Officer, but Miranda, as I mentioned before, has experience as Shepard's XO and she does her job well.

[Nightwriter]

LuxDragon wrote...

Chicks dig scars though.

Well it just depends.




^ Yes.



^ NO.

[IanPolaris]

Barquiel wrote...

Garrus just wants attention because he is insecure

Nope.  Garrus speaks up because he doesn't trust Miranda and he has good reason not to especially if you completely Hades Dogs in ME1.

There is a strong difference between the two scenes.

-Polaris

[langelog]

Ieldra2 wrote...

This is getting ridiculous.

(1) Miranda actually gives good advice most of the time. Except once. If you'd follow Jacob's advice, Thane would be sent out the airlock, if you followed Tali's advice, the quarians would go to war against the geth and Legion would be destroyed. People make mistakes. And in her case, it's your understanding that contributes to that mistake as much as the way she says it. See my reply to Markinator for details.

(2) She's reasonably polite to everyone, except to Jack, which may be not as professional as you might wish, but I find it perfectly understandable. If I had my way, Jack would never have been recruited. And don't mention the prologue scene, I do not find her b*tchy, but perfectly reasonable in her rebuff of Shepard's intrusion into her personal space. I'd have done exactly the same in her place.

(3) The game shows us, while she's certainly not on Shepard's level, she's a enough good leader to lead both fire teams. And don't pull out your meta-reasoning - I already pointed out why that doesn't work. Which means, while she does have her self-esteem problems, it doesn't affect her efficiency enough to fail at her tasks.

So, IanPolaris, could you stop your ridiculous crusade and accept that other people experience the game differently than you do?

You tell em' Ieldra

[langelog]

Nightwriter wrote...

LuxDragon wrote...

Chicks dig scars though.

He's hawt! jk I'm scarred for life!

[Ieldra]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

If I recall the scene correctly, she says "Even I could do it." This implies she knows and accepts she's not the strongest biotic. She also shows no animosity towards Samara. In fact, she judges her overly competent, as you can see if you choose Samara as (first) Fire Team leader. Also a mistake, yes, but not the action of one who wants to stand in the limelight.

That is NOT what she says. When Samara explains (or confirms) the Biotic Bubble, Miranda without prompting says, "I can do it too".  She is both volunteering for the mission and (implicitly) stating that she's just as good (if not better) than MirandaSamara.[I guess this is what you wanted to say.]

You just ignored that she praises Samara's skills at another point in the mission. And I don't like to use meta-reasoning, but perhaps it will finally convince you that your interpretation isn't authoritative: This scene bugged me from the first. You know why? Because (1) I can't envision Miranda as stupid enough to risk the mission and her own survival for personal vanity. Because (2) she knows, and what's worse, the whole team knows that Samara is almost certainly a stronger biotic than she, and pushing herself to the front would only make herself look ridiculous. Sort of defeats the purpose, don't you think? So why does she do it? Or seems to do it? There must be another explanation. I still maintain that she's trying to give you options and this came across wrong, but what's more important: at this point she might be the only biotic left on the team, and Bioware didn't want to spend the resources for a character-dependent dialogue entry. Don't open Grunt's pod, don't upgrade the Normandy, don't recruit Samara and select Jacob as tech specialist, and Miranda's the only biotic left.   

I also note that Miranda at NO point suggests that anyone other than herself is the ideal fire-team leader.  It takes Jack (or Garrus) speaking out for her to say, "You need someone that can lead through experience" and still doesn't indicate that it should be anybody but her (and her body languages shows that too especially if you pick someone else.)

And isn't she right in that by what the game shows us? Whatever her shortcomings in personality, she *does* lead both Fire Teams successfully, and she leads the second one even if she's not loyal. You might choose to discount that by saying it's an artifact of her role in the plot, but my interpretation that her personal flaws don't affect her leadership in this situation is at least equally valid, and has the advantage I don't need meta-reasoning to explain it.

Yes, Bioware "flags" her as a good leader, but by modern professional standards of leadership, Bioware is simply wrong.  It's not the first time they are wrong about professional standards when it comes to various character traits.

You simply ignore the possibility that her personal flaws don't affect her leadership skills much. As for bad outcomes: the only death you could reasonably lay at her feet is - see above - as easily explained away by the same kind of meta-reasoning you use to explain away her success as Fire Team leader.

Sure Miranda 'admits' she makes mitakes in private when no one else can
see it, but not once in the game itself with game decisions does
Miranda admit that she's wrong (either about Jack, about the Biotic
Bubble, or about anything really).

And? In that she's no different from anyone else. What do you expect? That she apologizes in front of the whole crew? Do you expect Garrus to apologize in front of the whole crew for taking the team on his personal revenge which proved, in the end, completely superfluous and a waste of time if you played that way?

Wanting to have sex in a public place is not in of itself a sign of a bad leader but as Redcoat concluded, it is a giant red flag when combined with Miranda's other flaws and personal issues.  She simply is not professional leadership material.

The game tells us otherwise. It tells us that her flaws don't make her a bad leader. Garrus and Tali know Cerberus from ME1, so it's understandable they don't trust her, and we don't need to talk about Jack, but the crew seem to respect her. They believe she - and Shepard - will get the job done. Samara calls her a hard woman but also seems to respect her. Mordin and Miranda think similarly. And the rest doesn't care much as long as the job is done.

You're basically interpreting her the same way as anyone else who doesn't like her: play up her flaws until they seem to color absolutely everything she does, until they overshadow the competence she does show in the game so much that you don't notice it any more. You can do that, it's your experience of the game, but to think that everyone else experiences it the same way is delusional, and to think everyone *should* experience it the same way is unbelievably arrogant.

I'd like to end this with a personal comment which is, of course, not authoritative: I'd rather work under someone like Miranda than someone like Shepard. I'm very much for cool rationality and extremely allergic against emotional appeal - the latter always triggers my propaganda alarm. I won't exactly like someone who rebuffs me like Miranda does Shepard in the prologue, but I won't lose my professional trust. Emotional appeal will make me lose it. Shepard's speeches make me cringe and want to slap the sh*t out of him. I always select "no speeches" if that option is available, and wish it was available more often.  

And now I'm *really* done with this thread. I'd rather play some game.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 août 2010 - 07:21 .

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
You just ignored that she praises Samara's skills at another point in the mission. And I don't like to use meta-reasoning, but perhaps it will finally convince you that your interpretation isn't authoritative: This scene bugged me from the first. You know why? Because (1) I can't envision Miranda as stupid enough to risk the mission and her own survival for personal vanity. Because (2) she knows, and what's worse, the whole team knows that Samara is almost certainly a stronger biotic than she, and pushing herself to the front would only make herself look ridiculous. Sort of defeats the purpose, don't you think? So why does she do it? Or seems to do it? There must be another explanation. I still maintain that she's trying to give you options and this came across wrong, but what's more important: at this point she might be the only biotic left on the team, and Bioware didn't want to spend the resources for a character-dependent dialogue entry. Don't open Grunt's pod, don't upgrade the Normandy, don't recruit Samara and select Jacob as tech specialist, and Miranda's the only biotic left.   
[/quote]

I am not ignoring the fact she praises Samara's skill elsewhere.  That damns Miranda all the more.  Miranda doesn't have to open her trap.  Doing so puts lives at risk.  Also if the goal is to present alternatives, there are most definately other ways of doing so other than putting herself in front as Samara's biotic equal. 

No, when Miranda says, "I can do it too" she is doing it to attract attention to herself and away from Samara even though she knows Samara is the better choice.  That is a sign of deep seated insecurity which makes Miranda a poor leader.

I will explain the difference in metareasoning too.  In my case when it comes to fireteam leaders, I have confirmed that no other voice acting files are present to give Shepard crew choices in the suicide mission.  That means the game REQUIRES that Miranda survive to make those lines and THAT requires that she be "flagged" as a good leader even though she isn't.

The game does NOT require that Miranda be a good biotic in order to deliver those lines.  You could cut Miranda's scene out completely in the Biotic bubble and just have Samara be the autopick and all is good.

[quote]
You simply ignore the possibility that her personal flaws don't affect her leadership skills much. As for bad outcomes: the only death you could reasonably lay at her feet is - see above - as easily explained away by the same kind of meta-reasoning you use to explain away her success as Fire Team leader.
[/quote[

I am not ignoring the possibility.  I have considered and dismissed it.  That is different.  Miranda at several points in the game especially with Jack but not only with her shows that her personal flaws get in the way of dealing with other people.  Even you admit her people skills need a lot of work.  That is a fatal flaw when it comes to combat leadership.

Sorry but it is.

As for the metareasoning, I have already illustrated the difference.  The game forces Miranda to be flagged as a 'good' leader even if she isn't because Bioware was too cheap to invest in a few more lines of voice acting.  That doesn't apply to the biotic scene.

[quote]
And? In that she's no different from anyone else. What do you expect? That she apologizes in front of the whole crew? Do you expect Garrus to apologize in front of the whole crew for taking the team on his personal revenge which proved, in the end, completely superfluous and a waste of time if you played that way?
[/quote]

Please don't be silly.  Of course not.  However, it would behoove Miranda to apologize to Jack at least in private.  It would behoove Miranda to at least once admit that she was wrong about any specific choice she pushed during the game.  She does not and she makes some doozies.

[quote]
The game tells us otherwise. It tells us that her flaws don't make her a bad leader. Garrus and Tali know Cerberus from ME1, so it's understandable they don't trust her, and we don't need to talk about Jack, but the crew seem to respect her. They believe she - and Shepard - will get the job done. Samara calls her a hard woman but also seems to respect her. Mordin and Miranda think similarly. And the rest doesn't care much as long as the job is done.
[/quote]

Samara doesn't say that she respects Miranda.  Samara says that Miranda is a hard woman that deals with per problems privately as it should be.  You can interpret that as personal respect (as I happen to), but Samara never says, "I trust and like Miranda" either implicity or explicity.  In fact if you play a Paragon Shep, Samara makes it very plain that she is sworn to YOU and not Cerberus (a point Tali makes as well).  Mordin doesn't express any opinion about Miranda whatsoever, so you can not say that he likes or respects her or not.  In fact Mordin says remarkably little about Cerberus other than he is familiar with them.   Grunt is another one that is personally loyal to YOU and not Miranda (and he makes that clear after his loyalty mission).  Zaeed and Kasumi don't care but they are bought and paid for by Cerberus.   Legion is a machine and as such is an entirely different baliawick when it comes to leadership (especially since much of leadership is emotional based and Legion doesn't have emotions).

[quote]
You're basically interpreting her the same way as anyone else who doesn't like her: play up her flaws until they seem to color absolutely everything she does, until they overshadow the competence she does show in the game so much that you don't notice it any more. You can do that, it's your experience of the game, but to think that everyone else experiences it the same way is delusional, and to think everyone *should* experience it the same way is unbelievably arrogant.[/quote]

I don't hate Miranda.  That's your overreaction and it does show emotional investment in the character and bias on your part.  I do think the game shows based on my own personal experiences and knowledge of leadership training that Miranda in fact is not a good leader.  That's all.

[quote]
I'd like to end this with a personal comment which is, of course, not authoritative: I'd rather work under someone like Miranda than someone like Shepard. I'm very much for cool rationality and extremely allergic against emotional appeal - the latter always triggers my propaganda alarm. I won't exactly like someone who rebuffs me like Miranda does Shepard in the prologue, but I won't lose my professional trust. Emotional appeal will make me lose it. Shepard's speeches make me cringe and want to slap the sh*t out of him. I always select "no speeches" if that option is available, and wish it was available more often..[/quote]

In a company, sure.  Miranda is a terrific manager and terrific administrator.  However, when the bullets fly and there is a high stress situation, Miranda loses much of that cool rationality (see her loyalty mission for example), and Shepard does not.  You seem to think that Shepard makes emotional appeals just to get the Normandy from point A to point B on time.  The game implies just the opposite.  Under normal (boredome) conditions, he sits back and lets the managers manage and Miranda IS good at that....I've never said otherwise.

When the bullets fly, however, you need someone that can appeal to emotions because fundamentally at least in emotional human beings (and with the exception of Legion it applies to ME's aliens as well), emotional appeal is stronger and far more fundamental than rational appeal.  People will charge bunkers under machinegun fire facing near certain death because of leadership delivered with emotional appeal.  They will shoot the same officer (in the back if need be) if they were pushed out after being read a dry rational appeal.

I like rationality too, but leadership is fundamentally emotional in nature.

-Polaris

[Boombox]

I think Miranda is a good leader and besides Kaidan I wouldn't want anyone else to be the XO. I would love it if we got to choose our XO.

[Raizo]

IanPolaris wrote...

Renegade Shep is trusted, respected, and feared.  Paragon Shep is trusted, respected, and loved (and feared by some).  Miranda is simply disliked and untrusted.

See the difference?

-Polaris

I've been reading your posts in this thread for some time and you most really hate Miranda.

To the best of my knowledge, the only person on the Normandy who has anything against Miranda is Jack. All the other squadmates are more or less indifferent to her but they do acknowelge her skills and her qualifications, noone questions her role on Normandy or on the mission. Is she liked, probably not but she is not disliked either. Is she trusted, she's a Cerebus agent and the vast majority of Shepards squadmates are not human so they probably don't trust her all that much but they do seem to trust her to watch thier backs in the field, do her job and follow Shepard like she said she would, it's his mission, he calls the shots.

[IanPolaris]

Raizo wrote...

I've been reading your posts in this thread for some time and you most really hate Miranda.

To the best of my knowledge, the only person on the Normandy who has anything against Miranda is Jack. All the other squadmates are more or less indifferent to her but they do acknowelge her skills and her qualifications, noone questions her role on Normandy or on the mission. Is she liked, probably not but she is not disliked either. Is she trusted, she's a Cerebus agent and the vast majority of Shepards squadmates are not human so they probably don't trust her all that much but they do seem to trust her to watch thier backs in the field, do her job and follow Shepard like she said she would, it's his mission, he calls the shots.

Actually I don't hate Miranda.  I am just objective about her qualities as a leader and most here are not.  Garrus doesn't trust Miranda as far as he can toss her and if Jack dies before the Suicide Mission he makes it perfectly clear and directly says that he isn't alone.  Tali doesn't like Miranda either (admittedly becasue she's Cerberus but she doesn't). 

Also Miranda doesn't show the skills needed to be a good leader in her dialog and DOES show many of the attributes of poor leaders in the same as Redcoat pointed out far better than I have.

I am not on an anti-Miranda crusade.  Fact is I sort of like her as a character, but don't think she's something she's not.  That's all.

-Polaris

[Caihn]

Boombox wrote...

I think Miranda is a good leader and besides Kaidan I wouldn't want anyone else to be the XO. I would love it if we got to choose our XO.

Agreed.

[grim_reaper_13]

Boombox wrote...

I think Miranda is a good leader and besides Kaidan I wouldn't want anyone else to be the XO. I would love it if we got to choose our XO.

Well actaully i would like Miri as my XO for any of my characters. For my paragon playthroughs i would prefer Jacob and for the renegade ones Garrus.Nothing personal Miri but Garrus and Jacob are my bro's