479 réponses à ce sujet

[LuxDragon]

Choosing our XO would end this debate rather well.

[1136342t54_]

IanPolaris wrote...

Raizo wrote...

I've been reading your posts in this thread for some time and you most really hate Miranda.

To the best of my knowledge, the only person on the Normandy who has anything against Miranda is Jack. All the other squadmates are more or less indifferent to her but they do acknowelge her skills and her qualifications, noone questions her role on Normandy or on the mission. Is she liked, probably not but she is not disliked either. Is she trusted, she's a Cerebus agent and the vast majority of Shepards squadmates are not human so they probably don't trust her all that much but they do seem to trust her to watch thier backs in the field, do her job and follow Shepard like she said she would, it's his mission, he calls the shots.

Actually I don't hate Miranda.  I am just objective about her qualities as a leader and most here are not.  Garrus doesn't trust Miranda as far as he can toss her and if Jack dies before the Suicide Mission he makes it perfectly clear and directly says that he isn't alone.  Tali doesn't like Miranda either (admittedly becasue she's Cerberus but she doesn't). 

Also Miranda doesn't show the skills needed to be a good leader in her dialog and DOES show many of the attributes of poor leaders in the same as Redcoat pointed out far better than I have.

I am not on an anti-Miranda crusade.  Fact is I sort of like her as a character, but don't think she's something she's not.  That's all.

-Polaris

 I just wanted to say something on the reasoning behind Garrus dislike of Miranda. Its not because she is a bad leader or her people skills need some work but because of who she works for and her obvious loyalty to the organization. The Normandy's crew show little if any dislike towards Miranda. The only ones that disliked her were Garrus, Jack, and Tali.

[Nightwriter]

The Garrus in my universe has shown no dislike of Miranda whatsoever. He speaks of her quite neutrally. And the Tali of my universe hates Cerberus but I can't recall her ever mentioning Miranda in particular.

[PsyrenY]

LuxDragon wrote...

Choosing our XO would end this debate rather well.

I choose EDI.

1) Guaranteed to survive
2) Always has the deck
3) MUCH more useful than Pressly

[Nightwriter]

I doubt we'll ever be able to choose our XO.

Even if we could, the number of possible candidates and the amount of variables they would have to account for would make the decision pretty much meaningless.

[Acadaca]

I don't know why, but as much as I like Miranda, I'd rather have Thane as my XO.. despite Kepler's..



Just figured I'd rather take advice from him over Miranda..

[Oblivious]

Wow, 19 pages of reading and Polaris really has a strong dislike for Miranda. As far as I'm concerned yes, she is insecure (what girl isn't?). Yes, she is a cruel **** at the start. Yes, Tali and possibly Garrus makes it perfectly clear that they don't trust her. However, she has proven herself as an efficient leader of all sorts time and again. On and off the field she has proven she can put the mission above personal feelings and will do anything to succeed. She is the perfect XO.



Also I would like to add that aside from Jack noone has anything against her personally. None of the crew (except the jealous female in the engine room) speak ill of her, they instead treat her with respect. Most of their hate stems from the fact that she is a Cerberus loyalist and they don't trust Cerberus. What then? After the suicide mission Miranda has personally shown she can make both the correct tactical choices to ensure success and get her team through. Not only that but she actually resigns from Cerberus. What reason do the other crew members have to distrust her now? As far as I'm concerned the ship's crew and your team (except for Jack) have no reason to hate her but every reason to admire her.



BTW Polaris you keep talking about why Garrus is a better choice. Garrus is a TERRIBLE option as XO: To be the executive officer aboard a war vessel is completely different form that Army crap you keep throwing around. Navy XO's have to manage the day-to-day hassles so that the CO can operate efficiently and should the CO perish they must assume command. Garrus is reckless, impatient, and quick to anger. Not only that but he let of his teammates betray him and kill off the entire team. Miranda has specifically stated that “I'm an excellent judge of character. I think you'll find my assessments to be right on the money.”



Miranda's serious no none-sense attitude yet powerful leadership qualities are the perfect thing for XO, despite anybodies personal opinion of her.

[TheShadowmancer]

Garrus definitely. He is the only person I could count on. He is loyal and comes from a race that believes in justice. It seems emotions do not get in the way of his actions. Not much else to say though. I always thought miranda was a bit of a ****.

[Oblivious]

TheShadowmancer wrote...

Garrus definitely. He is the only person I could count on. He is loyal and comes from a race that believes in justice. It seems emotions do not get in the way of his actions. Not much else to say though. I always thought miranda was a bit of a ****.

Yea, Garrus never lets emotions get in the way of his job. It's not like he left C-Sec cause he was angry or wanted revenge against his former teammate and a crazy doctor or that he assassinated gangsters in a good mood. Garrus is definitely the calmest most rational teammate in both ME games [/sarcasm]

[IanPolaris]

Oblivious wrote...

BTW Polaris you keep talking about why Garrus is a better choice. Garrus is a TERRIBLE option as XO: To be the executive officer aboard a war vessel is completely different form that Army crap you keep throwing around. Navy XO's have to manage the day-to-day hassles so that the CO can operate efficiently and should the CO perish they must assume command. Garrus is reckless, impatient, and quick to anger. Not only that but he let of his teammates betray him and kill off the entire team. Miranda has specifically stated that “I'm an excellent judge of character. I think you'll find my assessments to be right on the money.”.

Oblivious, the only way your assessments are right on the money is if that money is measured in confederate dollars. 

1.  Garrus was betrayed.  The reason he lost his team was he wasn't there.   I also note in the same situation (betryal) Miranda loses an entire space station and unlike Garrus makes no attempt to try to salvage the people she can.  That's failure dwarf's Garrus' easy.  If you are going to hold this against Garrus, you have to hold Wilson against Miranda.  Otherwise you are being a hypocrit.

2.  I have never said that managing paperwork and doing adminitrative details wasn't an important part of being an XO and I never said that Miranda didn't do a good job at it.  However, an XO has to be able to LEAD at critical times, and Miranda is not shown to have that abiity.

3.  As for Garrus, Garrus does keep his emotions in control, does care about the welfare of his people (which Miranda does not), and he doesn't let his emotions get in the way of his mission (which Miranda does).  Furthermore, Garrus doesn't allow his feelings to interfere with his relationshiop with the rest of the crew (Cerberus or not).  Miranda does (especially with Jack).

No, Miranda's leadership abilities leave much to be desired.  Simple as that.  Miranda's position on your ship is that of "Political Officer" or "Commissar".  You aren't given the choice about that either at least until after the suicide mission.

-Polaris

[Spartas Husky]

wow this still going lol sweet.

[Shadow_broker]

IanPolaris wrote...

Oblivious wrote...

BTW Polaris you keep talking about why Garrus is a better choice. Garrus is a TERRIBLE option as XO: To be the executive officer aboard a war vessel is completely different form that Army crap you keep throwing around. Navy XO's have to manage the day-to-day hassles so that the CO can operate efficiently and should the CO perish they must assume command. Garrus is reckless, impatient, and quick to anger. Not only that but he let of his teammates betray him and kill off the entire team. Miranda has specifically stated that “I'm an excellent judge of character. I think you'll find my assessments to be right on the money.”.

Oblivious, the only way your assessments are right on the money is if that money is measured in confederate dollars. 

1.  Garrus was betrayed.  The reason he lost his team was he wasn't there.   I also note in the same situation (betryal) Miranda loses an entire space station and unlike Garrus makes no attempt to try to salvage the people she can.  That's failure dwarf's Garrus' easy.  If you are going to hold this against Garrus, you have to hold Wilson against Miranda.  Otherwise you are being a hypocrit.

2.  I have never said that managing paperwork and doing adminitrative details wasn't an important part of being an XO and I never said that Miranda didn't do a good job at it.  However, an XO has to be able to LEAD at critical times, and Miranda is not shown to have that abiity.

3.  As for Garrus, Garrus does keep his emotions in control, does care about the welfare of his people (which Miranda does not), and he doesn't let his emotions get in the way of his mission (which Miranda does).  Furthermore, Garrus doesn't allow his feelings to interfere with his relationshiop with the rest of the crew (Cerberus or not).  Miranda does (especially with Jack).

No, Miranda's leadership abilities leave much to be desired.  Simple as that.  Miranda's position on your ship is that of "Political Officer" or "Commissar".  You aren't given the choice about that either at least until after the suicide mission.

-Polaris

 
Garrus  was only led away because he let personal feelings get in his way as he states and can not keep his emotions under control he is well known as the renegade squadmate
Miranda dosen't save anyone but shepard on the station because shepard is all that matters and by the tone of her dialagoue she is very regretful she couldn't save them once you reach TIM station "alot of people lost their lives on that sation, i just hope it was worth it"

Miranda can lead the 2nd fire team for suicide mission proving she can lead in critical times duh
Miranda also trys very hard to keep personal feelings seperate from the mission as she sates in her romance

Jack started the fight with miranda presuambly, i doubt miranda called jack up to her office it seems more likley jack got off her nut and charged in there. also from what we see miranda was remaining very calm not escalting the fight to anything more than a simple arguement while jack was throwing chairs

[LuxDragon]

Considering that Miranda has Cerberus Leader/Tactician as her core talent, I'm going to disagree with you Polaris and say that the game simply didn't convey her leadership ability well enough. Or perhaps your 'vendetta' against Miranda is coloring your opinion. (Which I'm not saying is right or wrong, thus the definition of an opinon.)



1) Betrayal sucks. The right betrayer (Or spy) can gut an entire operation or organization. A squad, a building, a base, or an entire facility. Garrus and Miranda both failed in this regard. And I have no idea what you mean by Miranda "not" trying to save who she can. She saved Shepard and Jacob. Plus, as you ran around the base, people were getting killed in front of your eyes. Could you save them? No? Then don't expect any miracles from Miranda.



2) I think your definition of XO is incorrect:



The XO billet is not a command; rather it is considered staff. The XO is typically responsible for the management of day-to-day activities, such as maintenance and logistics, freeing the unit commander (Shepard) to concentrate on tactical planning and execution. The XO also takes charge in the absence of the CO. While the experience gained as an XO is highly beneficial for an officer's professional development, never serving in the position will not preclude an officer from commanding later.



This makes it an admistrative duty. Garrus is anything but. The job of an XO tends to be romanticized about being a leader (Star Trek is particularly guilty of this. Incrediably poor imitation of military). XO's are almost NEVER called on to lead during combat unless the captain is unable to do so and usually, things have gone horribly wrong to begin with if that happens.



3) Nothing against Garrus, but he himself said that he was not a good turian. Good soldiers follow orders, even if they don't like it. He stated himself that he doesn't follow the orders of his superiors without questioning them if he has a problem. He complains, bucks the system, and argues vocally about his opinions. All very poor characteristics of a XO and detrimental to crew moral. He's a good, solid soldier and a FIRE TEAM leader, but not officer material. To manage a ship outside of combat? He hates admistrative duties because he hated admistration and part of that is politics.



Miranda does care about the people under her command. If you listen to the two crewmen on deck 3, she personally oversees that Holstron's family is relocated to Earth, despite the fact that she's on a mission to stop the Collectors.



Jack has a problem with Miranda. She has a problem with everybody (Except Shepard). She's poor excuse to use.



Finally, your label of "political officer" is crap. It's the position of communist Soviet Union and China. Their job is to uphold ideologies to ensure government control within the military.



There are non-humans working on the Normandy. I don't think Cerberus rhetoric follows here unless Miranda had all the aliens executed without me knowing.



"Oblivious (Obviously), the only way your assessments are right on the money is if that money is measured in confederate dollars."



Don't sling insults. It's petty.

[IanPolaris]

LuxDragon wrote...

Considering that Miranda has Cerberus Leader/Tactician as her core talent, I'm going to disagree with you Polaris and say that the game simply didn't convey her leadership ability well enough. Or perhaps your 'vendetta' against Miranda is coloring your opinion. (Which I'm not saying is right or wrong, thus the definition of an opinon.)

Read my original post.  I didn't come in with a "vendetta' against Miranda and I still don't have one.  If my position has hardened it's because of the various (and organized...yes I saw deliberate forum attacks on me being organized) attacks on me by those that are Miranda-philes.

Edit:  As for if she should be a good leader or not, her dossier notwithstanding, she doesn't show it which is really my point here.

1) Betrayal sucks. The right betrayer (Or spy) can gut an entire operation or organization. A squad, a building, a base, or an entire facility. Garrus and Miranda both failed in this regard. And I have no idea what you mean by Miranda "not" trying to save who she can. She saved Shepard and Jacob. Plus, as you ran around the base, people were getting killed in front of your eyes. Could you save them? No? Then don't expect any miracles from Miranda.

Miranda shows no regard for those that might be still alive in the base when you meet her.  She also takes deliberate steps to cut-off shepard and keep him from getting to the docking bay first which almost certainly cost the lives of her people.

2) I think your definition of XO is incorrect:

The XO billet is not a command; rather it is considered staff. The XO is typically responsible for the management of day-to-day activities, such as maintenance and logistics, freeing the unit commander (Shepard) to concentrate on tactical planning and execution. The XO also takes charge in the absence of the CO. While the experience gained as an XO is highly beneficial for an officer's professional development, never serving in the position will not preclude an officer from commanding later.

This makes it an admistrative duty. Garrus is anything but. The job of an XO tends to be romanticized about being a leader (Star Trek is particularly guilty of this. Incrediably poor imitation of military). XO's are almost NEVER called on to lead during combat unless the captain is unable to do so and usually, things have gone horribly wrong to begin with if that happens.

Wrong.  An XO is considered both a staff and command slot.  If you do not (at least in the USN) get a passing OER as an XO, you will NEVER be considered for independant command no matter what the size...no matter if you retire an admiral.  Yes, being an XO has distinct staff responsibilities, but unlike other staff officers, having leadership qualities is mandatory for an XO and it's a large part (an in fact the most important part) of how an XO is judged.  That's because the XO has to exercise leadership when the captain isn't around or isn't available.

3) Nothing against Garrus, but he himself said that he was not a good turian. Good soldiers follow orders, even if they don't like it. He stated himself that he doesn't follow the orders of his superiors without questioning them if he has a problem. He complains, bucks the system, and argues vocally about his opinions. All very poor characteristics of a XO and detrimental to crew moral. He's a good, solid soldier and a FIRE TEAM leader, but not officer material. To manage a ship outside of combat? He hates admistrative duties because he hated admistration and part of that is politics.

Garrus doesn't complain in front of the crew.  NOT ONCE does he do this.  A key ingredient of being an XO is NOT being a "yes man" but questioning the captain within certain bounds (which Garrus stays well within).  Of course a large part of this depends on the captain, but one of the more important duties of an XO is to say, "Sir, for the record, have you considered (alternative X,Y,Z)".

Miranda does care about the people under her command. If you listen to the two crewmen on deck 3, she personally oversees that Holstron's family is relocated to Earth, despite the fact that she's on a mission to stop the Collectors.

I have never seen such evidence.  Not once.  I have seen Miranda coldly disregard the lives of those around her.

Jack has a problem with Miranda. She has a problem with everybody (Except Shepard). She's poor excuse to use.

Jack is a person I (edit) wish I (/edit) didn't have to recruit, but sometimes leaders don't get to choose who they will lead (in fact that's the usual case).   Where I fault Miranda is how she handles Jack and I have extremely good reasons for this.  Given Jack's background and obvious (and completely justified) antipathy towards Cerberus, strutting up (and Miranda DOES strut in this scene) and declare to Jack, 'I am second in command, and on this ship we follow orders" is almost textbook bad leadership.  I can't think of an approach more likely to cause a possibly powerful and psychotic biotic to go rampaging through the ship.  Fortunately Shep is such a good leader that he easily defuses the situation.  Her other interactions with Jack are no better and are typcial for her near complete disregard of the importance of human interaction...which is a failure on Miranda's part.

Finally, your label of "political officer" is crap. It's the position of communist Soviet Union and China. Their job is to uphold ideologies to ensure government control within the military.

There are non-humans working on the Normandy. I don't think Cerberus rhetoric follows here unless Miranda had all the aliens executed without me knowing.

Nope.  My assessment of Miranda as Ship's Political Officer is dead on the mark and yes, it's EXACTLY the sort of position you'd expect in the Chinese or Soviet Navy.  In fact if you talk with Edi or even Miranda herself, her duties are almost lifted word for word from the expected duties of a Soviet Naval Politicla Officer.  She "ensures that Shepard will succeed" (almost straight from the Soviet Naval Manual for Political Officers), has hidden bugs and information that is routed to her office and her office alone and sends communications to the Illusive Man (read Politburu) that even the Ship's Captain doesn't have access to.

Miranda is absolutely Cerberus' political officer on the Normandy.

As for Aliens, when the TIM (Politburo) explicity gives the captain not only permission but directives to pick up aliens, the Political Officer will comply.  The Political Officer will also insure that alien attitudes don't corrupt the crew unduly.

"Oblivious (Obviously), the only way your assessments are right on the money is if that money is measured in confederate dollars."

Don't sling insults. It's petty.

Takes two to tango.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  As for her being a "good leader", that's simply plot-armor (as has already been confirmed by the audio files) to keep her alive until the final part of the suicide mission.  Given that each squaddie should be good at something, and given that even a disloyal Miranda has plot-armor, the only way to make it work while giving her a job she can do 'succesfully' was to make her a 'leader'. It's really that simple.  It's the only reason why a disloyal Miranda survives the second fireteam mission.  You can confirm this by arranging it so the seeker swarms take Miranda on the long walk.  If you do, Miranda miraculously becomes unparalyzed, somehow slips through sealed blast doors unseen, and reappears at Shepard's side just in time for the last mission.

Wow!  If I knew Miranda could do all that, she could probably take on the Reapers all by herself (sarc).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 août 2010 - 06:38 .

[PWENER]

Miri isn't a good leader, that's obvious. She's smart, but no leader. Also, Garrus is too naive to lead anyone outside of combat.



Both would make (not horrible) bad XOs.

[LuxDragon]

IanPolaris wrote...

Read my original post.  I didn't come in with a "vendetta' against Miranda and I still don't have one.  If my position has hardened it's because of the various (and organized...yes I saw deliberate forum attacks on me being organized) attacks on me by those that are Miranda-philes.

Edit:  As for if she should be a good leader or not, her dossier notwithstanding, she doesn't show it which is really my point here.

Miranda shows no regard for those that might be still alive in the base when you meet her.  She also takes deliberate steps to cut-off shepard and keep him from getting to the docking bay first which almost certainly cost the lives of her people.

You're going to need evidence to support this. She wakes you up, tells you where to get weapons and armor and basically tells you to haul ass to the shuttles. She even told you to run through fire to do it. At what point did she 'cut-off' Shepard? At what point did she take even deliberate steps to plan anything with the station was under attack?

Wrong.  An XO is considered both a staff and command slot.  If you do not (at least in the USN) get a passing OER as an XO, you will NEVER be considered for independant command no matter what the size...no matter if you retire an admiral.  Yes, being an XO has distinct staff responsibilities, but unlike other staff officers, having leadership qualities is mandatory for an XO and it's a large part (an in fact the most important part) of how an XO is judged.  That's because the XO has to exercise leadership when the captain isn't around or isn't available.

Seriously, don't argue with me on this. I got family that worked in the military.

According to the "Basic Military Requirements" naval manual, the XO's job is this:


The executive officer (XO) is the aide or “executive” to the commanding officer. The XO is usually the next ranking line officer aboard ship. As such, the XO is the direct representative of the commanding officer in maintaining the general efficiency of the ship. Some of the XO’s responsibilities include the following:
The command’s assigned personnel. With the help of department heads, the XO arranges and coordinates all ship’s work, drills, exercises, and policing and inspecting the ship.
Investigate matters affecting the discipline and conduct of the crew and makes recommendations concerning these matters to the commanding officer.

Approve or disapprove liberty lists and leave requests.
Inspect the ship and receive readiness reports from the various department heads when the ship is cleared for action; then report to the CO when the ship is ready for action.
If the captain is disabled during battle, the XO normally becomes the acting commanding officer. For this reason, the location of the XO’s battle station (determined by the captain) is some distance from the captain’s. This prevents disablement of both officers at the same time.


After a battle, the executive officer makes a detailed report to the commanding officer.Taken from the Navy's website:

As one Executive Officer put it, "The XO is the CO's alter ego and right-hand man."

At no point is it considered a command position. It's always considered staff. Even when taking control of the ship, its temporary until the CO recovers or a new one is assigned.

Garrus doesn't complain in front of the crew.  NOT ONCE does he do this.  A key ingredient of being an XO is NOT being a "yes man" but questioning the captain within certain bounds (which Garrus stays well within).  Of course a large part of this depends on the captain, but one of the more important duties of an XO is to say, "Sir, for the record, have you considered (alternative X,Y,Z)".

Agreed. However, can we confidently say that if he's the XO? It's different postion than what he has now so why would he complain in front of the crew?

I have never seen such evidence.  Not once.  I have seen Miranda coldly disregard the lives of those around her.

Seriously, I JUST said that you should listen to the two crewmembers Rolston and Patel. Miranda (And they name her specifically) arranged transport for Rolston's wife, daughter, and mother-in-law to get out of the Terminus and to earth. Safely, I might add since the colony they were on was just taken out by the Collectors. That's hard evidence right there.

Jack is a person I didn't have to recruit, but sometimes leaders don't get to choose who they will lead (in fact that's the usual case).   Where I fault Miranda is how she handles Jack and I have extremely good reasons for this.  Given Jack's background and obvious (and completely justified) antipathy towards Cerberus, strutting up (and Miranda DOES strut in this scene) and declare to Jack, 'I am second in command, and on this ship we follow orders" is almost textbook bad leadership.  I can't think of an approach more likely to cause a possibly powerful and psychotic biotic to go rampaging through the ship.  Fortunately Shep is such a good leader that he easily defuses the situation.  Her other interactions with Jack are no better and are typcial for her near complete disregard of the importance of human interaction...which is a failure on Miranda's part.

Everyone has different methods of establishing order. With that said, she's the XO. That's the ground rules. Was she supposed to be warm and friendly? Offer cookies maybe? It's a warship. It was simple and poignant. Hell, even Shepard's renegade dialogue was way worse. Not to mention the squad members you take with you. "Knock her out and take her aboard". Yeah, I pretty sure if that didn't set her off, Miranda's speech wouldn't. 

Nope.  My assessment of Miranda as Ship's Political Officer is dead on the mark and yes, it's EXACTLY the sort of position you'd expect in the Chinese or Soviet Navy.  In fact if you talk with Edi or even Miranda herself, her duties are almost lifted word for word from the expected duties of a Soviet Naval Politicla Officer.  She "ensures that Shepard will succeed" (almost straight from the Soviet Naval Manual for Political Officers), has hidden bugs and information that is routed to her office and her office alone and sends communications to the Illusive Man (read Politburu) that even the Ship's Captain doesn't have access to.

Miranda is absolutely Cerberus' political officer on the Normandy.

As for Aliens, when the TIM (Politburo) explicity gives the captain not only permission but directives to pick up aliens, the Political Officer will comply.  The Political Officer will also insure that alien attitudes don't corrupt the crew unduly.

You'll have to provide a link to this "Soviet Naval Political Officers", because I'm of the opinion she meant that the mission will succeed because she'll do whatever it takes to see the mission through. Also, you don't have evidence that the bugs go to her office. It would be more effiecient if the went through EDI instead, really. Besides, even if the bugs went to her, Cerberus is a clandestine agency. This is per the norm. Everything was practically given to Shepard, so is anyone surprised that there were strings attached? This makes her a spy.

Also, a Political Officer's role is defined as:

The supervisory political officer responsible for the political education (ideology) and organisation, and loyalty to the government of the military. The commissars' work is confined to non-combat functions.

As for the 'alien attitudes' corrupting the crew, I hardly saw the crew maintaining Cerberus Partyline. Some of them were even excited to work with aliens. (The two bridge crewmen, Matthews and Hadley and the cafeteria crewmen, Goldstein and Hawthorne.)

Unless you're saying that Miranda also sucks as a political officer, I really don't think that's her role AT ALL.

Takes two to tango.

Then don't dance.

Modifié par LuxDragon, 24 août 2010 - 07:05 .

[IanPolaris]

LuxDragon wrote...

You're going to need evidence to support this. She wakes you up, tells you where to get weapons and armor and basically tells you to haul ass to the shuttles. She even told you to run through fire to do it. At what point did she 'cut-off' Shepard? At what point did she take even deliberate steps to plan anything with the station was under attack?

If Miranda tried to save what was left of her personelle and station since it's established she was in "D Wing" that was overrun by Mechs, she would not have been able to beat Jacob and Shepard to the docking bay....especially since she would have had a longer way to go, by herself, and aginast more opposition.

She just "happens" to show up at the docking bay and shoots Wilson before Wilson can say a word?  Yes, Wilson was supicious but Miranda's actions were equally so....and she shows no remorse for her people.....except as tools to accomplish her goal....capture Shepard and take him to TIM.  In fact Miranda out and out says that if she had her way, Shep would have a control chip in him.

Seriously, don't argue with me on this. I got family that worked in the military.

Don't argue with me.  I used to be a commissioned officer in the military.

According to the "Basic Military Requirements" naval manual, the XO's job is this:

The executive officer (XO) is the aide or “executive” to the commanding officer. The XO is usually the next ranking line officer aboard ship. As such, the XO is the direct representative of the commanding officer in maintaining the general efficiency of the ship. Some of the XO’s responsibilities include the following:
The command’s assigned personnel. With the help of department heads, the XO arranges and coordinates all ship’s work, drills, exercises, and policing and inspecting the ship.
Investigate matters affecting the discipline and conduct of the crew and makes recommendations concerning these matters to the commanding officer.

Approve or disapprove liberty lists and leave requests.
Inspect the ship and receive readiness reports from the various department heads when the ship is cleared for action; then report to the CO when the ship is ready for action.
If the captain is disabled during battle, the XO normally becomes the acting commanding officer. For this reason, the location of the XO’s battle station (determined by the captain) is some distance from the captain’s. This prevents disablement of both officers at the same time.


After a battle, the executive officer makes a detailed report to the commanding officer.Taken from the Navy's website:

As one Executive Officer put it, "The XO is the CO's alter ego and right-hand man."

At no point is it considered a command position. It's always considered staff. Even when taking control of the ship, its temporary until the CO recovers or a new one is assigned.

Good.  You can quote the regs.  What you don't seem to realize that while the XO position is considered a "staff" officer on your jacket, it is also considered a command position when you meet with your promotion board.  If your Captain downchecks your leadership abilities as an XO no matter how much he praises your admin ability, you will never be put into a bona-fide command slot again even if you retire as an admiral.

I do know what I am talking about here.  The XO slot is not like other "staff" slots.  It is the penultimate step for real command especially independant ship command.  You fail as an XO, you don't command a ship.  Ever (baring extreme circumstances).

Agreed. However, can we confidently say that if he's the XO? It's different postion than what he has now so why would he complain in front of the crew?

Irrevelent since he isn't assigned as XO.  However,. unlike Miranda we do have a long and good track record w/r/t Garrus when it comes to practical leadership and running of military operations under often very difficult conditions.  That isn't so with Miranda.

Seriously, I JUST said that you should listen to the two crewmembers Rolston and Patel. Miranda (And they name her specifically) arranged transport for Rolston's wife, daughter, and mother-in-law to get out of the Terminus and to earth. Safely, I might add since the colony they were on was just taken out by the Collectors. That's hard evidence right there.

That doesn't make Miranda a good leader.  We don't know if it was Miranda that did it, or if TIM ordered it or what or even if it happens at all because I have never heard it and no other Miranda defender has mentioned it until now, so color me skeptical at the very least.

Everyone has different methods of establishing order. With that said, she's the XO. That's the ground rules. Was she supposed to be warm and friendly? Offer cookies maybe? It's a warship. It was simple and poignant. Hell, even Shepard's renegade dialogue was way worse. Not to mention the squad members you take with you. "Knock her out and take her aboard". Yeah, I pretty sure if that didn't set her off, Miranda's speech wouldn't. 

I never appointed Miranda as XO.  She self-appoint herself as "second-in-command" which frankly is one of the problems I have with her.  (That's right, not even TIM says she is my second in command).  As for establishing discipline,  it wasn't the right way and it wasn't really Miranda's place.  Now, if Jack mouths off or does something dumb (which is likelier than not), then MAYBE *IF* she is actually the XO.  However, without any prompting whatsoever, Miranda plays dominance games against a person who has every reason to hate her and no compunction against killing her on the spot.  Only Shep's presence saves this from being a disaster.

I am not saying Miranda should be Milk and Cookies, but sometimes she needs to keep her damn mouth shut!

You'll have to provide a link to this "Soviet Naval Political Officers", because I'm of the opinion she meant that the mission will succeed because she'll do whatever it takes to see the mission through. Also, you don't have evidence that the bugs go to her office. It would be more effiecient if the went through EDI instead, really. Besides, even if the bugs went to her, Cerberus is a clandestine agency. This is per the norm. Everything was practically given to Shepard, so is anyone surprised that there were strings attached? This makes her a spy.

Yes you do.  Mordin tells you that the bugs go throuigh Miranda, and EDI says that Cerberus runs it's operations and communicastions through Director Lawson.  So yes, she has almost exactly the same role as a Political Officer on a Soviet Naval Ship.

Also, a Political Officer's role is defined as:

The supervisory political officer responsible for the political education (ideology) and organisation, and loyalty to the government of the military. The commissars' work is confined to non-combat functions.

Which defines MIranda's job on the ship to a tee.

As for the 'alien attitudes' corrupting the crew, I hardly saw the crew maintaining Cerberus Partyline. Some of them were even excited to work with aliens. (The two bridge crewmen, Matthews and Hadley and the cafeteria crewmen, Goldstein and Hawthorne.)

Unless you're saying that Miranda also sucks as a political officer, I really don't think that's her role AT ALL.

No.  I think (and the opening scene in ME2 along with TIM's explicit orders to Miranda back me on this) that Miranda was given a crew of extreme moderates by any Cerberus standards chosen with the explicit purpose of making Shepard feel more comfortable with Cerberus and thus convincing him that Cerberus really isn't as bad as he (or she) knows it is.  Miranda does know better, but most of the crew really don't know much about Cerberus and are almost universally disillusioned ex-Alliance Military types who are more loyal to Shep (especially at  the end) than Miranda.  I do think that they fear Miranda more than they care about her and it's also clear at least to me that in the end Miranda does fail as a political officer (and it is her role) because the ship from EDI on down answers to Shep and not Cerberus in the end. 

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 août 2010 - 08:26 .

[ExtremeOne]

PWENER wrote...

Miri isn't a good leader, that's obvious. She's smart, but no leader. Also, Garrus is too naive to lead anyone outside of combat.

Both would make (not horrible) bad XOs.

  


Miranda is a perfect choice for second in command. Garrus was stupid and got his team killed in ME 1 so that shows just how much he knows how to command 

[Clover Rider]

ExtremeOne wrote...

PWENER wrote...

Miri isn't a good leader, that's obvious. She's smart, but no leader. Also, Garrus is too naive to lead anyone outside of combat.

Both would make (not horrible) bad XOs.

  


Miranda is a perfect choice for second in command. Garrus was stupid and got his team killed in ME 1 so that shows just how much he knows how to command 

He did not get them killed in ME1 .

[Nightwriter]

Oh would you shut up.

Nobody cares you were in the military. Nobody cares. We're all very glad it's instilled in you a sense of smug authority over a fictional videogame. Hooray for you. That must be so fulfilling.

I swear to God the first thousand times you said "Miranda should keep her trap shut" were ENOUGH, even people who hate Miranda have got to be tired of hearing it, at least Miranda hasn't been on here arguing for 20 pages, she'd probably say it was unproductive use of her time and wander off to make system checks or something.

....

....

Look I'm sorry I'm cranky tonight okay I ran over a turtle, yes, a turtle, and it was a baby, a little baby turtle like the one from Finding Nemo, there's still blood in my tires and the kid I'm supposed to be babysitting was with me in the car when we ran it over and her reaction was horrendous and I am now a monster forever cuz I killed Squirt.

[ExtremeOne]

Some Geth wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

PWENER wrote...

Miri isn't a good leader, that's obvious. She's smart, but no leader. Also, Garrus is too naive to lead anyone outside of combat.

Both would make (not horrible) bad XOs.

  


Miranda is a perfect choice for second in command. Garrus was stupid and got his team killed in ME 1 so that shows just how much he knows how to command 

He did not get them killed in ME1 .

  



he basically left them and they got killed that still shows how he is not command ready and plus you and the rest of you anti Cerberus fans  need to understand this Miranda is second in command because it is a Cerberus ship and she is TIM agent on this mission.  One other thing Edi even tells you once her hidden files are unlocked that Miranda is in charge of this mission . so in a way Miranda is the captain of the Normandy and Shepard is commander of the Squad.  

[Clover Rider]

Nightwriter wrote...

Oh would you shut up.

Nobody cares you were in the military. Nobody cares. We're all very glad it's instilled in you a sense of smug authority over a fictional videogame. Hooray for you. That must be so fulfilling.

I swear to God the first thousand times you said "Miranda should keep her trap shut" were ENOUGH, even people who hate Miranda have got to be tired of hearing it, at least Miranda hasn't been on here arguing for 20 pages, she'd probably say it was unproductive use of her time and wander off to make system checks or something.

....

....

Look I'm sorry I'm cranky tonight okay I ran over a turtle, yes, a turtle, and it was a baby, a little baby turtle like the one from Finding Nemo, there's still blood in my tires and the kid I'm supposed to be babysitting was with me in the car when we ran it over and her reaction was horrendous and I am now a monster forever cuz I killed Squirt.

You don't have to say sorry to him but you do have to say sorry to the turtle <_<.

[IanPolaris]

ExtremeOne wrote...

PWENER wrote...

Miri isn't a good leader, that's obvious. She's smart, but no leader. Also, Garrus is too naive to lead anyone outside of combat.

Both would make (not horrible) bad XOs.

  


Miranda is a perfect choice for second in command. Garrus was stupid and got his team killed in ME 1 so that shows just how much he knows how to command 

Then Miranda was stupid and let Wilson destroy her entire project putting Shep's life in Jeapordy (and her mission) needlessly.  If you are going to criticize Garrus for Sidonis, then it's hypocritical not to criticize Miranda for Wilson.

-Polaris

[Nightwriter]

Some Geth wrote...

You don't have to say sorry to him but you do have to say sorry to the turtle <_<.

*cries* It was an accident!! How was I supposed to even see it?!

[Clover Rider]

Nightwriter wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

You don't have to say sorry to him but you do have to say sorry to the turtle <_<.

*cries* It was an accident!! How was I supposed to even see it?!

With eyes :innocent:.