479 réponses à ce sujet

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...

You missed the point.  If you go through Miranda's options and romance her, you find that she is in fact extremely insecure.  She is hard on herself.  She makes a point of trying to assert her authority when it isn't necessary and when unasked, and in the scene I mentioned has to show the ship in the most graphic way possible that Shepard is hers.

She is most definately insecure.  It's a common failure in officer candidates.  I've seen it before.

She says, "I can do it too."  She then goes on to say, "In theory any biotic could"

Not so.  She makes other bad calls as well, but the biotic bubble is the one that sticks out.

-Polaris

I romanced Miranda several times, she never seemed insecure to me. Her genetic modification bugs her, and her father is evil fooker, that bugs her too. But she can get through the problems herself, she is the only one that can lead the second squad without loyalty. And she CAN get you through the biotic bubble part, in the end it is Shepard's responsibility if best member is on the job to ensure no casualties.

tonnactus wrote...


Her stupid behavior regarding a former cerberus victim.The first thing this ****** said: "I am the second in command
and on this ship you have to follow orders."


Compare this with jacobs behavior with tali. Far better:" We had differences/problems in the past,but i hope
we could solve that for future teamwork."

People do not need to like each other to work effectively. Jack has problems with rules of any kind, no wonder Miranda warns her as soon as possible - this is not a cult but (para)military mission.

Modifié par Kronner, 19 août 2010 - 10:33 .

[KainrycKarr]

Shadow_broker wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Honestly, Miranda just doesn't have the people skills for leadership. At least in a combat situation. The crew of the Normandy trusts her, but your ground team with the exception of Jacob is vocally untrusting of Miranda. That doesn't bode well when these are people who are in the trench together. I would place her as co-scientist with Mordin in the lab if anything, as she more than proved herself as competent in a lab setting.

I'd probably choose Garrus, though he's honestly a bit hot-headed to be given too big a leadership role imo. Other choices would be Joker or Jacob. Neither is ideal, but Joker has the advantage of being both highly trusted by just about anyone, extremely competent at his job as well as knowing Shepard well enough to accurately estimate what Shepard would do in a given situation, and Jacob has both combat experience, and a far less frictional personality than Miranda.

Not all leaders have to be your friend, Miranda is by far the most capable among the squad. letting personal feeling get in the way can be very bad as garrus explains, miranda trys to keep this professional and her focus on the job.

She is the only character who can lead the fireteams without loyalty succesfully .
She gets the job despite her feelings towards anyone on the ship, she dosen't care if you sided with jack,hate her, and let the one thing she cares about get taken away from her. she knows the mission is too important

BTW glad to see the miranda hate at a minimum on a thread for once

It isn't about being friends, what I mean by people skills is that she can't get people to trust her very well.

Your squad is vocally opposed to her lead. That just doesn't work well under combat. Ask any real-life soldier if trust is important between a squad and their officer, and you'll get the same answer every time.

Miranda is competent yes, but all the competence in the world won't make them trust her.

[IanPolaris]

Barquiel wrote...

good
I'd like to keep her as my XO in ME3. She is a good leader (the suicide mission is the proof), smart and trustworthy.

IanPolaris wrote...

She says, "I can do it too."  She then goes on to say, "In theory any biotic could"

-Polaris

...and she is right. Shep can continue the mission, no critical mission failure.

No she's not.  I submit that your standards for "success" in this regard are rather low shall we say.  My point is that Miranda volunteers to do something that she isn't fully qualified to do and further makes an assertion about any biotic being able to do it that isn't really so. 

In fact it takes an extremely powerful and disciplined biotic to hold up that shield for that long a time under combat stress while keeping the squad safe from the seeker swarms (which is the point after all).  Only Samara, Morinth, and Jack can do it, and that seemed pretty obvious to me.  Miranda was posturing...and it potentially costs lives.

-Polaris

[KainrycKarr]

Completing the mission with casualties when a better option was available isn't exactly a good model of leadership.

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...

I romanced Miranda several times, she never seemed insecure to me. Her genetic modification bugs her, and her father is evil fooker, that bugs her too. But she can get through the problems herself, she is the only one that can lead the second squad without loyalty. And she CAN get you through the biotic bubble part, in the end it is Shepard's responsibility if best member is on the job to ensure no casualties.

It's more than that.  Combine her lines about her feelings of inadequacy along with her tendency to be pushy when it isn't needed, called for, and even has the potention to make the situation worse.  For example, there is Miranda's assertion that "She is Shepard's second in command and on this ship we follow orders" to Jack who has every reason to hate, loathe,and distrust her.  Not smart...especially for the most powerful human biotic who is also a ruthless killer.

Then there is the assertion that she should take the second squad without waiting for Shepard to say a word.  Needless to say that doesn't go over very well either.

Then there is the biotic bubble scene.

There are many, many others, but I've seen this before in officer candidates. It's classic insecurity and one classic symptom of insecurity especially with people that are otherwise strong willed is to grate on others by asserting themselves frivolously and needlessly (and often insensitively).

tonnactus wrote...


Her stupid behavior regarding a former cerberus victim.The first thing this ****** said: "I am the second in command
and on this ship you have to follow orders."


Compare this with jacobs behavior with tali. Far better:" We had differences/problems in the past,but i hope
we could solve that for future teamwork."

People do not need to like each other to work effectively. Jack has problems with rules of any kind, no wonder Miranda warns her as soon as possible - this is not a cult but (para)military mission.

People DO need to trust each other to work effectively together, however, and given Jack's history with Cerberus, the first thing Miranda needed to do was help estalish that trust.  In this case it means giving a little, but again MIranda is far too insecure to do so.

-Polaris

[Caihn]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Completing the mission with casualties when a better option was available isn't exactly a good model of leadership.

She doesn't say she is the best for this mission. But she can do it, and it's true.
If your Shepard is stupid and can't choose the better option it's him/her who isn't a good leader.

[KainrycKarr]

Yannkee wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Completing the mission with casualties when a better option was available isn't exactly a good model of leadership.

She doesn't say she is the best for this mission. But she can do it, and it's true.
If your Shepard is stupid and can't choose the better option it's him/her who isn't a good leader.

Actually what I meant was that I didn't understand why she was advertising herself when two far better options(in terms of biotic strength) were available. It struck me as trying to get attention/do all the work(which isn't always a bad thing, tho in this case it is). Sorry.

[IanPolaris]

Yannkee wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Completing the mission with casualties when a better option was available isn't exactly a good model of leadership.

She doesn't say she is the best for this mission. But she can do it, and it's true.
If your Shepard is stupid and can't choose the better option it's him/her who isn't a good leader.

Sure the ultimate responsibility is Shepard's.  That's one part of being the overall leader.  However, Miranda is deliberately volunteering herself for a job she is not qualified to do.  She compounds that error by giving advice that if taken costs lives.  That shows not only insecurity (over having Samara take a leading role in something) but poor judgement to boot.  If Miranda thought that Samara was the best for the job (or Morinth) which almost anyone else would say is obvious (that or Jack), she should have kept her trap shut.

-Polaris

[tonnactus]

Kronner wrote...


People do not need to like each other to work effectively. Jack has problems with rules of any kind, no wonder Miranda warns her as soon as possible - this is not a cult but (para)military mission.

I just ask you again: Is it smart that the first thing she said to a victim of horrific cerberus experiments to follow orders.
This is so dumb,i cant find the right words for that.

Just compare that how jacob threats tali.The quarians lost a lot of lives because cerberus attacked them.

Jacob has "people skills", miranda has exactly zero of it.. She is good as a leader only for gameplay,but not regarding her history.

People like her always fail as leaders in real life.

[Barquiel]

IanPolaris wrote...

No she's not.  I submit that your standards for "success" in this regard are rather low shall we say.  My point is that Miranda volunteers to do something that she isn't fully qualified to do and further makes an assertion about any biotic being able to do it that isn't really so. 

In fact it takes an extremely powerful and disciplined biotic to hold up that shield for that long a time under combat stress while keeping the squad safe from the seeker swarms (which is the point after all).  Only Samara, Morinth, and Jack can do it, and that seemed pretty obvious to me.  Miranda was posturing...and it potentially costs lives.

-Polaris

She says every biotic can create the bubble, that's all...and she is right. She never said: "I am the best choice!"
It's her job to suggest alternatives.

[Kolos2]

shame that Normandy is just a quest hub, you dont need much coed to add some management to it


Garrus for me, with him you always know where you are and he proved himself as a leader

Modifié par Kolos2, 19 août 2010 - 10:46 .

[IanPolaris]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Completing the mission with casualties when a better option was available isn't exactly a good model of leadership.

She doesn't say she is the best for this mission. But she can do it, and it's true.
If your Shepard is stupid and can't choose the better option it's him/her who isn't a good leader.

Actually what I meant was that I didn't understand why she was advertising herself when two far better options(in terms of biotic strength) were available. It struck me as trying to get attention/do all the work(which isn't always a bad thing, tho in this case it is). Sorry.

It's a bad thing when you clearly aren't the best qualified and no human biotic (except Jack who is obviously a special case) is going to be equal to an Asari Matriarch and Justicar in biotic strength.  The fact she volunteers herself anyway to get attention is a classic symptom of the insecurity I mention above.

-Polaris

[KainrycKarr]

For the record, and it's not important, but Samara *isn't* a Matriarch. That or the description for her class specialty is inaccurate(it says her powers *rival* that of a Matriarch, indicating she is not actually a Matriarch.)

[IanPolaris]

Barquiel wrote...

She says every biotic can create the bubble, that's all...and she is right. She never said: "I am the best choice!"
It's her job to suggest alternatives.

Again that's not quite what she said, and it's not her job to suggest alternatives.  The only alternative she directly suggests is her (for the biotic bubble).  It's only after that that she concedes that in theory any biotic should be able to do it. 

In short, she is suggesting (yes by implication, but it's a strong implication just by volunteering) that she is better suited to the job than Samara/Morinth which is laughable.  Not only that but she gives bad advice by underrating just how hard the task woujld be (something Samara does not do).

It's pretty obvious that Samara/Morinth or Jack are the only two people with the biotic strength to pull it off.

-Polaris

[Caihn]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Completing the mission with casualties when a better option was available isn't exactly a good model of leadership.

She doesn't say she is the best for this mission. But she can do it, and it's true.
If your Shepard is stupid and can't choose the better option it's him/her who isn't a good leader.

Actually what I meant was that I didn't understand why she was advertising herself when two far better options(in terms of biotic strength) were available. It struck me as trying to get attention/do all the work(which isn't always a bad thing, tho in this case it is). Sorry.

She only warn Shepard of all the possibility. Shepard must choose the best option.
Also I think you never considered that Jack and Samara could be dead when they have to find a biotic to do the mission. <_<

[IanPolaris]

KainrycKarr wrote...

For the record, and it's not important, but Samara *isn't* a Matriarch. That or the description for her class specialty is inaccurate(it says her powers *rival* that of a Matriarch, indicating she is not actually a Matriarch.)

Samara by her own admission is nearly 1000 years old.  That makes her an Asari matriarch and she is identified as such many times.

Morinth of course is not, but she got her strength from 400 years of preying on other sentients getting stronger each time.

-Polaris

[Urazz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Conquest? As far as I know, it is Shepard who must conquer her, if you are not interested in her, she won't jump you (like Tali). If she was insecure, would she bang in the engine room? Sounds like confident to me. You do not even have to help her and she still gets the job done as a leader. Insecure my ass.

You missed the point.  If you go through Miranda's options and romance her, you find that she is in fact extremely insecure.  She is hard on herself.  She makes a point of trying to assert her authority when it isn't necessary and when unasked, and in the scene I mentioned has to show the ship in the most graphic way possible that Shepard is hers.

She is most definately insecure.  It's a common failure in officer candidates.  I've seen it before.

As for biotic bubble, she says she could do it in theory. Any biotic could. If Shepard is not an idiot, (s)he will pick the best biotic available - Samara or Jack.

She says, "I can do it too."  She then goes on to say, "In theory any biotic could"

Not so.  She makes other bad calls as well, but the biotic bubble is the one that sticks out.

-Polaris

She is insecure but not to the point that it cripples her as a leader.  You would think Garrus wouldn't have the confidence to lead again as well after his betrayl and loss of his squad and Jacob is a newb as far as leading a squad goes.  Point is yes, she does have flaws like the other 'leader' type characters but it's not a debilitating flaw like some of you haters like to believe.  Well, actually it probably can be a debilitating flaw if each of the leader characters are unloyal and distracted from their problems in their loyalty mission.

She also wasn't wrong about any biotic being capable of holding they bubble.  If you picked anyone else other than Jack or Samara, they do hold it the entire way through.   They just weren't able to do that shockwave and shove the swarms back after it.  It's basically up to Shepard to decide which biotic to use and unless you are an idiot, you would pick your best one.

And the engine room sex scene, I didn't see that as a lack of confidence on Miranda's part.  Personally, I found the scene to be pretty tastless on Bioware's part making it feel more like a porn scene with Shepard and Miranda having sex in an uncomfortable area.

Personally, I think Miranda is a fairly good XO.  Sure she's not perfect but no commanding officer is and the other leader type characters aren't perfect either.

Modifié par Urazz, 19 août 2010 - 10:53 .

[Icinix]

Urazz wrote...
(SNIP)
Personally, I found the scene to be pretty tastless on Bioware's part making it feel more like a porn scene with Shepard and Miranda having sex in an uncomfortable area.

Joke : If there was an argument against it in there, I failed to see it. 

Serious: It did feel a bit forced. (No pun intended)

[IanPolaris]

Yannkee wrote...

She only warn Shepard of all the possibility. Shepard must choose the best option.
Also I think you never considered that Jack and Samara could be dead when they have to find a biotic to do the mission. <_<

I'm sorry but no she didn't.  When Samara mentions the biotic possibility (or confirms Shepard's speculation), Miranda pipes in, "I can do it to"

She doesn't say, "there are alternatives you should consider"  She doesn't say, "You should choose the strongest biotic".  She immediately volunteers herself implying that she's as good if not better than Samara (which is ridiculous).  It's only after that, she adds the addendum, "In theory any biotic could".  It's a ploy to get Shepard's attention and gain self-importance....and that is a fundamental sign of insecurity.

As for who might be dead, it is extremely difficult to have BOTH Samara and Jack be dead at this point especially if you upgraded the ship.  If both are dead, then yes, looking for alternatives makes sense, but that isn't what happens in the vast majority of the games and you know it.

-Polaris

[KainrycKarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

For the record, and it's not important, but Samara *isn't* a Matriarch. That or the description for her class specialty is inaccurate(it says her powers *rival* that of a Matriarch, indicating she is not actually a Matriarch.)

Samara by her own admission is nearly 1000 years old.  That makes her an Asari matriarch and she is identified as such many times.

Morinth of course is not, but she got her strength from 400 years of preying on other sentients getting stronger each time.

-Polaris

Bolded the rest of the statement.

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...

It's a bad thing when you clearly aren't the best qualified and no human biotic (except Jack who is obviously a special case) is going to be equal to an Asari Matriarch and Justicar in biotic strength.  The fact she volunteers herself anyway to get attention is a classic symptom of the insecurity I mention above.

-Polaris

Everyone can be general after the battle, right? When she says she could do it, we do NOT know how long will it take to get through. She never says she is the best choice. That's like saying Jack should lead the fireteam because she hates Miranda and says so (now you see who is and who is not really dedicated to the mission - that is NOT a good time to bring up personal hatred or any other doubts. This is the time when you need a focused squad.).

Jacob volunteers for the vents, yet he is not close to being best tech guy, and Miranda points that out herself. I guess she does not deserve any credit for that.
I really do not see her as insecure, not even close really. If she is insecure then pretty much everyone else is too. Every single squadmate needs help with personal quest.

Modifié par Kronner, 19 août 2010 - 11:01 .

[KainrycKarr]

Yannkee wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Completing the mission with casualties when a better option was available isn't exactly a good model of leadership.

She doesn't say she is the best for this mission. But she can do it, and it's true.
If your Shepard is stupid and can't choose the better option it's him/her who isn't a good leader.

Actually what I meant was that I didn't understand why she was advertising herself when two far better options(in terms of biotic strength) were available. It struck me as trying to get attention/do all the work(which isn't always a bad thing, tho in this case it is). Sorry.

She only warn Shepard of all the possibility. Shepard must choose the best option.
Also I think you never considered that Jack and Samara could be dead when they have to find a biotic to do the mission. <_<

....So? I understand you're trying to defend your favorite character, but...

[IanPolaris]

Urazz wrote...

She is insecure but not to the point that it cripples her as a leader.  You would think Garrus wouldn't have the confidence to lead again as well after his betrayl and loss of his squad and Jacob is a newb as far as leading a squad goes.  Point is yes, she does have flaws like the other 'leader' type characters but it's not a debilitating flaw like some of you haters like to believe.  Well, actually it probably can be a debilitating flaw if each of the leader characters are unloyal and distracted from their problems in their loyalty mission.

She is insecure to the point where no one wants to follow her into combat other than Jacob.  I'd say that makes it a crippling flaw.  Yes I know that Bioware doesn't agree, but in this case I think Bioware either has it wrong or (IMHO much more likely) Bioware deliberately made Mirada as hard as possible to kill (and her kill priority in various stages seems to bear this out) likely because Bioware wants her to survive to see ME3.

Edit: Calling me a "hater" because I question Miranda in the leadership department does not win you rhetorical points.

She also wasn't wrong about any biotic being capable of holding they bubble.  If you picked anyone else other than Jack or Samara, they do hold it the entire way through.   They just weren't able to do that shockwave and shove the swarms back after it.  It's basically up to Shepard to decide which biotic to use and unless you are an idiot, you would pick your best one.

She was wrong.  Holding the barrier all the way through INCLUDES getting all the squaddies through alive.  She fails at that and worse gives very bad advice (and it's notthe only time).  She volunteers herself implicitly as the best biotic when even she knows that Jack let alone Samara/Morinth are better biotics than she is.

And the engine room sex scene, I didn't see that as a lack of confidence on Miranda's part.  Personally, I found the scene to be pretty tastless on Bioware's part making it feel more like a porn scene with Shepard and Miranda having sex in an uncomfortable area.

I think it's both.  Consider who Miranda's 'competition' is for Shepard.  It's Tali and Jack.  Miranda makes it very clear since there is no privacy in the Engine core that both Tali and Jack get an eyeful.  That is a classic symptom of insecurity. 

Personally, I think Miranda is a fairly good XO.  Sure she's not perfect but no commanding officer is and the other leader type characters aren't perfect either.

As I indicated before, I think that MIranda can eventually be made into an acceptable XO especially given it's a largely Cerberus crew.  Garrus, however, is the much better leader.  Sorry.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 19 août 2010 - 11:03 .