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[Cra5y Pineapple]

I think you should've been able to choose your XO.

Garrus for 2nd in Command=Win. He's the trusty sidekick. See this TV tropes article. Describes his role well.

Modifié par Cra5y Pineapple, 19 août 2010 - 11:05 .

[Halfdan The Menace]

She will quiting Cerberus depending on your action in Mass Effect 2,so yeah either good or bad she has experience as XO...

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...

She was wrong.  Holding the barrier all the way through INCLUDES getting all the squaddies through alive.  She fails at that and worse gives very bad advice (and it's notthe only time).  She volunteers herself implicitly as the best biotic when even she knows that Jack let alone Samara/Morinth are better biotics than she is.

Says who? Unloyal Samara/Jack are useless then? Are they insecure? Not able to put their PERSONAL problems aside? You can't have it both ways.

IanPolaris wrote...I think it's both.  Consider who Miranda's 'competition' is for Shepard.  It's Tali and Jack.  Miranda makes it very clear since there is no privacy in the Engine core that both Tali and Jack get an eyeful.  That is a classic symptom of insecurity. 

As I indicated before, I think that MIranda can eventually be made into an acceptable XO especially given it's a largely Cerberus crew.  Garrus, however, is the much better leader.  Sorry.

-Polaris

Her competition is up to you to decide. I have no interest in talking to Jack/Tali so there is NO competition. Garrus is indeed good leader, but he is turian and your crew is human. See the potential problem there?

Modifié par Kronner, 19 août 2010 - 11:07 .

[KainrycKarr]

Kronner wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

She was wrong.  Holding the barrier all the way through INCLUDES getting all the squaddies through alive.  She fails at that and worse gives very bad advice (and it's notthe only time).  She volunteers herself implicitly as the best biotic when even she knows that Jack let alone Samara/Morinth are better biotics than she is.

Says who? Unloyal Samara/Jack are useless then? Are they insecure? Not able to put their PERSONAL problems aside? You can't have it both ways.

IanPolaris wrote...I think it's both.  Consider who Miranda's 'competition' is for Shepard.  It's Tali and Jack.  Miranda makes it very clear since there is no privacy in the Engine core that both Tali and Jack get an eyeful.  That is a classic symptom of insecurity. 

As I indicated before, I think that MIranda can eventually be made into an acceptable XO especially given it's a largely Cerberus crew.  Garrus, however, is the much better leader.  Sorry.

-Polaris

Her competition is up to you to decide. I have no interest in talking to Jack/Tali so there is NO competition. Garrus is indeed good leader, but he is turian and your crew is human. See the potential problem there?

Your combat squad is half-alien and Miranda is the most Cerberus-loyal member of the Normandy, and isn't exactly the friendly type to boot....

See the real problem there?

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

It's a bad thing when you clearly aren't the best qualified and no human biotic (except Jack who is obviously a special case) is going to be equal to an Asari Matriarch and Justicar in biotic strength.  The fact she volunteers herself anyway to get attention is a classic symptom of the insecurity I mention above.

-Polaris

Everyone can be general after the battle, right? When she says she could do it, we do NOT know how long will it take to get through. She never says she is the best choice. That's like saying Jack should lead the fireteam because she hates Miranda and says so (now you see who is and who is not really dedicated to the mission - that is NOT a good time to bring up personal hatred or any other doubts. This is the time when you need a focused squad.).

1) Jack never says she should lead the fireteam.  What she says to Miranda is, "No one wants to follow you."  If Jack died before this, then Garrus says exactly the same thing.

2) By volunteering and saying, "I can do it too", she IS (implicitly but definately) positing herself as the best choice.  EDI has scans so  everyone knows approximately how long it should take, and no one thinks it should be easy.  No, this is a classic case of Miranda trying to be important.

Jacob volunteers for the vents, yet he is not close to being best tech guy, and Miranda points that out herself. I guess she does not deserve any credit for that.

Not really unless you believe that being "Captain Obvioius" makes you a good leader.  Jacob is volunteering out of enthusiasm and it's not at all difficult to see that.  Again, the three best choices are almost painfully obvious here.

I really do not see her as insecure, not even close really. If she is insecure then pretty much everyone else is too. Every single squadmate needs help with personal quest.

Sorry but no.  Miranda has the classic signs of deep seated insecurities that (should) inhibit her as a leader.

-Polaris

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...

1) Jack never says she should lead the fireteam.  What she says to Miranda is, "No one wants to follow you."  If Jack died before this, then Garrus says exactly the same thing.

2) By volunteering and saying, "I can do it too", she IS (implicitly but definately) positing herself as the best choice.  EDI has scans so  everyone knows approximately how long it should take, and no one thinks it should be easy.  No, this is a classic case of Miranda trying to be important.

Not really unless you believe that being "Captain Obvioius" makes you a good leader.  Jacob is volunteering out of enthusiasm and it's not at all difficult to see that.  Again, the three best choices are almost painfully obvious here.

Sorry but no.  Miranda has the classic signs of deep seated insecurities that (should) inhibit her as a leader.

-Polaris

I think you are reading way too much into the "I can do it too" line. Jacob is volunteering out of enthusiasm, but Miranda is volunteering out of insecurity? Please. Like I said I never even thought it was possible to see her as insecure until I read this thread.

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

She was wrong.  Holding the barrier all the way through INCLUDES getting all the squaddies through alive.  She fails at that and worse gives very bad advice (and it's notthe only time).  She volunteers herself implicitly as the best biotic when even she knows that Jack let alone Samara/Morinth are better biotics than she is.

Says who? Unloyal Samara/Jack are useless then? Are they insecure? Not able to put their PERSONAL problems aside? You can't have it both ways.

As a matter of fact YES.  An unloyal anybody is useless (except Miranda in as second fireteam leader, and again I smell Bioware plot device on that one).  In fact the game makes it almost painfully clear that non-loyal squadmembers are useless or nearly so during the suicide mission.

IanPolaris wrote...I think it's both.  Consider who Miranda's 'competition' is for Shepard.  It's Tali and Jack.  Miranda makes it very clear since there is no privacy in the Engine core that both Tali and Jack get an eyeful.  That is a classic symptom of insecurity. 

As I indicated before, I think that MIranda can eventually be made into an acceptable XO especially given it's a largely Cerberus crew.  Garrus, however, is the much better leader.  Sorry.

-Polaris

Her competition is up to you to decide. I have no interest in talking to Jack/Tali so there is NO competition. Garrus is indeed good leader, but he is turian and your crew is human. See the potential problem there?

As a matter of fact, if you read my original post on this thread, I account for that and say that is why she should be considered as XO for the ship.  However, the mission squad is largely non-human.

As for insecurity, you are missing the point.  It's not what you (shepard) feels, it's what she things you feel, and she isn't secure enough in your (shepard's feelings) for her to be able to express it privately.  She has to advertise.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...

I think you are reading way too much into the "I can do it too" line. Jacob is volunteering out of enthusiasm, but Miranda is volunteering out of insecurity? Please. Like I said I never even thought it was possible to see her as insecure until I read this thread.

Yes I say this based on the dialog.  When the vent option comes up, Jacob eagerly stands up and says, "It's practically a suicide mission.  I volunteer."

He's not claiming he's the best tech expert.  He's volunteering because it's the most dangerous job....and that is classic combat enthusiasm.

With Miranda it's different.  Shepard and Co are presented with a problem.  How do you bypass the security doors through overwhelming swarms of seekers without losing people.  Samara, the strongest biotic in the group suggests that a biotic barrier might work (or confirms Shepard's speculation of the same).  To this point there is no question that Samara/Morinth and Jack are hands down the strongest biotics you have.

Even so Miranda pipes up, "I can do it too".  That isn't combat enthisiasm.  That's trying to get attention.

-Polaris

P.S.  Again, Samara is an Asari matriarch.  Her class description is wrong.

[tonnactus]

ModestmeNTaLmogul wrote...

She will quiting Cerberus depending on your action in Mass Effect 2,

Wrong.She quitted cerberus even if she isnt loyal.And that makes her mission the most pointless one of all squadmates.
And its a very interesting behavior for a so called loyalist...

[Caihn]

IanPolaris wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

She only warn Shepard of all the possibility. Shepard must choose the best option.
Also I think you never considered that Jack and Samara could be dead when they have to find a biotic to do the mission. <_<

I'm sorry but no she didn't.  When Samara mentions the biotic possibility (or confirms Shepard's speculation), Miranda pipes in, "I can do it to"

Yes she can do it.

She doesn't say, "there are alternatives you should consider"  She doesn't say, "You should choose the strongest biotic".  She immediately volunteers herself implying that she's as good if not better than Samara (which is ridiculous).
  It's only after that, she adds the addendum, "In theory any biotic could".  It's a ploy to get Shepard's attention and gain self-importance....and that is a fundamental sign of insecurity.

Ridiculous, someone who volunteers herself DOESN'T imply that she thinks she's the best.

It's not her who has to choose, but the commander. Samara can do it, Jack can do it, Miranda can do it ... if your Shepard isn't stupid, he knows who is the best option to avoid casualties. 
I don't know about you but to me it's Shepard who is in charge.

As for who might be dead, it is extremely difficult to have BOTH Samara and Jack be dead at this point especially if you upgraded the ship.  If both are dead, then yes, looking for alternatives makes sense, but that isn't what happens in the vast majority of the games and you know it.

Difficult maybe, not impossible.
And if Samara and Jack are not loyal ? They are still the best options ? <_< (and don't say it's difficult to have them both no loyal)

Modifié par Yannkee, 19 août 2010 - 11:46 .

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...

As a matter of fact YES.  An unloyal anybody is useless (except Miranda in as second fireteam leader, and again I smell Bioware plot device on that one).  In fact the game makes it almost painfully clear that non-loyal squadmembers are useless or nearly so during the suicide mission.

As a matter of fact, if you read my original post on this thread, I account for that and say that is why she should be considered as XO for the ship.  However, the mission squad is largely non-human.

That does not change the fact that unloyal Samara/Jack get the very same result as Miranda. This proves that everyone surviving is BONUS. Not default outcome. Miranda will get you through and you can finish the mission.
Just imagine Navy SEALs leader, who says he can get the team there (somewhere) but on the way one SEAL dies, but the mission is still accomplished. This is the same case.

IanPolaris wrote...As for insecurity, you are missing the point.  It's not what you (shepard) feels, it's what she things you feel, and she isn't secure enough in your (shepard's feelings) for her to be able to express it privately.  She has to advertise.

-Polaris

I have no idea what you mean by this. Could you elaborate? You think she says she can hold the barrier to get attention? OMG she knows better, she states it throughout the game that mission is too important. In fact she is the only one capable of doing her job (ok at least one half - still better than the rest) even if she is unloyal. Other squadmates are not able to do their jobs unless they are loyal. So your argument that she does that to get attention is laughable at best.

Modifié par Kronner, 19 août 2010 - 11:37 .

[Ieldra]

A few points:

The biotic bubble:
Miranda makes a mistake. She - and other biotics - can hold the bubble, that something like the shockwave would be necessary could not be foreseen. She makes the mistake not when asserting that she could do it, but when not pointing out that - and she should know this as the Normandy's XO - Samara would be the better choice (you'd not expect her to choose Jack, would you).
The thing is, everyone makes mistakes, but we can't compare her mistakes to anyone else's because no one else is allowed to make suggestions in the Collector base mission. So I think it's somewhat unfair to hold this against her as heavily as some people do. It only shows she's not perfect. The other squadmates seem to be because they don't get a chance to make mistakes.

The engine room scene.
I'm getting really, really tired of this. The place where Miranda and Shepard meet cannot be seen from anywhere outside the room. And in the room, there is no one present. I'm of two minds about the scene itself, it has some aspects I don't like so much, but that exhibitionism claim is pure, unadulterated bullsh*t.

Her self-esteem issues:
Yes, she has them. No doubt about it. But she doesn't let it affect her efficiency as an XO. That her bad advice at the base stems from insecurity is pure speculation.

Miranda as a leader:
That no one wants to follow her into combat is wrong. That's just what Jack says, and you wouldn't expect anything else from her, would you? As for whether Garrus would be the better choice - he has his own issues, and there's no way to tell how they would affect his efficiency. Garrus is possibly a better leader for a combat team -  not by much, since both can lead the Fire team - but as the Normandy's XO, I doubt he would be.

@all:
You might want to read the Miranda Lawson FAQ before you post. Of course it's biased in favor of her, but it does offer explanations for some questions.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 août 2010 - 12:52 .

[Breakdown Boy]

tonnactus wrote...

s0meguy6665 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Miranda is a terrible XO. For somebody who is supposedly perfect she seems to make a lot of bad choices and decisions.

such as?

Her stupid behavior regarding a former cerberus victim.The first thing this ****** said: "I am the second in command
and on this ship you have to follow orders."


Compare this with jacobs behavior with tali. Far better:" We had differences/problems in the past,but i hope
we could solve that for future teamwork."

Like some other poster wrote: Miranda has zero people skills. Its idiotic that the game designers let her be a good leader when she clearly didnt have any competence to lead people. She even got betrayed by her best friend because she somehow thought it wasnt necessary to told him what she done and that she work for cerberus.

Niket didnt betray her only for money,more because she dissapointed him and loose his trust.

Sure then what did Jacob say after that? "Introduce yourself to EDI, our new AI..." Whas that subtle?

Personally I think Miranda's leadership is best suited in the battlefield and not in social interaction.

[tonnactus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Miranda as a leader:
That no one wants to follow her into combat is wrong. That's just what Jack says,

That is wrong.If jack isnt alive,garrus said: "No one of us wants you to lead the team.Half of us dont even trust you."

[tonnactus]

Breakdown Boy wrote...

Sure then what did Jacob say after that? "Introduce yourself to EDI, our new AI..." Whas that subtle?

And why? Because tali was still hostile to him(and right so,but still). And just show how he could told her that in a better ,subtle way.

[Ieldra]

tonnactus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Miranda as a leader:
That no one wants to follow her into combat is wrong. That's just what Jack says,

That is wrong.If jack isnt alive,garrus said: "No one of us wants you to lead the team.Half of us dont even trust you."

They don't trust Cerberus, and Miranda is Cerberus' representative on the Normandy. That's what it means. Well, I can only say, in that case they shouldn't have signed up. While it may mean that Miranda may not seem to be the best choice as a leader at that moment, it says nothing about her leadership abilities. These she proves, for instance, by leading the Fire Team.

[tonnactus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

They don't trust Cerberus, and Miranda is Cerberus' representative on the Normandy.

That is wrong.Otherwise they would have the same problems with jacob,that isnt the case.And not even jack has problems with jacob if you ask her about him.

That's what it means. Well, I can only say, in that case they shouldn't have signed up

Most of them signed up to work for shepardt only and thats exactly what they did.
Otherwise there would be no need to revive shepardt if miranda could recruit these people too.

While it may mean that Miranda may not seem to be the best choice as a leader at that moment, i

She isnt a good leader at any moment regarding her "people skills". She was it only for gameplay reasons,not her personal history and story.The game desginers wanted her to be alive for the next game,thats all...

Modifié par tonnactus, 19 août 2010 - 12:36 .

[IanPolaris]

Yannkee wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

She only warn Shepard of all the possibility. Shepard must choose the best option.
Also I think you never considered that Jack and Samara could be dead when they have to find a biotic to do the mission. <_<

I'm sorry but no she didn't.  When Samara mentions the biotic possibility (or confirms Shepard's speculation), Miranda pipes in, "I can do it to"

Yes she can do it.

No she can't.  If you take her advice people die. Her advice about any biotic is wrong too.

She doesn't say, "there are alternatives you should consider"  She doesn't say, "You should choose the strongest biotic".  She immediately volunteers herself implying that she's as good if not better than Samara (which is ridiculous).
  It's only after that, she adds the addendum, "In theory any biotic could".  It's a ploy to get Shepard's attention and gain self-importance....and that is a fundamental sign of insecurity.

Ridiculous, someone who volunteers herself DOESN'T imply that she thinks she's the best.

It's not her who has to choose, but the commander. Samara can do it, Jack can do it, Miranda can do it ... if your Shepard isn't stupid, he knows who is the best option to avoid casualties. 
I don't know about you but to me it's Shepard who is in charge.

Wrong.  If you VOLUNTEER to do a job, it's because you think you are the best person for that job for whatever reason.  MIranda is badly wrong and she puts herself in a bad situation because of her own insecurities....a sign of a poor leader.

As for who might be dead, it is extremely difficult to have BOTH Samara and Jack be dead at this point especially if you upgraded the ship.  If both are dead, then yes, looking for alternatives makes sense, but that isn't what happens in the vast majority of the games and you know it.

Difficult maybe, not impossible.
And if Samara and Jack are not loyal ? They are still the best options ? <_< (and don't say it's difficult to have them both no loyal)

The game makes it CLEAR that no unloyal person is the best option.  That goes without question.  The only exception is Miranda for what clearly seems to be plot related reasons.

-Polaris

[jlb524]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

So do you guys trust Miranda as your XO going forward for ME3? Do you think she will be a good second commander or do you think she'll stab you in the back? Also given the choice would you have picked her for your XO in 2 if not why not? If you were given the choice who would've appointed the position in 2? 

Yeah, I think Miranda is a good XO....I wouldn't have trusted/picked another from the ME2 team.

Destroy Raiden wrote...

If I could've chosen I would've picked Garrus his persona seemed similar to Presley's in that he could be a friend but hash if need be.  

Garrus?  Ah...no.  I don't think he's XO material.  Plus, I doubt the Cerberus crew would have had much respect for him.

[tonnactus]

jlb524 wrote...

Garrus?  Ah...no.  I don't think he's XO material.  Plus, I doubt the Cerberus crew would have had much respect for him.

Who cares.The ship worked without the crew just fine...
The fighting members are far more important then some cooks and mechanics.

Modifié par tonnactus, 19 août 2010 - 12:48 .

[IanPolaris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

A few points:

The biotic bubble:
Miranda makes a mistake. She - and other biotics - can hold the bubble, that something like the shockwave would be necessary could not be foreseen. She makes the mistake not when asserting that she could do it, but when not pointing out that - and she should know this as the Normandy's XO - Samara would be the better choice (you'd not expect her to choose Jack, would you).
The thing is, everyone makes mistakes, but we can't compare her mistakes to anyone else's because no one else is allowed to make suggestions in the Collector base mission. So I think it's somewhat unfair to hold this against her as heavily as some people do. It only shows she's not perfect. The other squadmates seem to be because they don't get a chance to make mistakes.

The point is that this is clearly an unforced error on Miranda's part becasue the person best suited for the job (as Miranda knows perfectly well) is already volunteering to do it.  Given this, why would Miranda feel a need to pipe up?  Ego and her insecurities....a classic sign of a bad leader.  It's not that Miranda makes a mistake, but she makes a NEEDLESS mistake and does so for all the wrong reasons.

As such, it's perfectly fair to hold this against her.

The engine room scene.
I'm getting really, really tired of this. The place where Miranda and Shepard meet cannot be seen from anywhere outside the room. And in the room, there is no one present. I'm of two minds about the scene itself, it has some aspects I don't like so much, but that exhibitionism claim is pure, unadulterated bullsh*t.

Wrong.  Take some time and look around the engine core room.  It is easily visible from Thane's room, Tali gets an eyeful as well from her station (she's in the SAME ROOM!), and parts of the crew deck leading up to Garrus' gun.  In fact it's about the most public place possible in the ship outside of doing the dirty on the galactic map itself in the CIC!

Her self-esteem issues:
Yes, she has them. No doubt about it. She sees But she doesn't let it affect her efficiency as an XO. That her bad advice at the base stems from insecurity is pure speculation.

Yes she does and several times.  You see it during her loyalty mission (although that is understandable to some degree).  You see it in spades with her dealings with Shepard early on (and in one playthrough, my renegade shep had to slap her down....hard), with Jack ("I am Shepard's Second in Command....." ...really....with a powerful and criminally inclined biotic with every reason to hate and resent her?), and several times during the suicide mission especially the biotic bubble scene as I explained above.

Her self-esteem issues most definately handicap her in any sort of leaderhip capacity.  She is given a pass by bioware for what I gather are plot related reasons.

Miranda as a leader:
That no one wants to follow her into combat is wrong. That's just what Jack says, and you wouldn't expect anything else from her, would you? As for whether Garrus would be the better choice - he has his own issues, and there's no way to tell how they would affect his efficiency. Garrus is possibly a better leader for a combat team -  not by much, since both can lead the Fire team - but as the Normandy's XO, I doubt he would be.

Garrus says almost the same damn thing.  Miranda is not liked.  More importantly, she is not trusted.

@all:
You might want to read the Miranda Lawson FAQ before you post. Of course it's biased in favor of her, but it does offer explanations for some questions.

This is pro-Miranda propaganda.

-Polaris

[Caihn]

IanPolaris wrote...
No she can't.  If you take her advice people die. Her advice about any biotic is wrong too.

Yes she can, she succeed. Like Samara and Jack if they are not loyal.

Wrong.  If you VOLUNTEER to do a job, it's because you think you are the best person for that job for whatever reason.  MIranda is badly wrong and she puts herself in a bad situation because of her own insecurities....a sign of a poor leader.

Wrong, if she volunteer it's because she thinks she can do it, which is actually true.
The bad leader is a Shepard who would choose her instead of a loyal Samara and Jack.

The game makes it CLEAR that no unloyal person is the best option.  That goes without question.  The only exception is Miranda for what clearly seems to be plot related reasons.

She's the only exception because she can do her job even she's not loyal. A sign of true professionalism.

Modifié par Yannkee, 19 août 2010 - 12:54 .