479 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Miranda as a leader:
That no one wants to follow her into combat is wrong. That's just what Jack says,

That is wrong.If jack isnt alive,garrus said: "No one of us wants you to lead the team.Half of us dont even trust you."

They don't trust Cerberus, and Miranda is Cerberus' representative on the Normandy. That's what it means. Well, I can only say, in that case they shouldn't have signed up. While it may mean that Miranda may not seem to be the best choice as a leader at that moment, it says nothing about her leadership abilities. These she proves, for instance, by leading the Fire Team.

This has already been said, but IMHO needs to be repeated.  Other than Zaeed, Kasumi, and Jacob (of course) none of the other squad members signed up with Cerberus.  They signed up becuase they are loyal to Shepard. In fact both Garrus and Tali (especially Tali) make it extremely plain that if Shepard wanted them to blow up Ceberus tomorrow, they would cheerfully pass him the grenades (and even get a few choice head shots as well in Garrus' case).  The others aren't quite so extreme but with the possible exception of Mordin who is ethically grey anyway, few like or trust Cerberus.  Perhaps ironically of these, Samara with her persepctive born of her extreme age is the most forgiving.

Miranda can lead the fire-team because (see the kill order in the suicide mission guide) BW wants her to survive.  Simple as that.  Prior to that, we are given no good reason to think she's a good leader (and lots of reasons to think she isn't).

-Polaris 

[Caihn]

mashavasilec wrote...

Still, she's the best XO material in the game yet. Kaidan would be next, i think. Not really sure who else would be good in this position, just definitely not Garrus

I agree Kaidan is the best alternative to Miranda as XO.

[IanPolaris]

mashavasilec wrote...

I'd pick Miranda as my XO, but she needs to learn some better HR skills first. During confrontation with Jack she clearly showed how her leadership ability could use some work

Still, she's the best XO material in the game yet. Kaidan would be next, i think. Not really sure who else would be good in this position, just definitely not Garrus

Gotta disagree with you on Garrus.  Garrus has proven he has the leadership mettle and experience to do the job.  The only question would be how a largely Cerberus crew would handle him (but if they are anything like the two engineers, that likely isn't too much of a problem).

Garrus has proven himself to be a capable leader of men in combat and outside of combat under trying conditions for long periods of time.  Quite frankly no one else (other than shepard) has close to Garrus' qualifications.

-Polaris

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...


The engine room scene.
I'm getting really, really tired of this. The place where Miranda and Shepard meet cannot be seen from anywhere outside the room. And in the room, there is no one present. I'm of two minds about the scene itself, it has some aspects I don't like so much, but that exhibitionism claim is pure, unadulterated bullsh*t.

I agree. This stupid argument shouldn't even been discussed here.

[Shadow_broker]

tonnactus wrote...

ModestmeNTaLmogul wrote...

She will quiting Cerberus depending on your action in Mass Effect 2,

Wrong.She quitted cerberus even if she isnt loyal.And that makes her mission the most pointless one of all squadmates.
And its a very interesting behavior for a so called loyalist...

She quits because she sees what the damage the reaper is doing and believes shepard is making the right choice, She has a sense of morality whether you want t believe it or not tonn

[jlb524]

mashavasilec wrote...

I'd pick Miranda as my XO, but she needs to learn some better HR skills first. During confrontation with Jack she clearly showed how her leadership ability could use some work

Still, she's the best XO material in the game yet. Kaidan would be next, i think. Not really sure who else would be good in this position, just definitely not Garrus

I agree with this.  I was disappointed with how Miranda handled the Jack situation, but no one is perfect.  She needs some work in that area.

Kaidan would be the next obvious choice.

Garrus?  I don't see why everyone thinks he would be great XO material.  If you want to talk about failures (since most here want to bring up the Miranda biotic bubble thing) Garrus did get his whole team killed....then went on a vengeance spree.  His head isn't cool enough to lead in a military setting.  He makes a good merc leader, but not a good XO of a war ship.

[tonnactus]

Shadow_broker wrote...



She quits because she sees what the damage the reaper is doing and believes shepard is making the right choice, She has a sense of morality whether you want t believe it or not tonn

I rather believe the developers wanted to avoid a virmire like confrontation.Thats all.

Modifié par tonnactus, 19 août 2010 - 01:10 .

[Shadow_broker]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Kronner wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

She was wrong.  Holding the barrier all the way through INCLUDES getting all the squaddies through alive.  She fails at that and worse gives very bad advice (and it's notthe only time).  She volunteers herself implicitly as the best biotic when even she knows that Jack let alone Samara/Morinth are better biotics than she is.

Says who? Unloyal Samara/Jack are useless then? Are they insecure? Not able to put their PERSONAL problems aside? You can't have it both ways.

IanPolaris wrote...I think it's both.  Consider who Miranda's 'competition' is for Shepard.  It's Tali and Jack.  Miranda makes it very clear since there is no privacy in the Engine core that both Tali and Jack get an eyeful.  That is a classic symptom of insecurity. 

As I indicated before, I think that MIranda can eventually be made into an acceptable XO especially given it's a largely Cerberus crew.  Garrus, however, is the much better leader.  Sorry.

-Polaris

Her competition is up to you to decide. I have no interest in talking to Jack/Tali so there is NO competition. Garrus is indeed good leader, but he is turian and your crew is human. See the potential problem there?

Your combat squad is half-alien and Miranda is the most Cerberus-loyal member of the Normandy, and isn't exactly the friendly type to boot....

See the real problem there?

Most of the squad don't care about cerebrus such as
Grunt
mordin
Dlc characters
Thane
Garrus
Legion

Only ones who i think would actually have a problem with miranda are
Jack but she has a prblem with everyone
Tali 
and maybe samara

[IanPolaris]

Yannkee wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
No she can't.  If you take her advice people die. Her advice about any biotic is wrong too.

Yes she can, she succeed. Like Samara and Jack if they are not loyal.

No she can't.  People die.  The ONLY people that can do it are Samara and Jack and only if loyal.

Please don't make stuff up.  If people die when she uses the bubble, then she does NOT suceed.

Wrong.  If you VOLUNTEER to do a job, it's because you think you are the best person for that job for whatever reason.  MIranda is badly wrong and she puts herself in a bad situation because of her own insecurities....a sign of a poor leader.

Wrong, if she volunteer it's because she thinks she can do it, which is actually true.
The bad leader is a Shepard who would choose her instead of a loyal Samara and Jack.

Wrong again.  You volunteer if you think you are the best person for the job and/or you think you can do the job better than the alternatives presented.  Miranda fails on both counts.  The person who is CLEARLY best for the job is volunteering.  At this point you keep your damn trap shut.  It's not only an error but an unforced error caused by her ego and insecurities.  Her conversation makes that abundantly clear.

The game makes it CLEAR that no unloyal person is the best option.  That goes without question.  The only exception is Miranda for what clearly seems to be plot related reasons.

She's the only exception because she can do her job even she's not loyal. A sign of true professionalism.

You are saying that Miranda is a better fire team leader than Garrus?

BWAHAHAHA!  A desk jocky is better than a decorated Turian officer with years of combat leadership experience who lead a large squad succesfully under some of the worse circumstances possible.

You are saying that because Miranda's fecal matter doesn't stink she is quite conspiciously the ONLY squad member that can suceed at an assigned task when not loyal (something the game itself says should not be done repeatedly?)

No.  It is far more likely and easier to believe that Bioware has given Miranda plot armor.

-Polaris

[Shadow_broker]

tonnactus wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...



She quits because she sees what the damage the reaper is doing and believes shepard is making the right choice, She has a sense of morality whether you want t believe it or not tonn

I rather believe the developers wanted to avoid a virmire like confrontation.Thats all.

Wow your cool with your quote changing

Guess you need to find something to do now without the migrant fleet eh?
 

[IanPolaris]

mashavasilec wrote...
I see Garrus as a good choice for fire team leader. But not XO in large sense of a word. Remember his problems with 'laws, regulations and beauroctrats'? That's exactly the kind of thing your normal XO is dealing with, and he'll really be pissed about it all.

I'd gladly send him to lead an assault, but wouldn't in my life rely on him to carry on negotiations with a potential ally

That depends on how the responsibility is divvied out.  Garrus would certainly need a Yeoman, but frankly any command grade officer should have a Yeoman just to get the paperwork done.   This also depends on what you want to call 'operations officer" and XO.

The problem I have with Miranda as XO is an XO in case of emergency needs to be able to lead without question.  Garrus has it.  Miranda doesn't (no matter what Bioware claims).

As for Garrus getting his team killed, his team died when he wasn't there.  Why wasn't he there?  He was betrayed.  Even the best leaders are not immune from betrayal.  Even after that, Garrus does not go off and lose his cool.  He does want revenge (who wouldn't) but can be talked down from it.

I am not saying that Garrus is the perfect leader, but he is easily the best leader short of Shepard himself (or herself).

-Polaris

[Ieldra]

IanPolaris wrote...
This is pro-Miranda propaganda.
-Polaris

Well, since you and others are quite determined to interpret her every action in the worst possible light, I count it only fair to provide a counterbalance. 

IanPolaris wrote...
Miranda can lead the fire-team because
(see the kill order in the suicide mission guide) BW wants her to
survive.  Simple as that.  Prior to that, we are given no good reason to
think she's a good leader (and lots of reasons to think she
isn't).

Her backstory suggests she can't be all that bad at dealing with people. Look at the events in ME:Galaxy, where she acted as a handler for Jacob. People skills are the main qualification for something like that. Also, she did lead a Cerberus cell, which - in spite of Wilson - was a success. She does have a problem with inspiring trust, yes. That's why she's not in Shepard's place, and that's why I admitted that Garrus may be a better leader for a military team. But she's definitely an excellent coordinator, which is what you need for the XO position.

[Shadow_broker]

tonnactus wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Miranda as a leader:
That no one wants to follow her into combat is wrong. That's just what Jack says,

That is wrong.If jack isnt alive,garrus said: "No one of us wants you to lead the team.Half of us dont even trust you."

It's a squad of mercenaries and pyshcos hard to trust any of em....Not everyone has history with garrus and considering he lost his whole squad due to letting personal feeling getting in the way i think mirada hass a very valid arguement

[s0meguy6665]

tonnactus wrote...

s0meguy6665 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Miranda is a terrible XO. For somebody who is supposedly perfect she seems to make a lot of bad choices and decisions.

such as?

Her stupid behavior regarding a former cerberus victim.The first thing this ****** said: "I am the second in command
and on this ship you have to follow orders."


Compare this with jacobs behavior with tali. Far better:" We had differences/problems in the past,but i hope
we could solve that for future teamwork."

Like some other poster wrote: Miranda has zero people skills. Its idiotic that the game designers let her be a good leader when she clearly didnt have any competence to lead people. She even got betrayed by her best friend because she somehow thought it wasnt necessary to told him what she done and that she work for cerberus.

Niket didnt betray her only for money,more because she dissapointed him and loose his trust.

oh, you're talking about jack. really think that jack is susceptible to a nice, soft approach like what you said jacob did? i doubt it.

[IanPolaris]

Actually most of the Characters DO care about Cerberus. Garrus quite pointedly reminds you of the sick experiment that Cerberus did and says you shouldn't trust them. Tali of course is obvious. Kasumi and Zaeed are both human mercs who are paid by Cerberus (so that's obvious and I mentioned it). That leaves Mordin, Samara, Thane, and Jack.



Mordin makes it clear that he's had run-ins with Cerberus before. While Mordin is willing to work with almost anyone, he makes it clear that he knows full well that he is aware of Cerberus' reputation. Samara when the issue comes up reiterates very forcibly that she is sworn to YOU (Shepard) and not Cerberus. Jack is obvious. As for Thane go back to his confrontation with Jacob. Again Thane makes it very clear that his arm is Shepard's NOT Cerberus' and he also makes it plain that he doesn't like or trust the illusive man.



Forgot one....Grunt. Grunt says very little (honestly there is very little to Grunt's persona at all but that's another topic). Given he as the knowledge of the Warlord, Okeer, however, I doubt that Grunt is all that entranced with Cerberus either (being Krogan).



-Polaris

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...

mashavasilec wrote...

Still, she's the best XO material in the game yet. Kaidan would be next, i think. Not really sure who else would be good in this position, just definitely not Garrus

I agree Kaidan is the best alternative to Miranda as XO.

I agree with this. Garrus takes things too personally and is too impulsive. Kaidan is the better choice. I also think Miranda and Kaidan would get along well.

[Shadow_broker]

IanPolaris wrote...

mashavasilec wrote...
I see Garrus as a good choice for fire team leader. But not XO in large sense of a word. Remember his problems with 'laws, regulations and beauroctrats'? That's exactly the kind of thing your normal XO is dealing with, and he'll really be pissed about it all.

I'd gladly send him to lead an assault, but wouldn't in my life rely on him to carry on negotiations with a potential ally

That depends on how the responsibility is divvied out.  Garrus would certainly need a Yeoman, but frankly any command grade officer should have a Yeoman just to get the paperwork done.   This also depends on what you want to call 'operations officer" and XO.

The problem I have with Miranda as XO is an XO in case of emergency needs to be able to lead without question.  Garrus has it.  Miranda doesn't (no matter what Bioware claims).

As for Garrus getting his team killed, his team died when he wasn't there.  Why wasn't he there?  He was betrayed.  Even the best leaders are not immune from betrayal.  Even after that, Garrus does not go off and lose his cool.  He does want revenge (who wouldn't) but can be talked down from it.

I am not saying that Garrus is the perfect leader, but he is easily the best leader short of Shepard himself (or herself).

-Polaris

Biowar claims? it's their story

What they write is fact even if it was just for plot armor she is from what we've seen the most capable leader

This thread is discussing her as a future XO not her suicide mission leadership role, Garrus is not fit to manage a ship the way miranda does

[Caihn]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]Yannkee wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
No she can't.  If you take her advice people die. Her advice about any biotic is wrong too.
[/quote]

Yes she can, she succeed. Like Samara and Jack if they are not loyal.
[/quote]

No she can't.  People die.  The ONLY people that can do it are Samara and Jack and only if loyal.

Please don't make stuff up.  If people die when she uses the bubble, then she does NOT suceed.
[/quote]

The goal of the mission is NOT to make survive everyone.
So yes, she can do it and she succeed the mission.

[quote]
[quote]
[quote]
Wrong.  If you VOLUNTEER to do a job, it's because you think you are the best person for that job for whatever reason.  MIranda is badly wrong and she puts herself in a bad situation because of her own insecurities....a sign of a poor leader.
[/quote]

Wrong, if she volunteer it's because she thinks she can do it, which is actually true.
The bad leader is a Shepard who would choose her instead of a loyal Samara and Jack.
[/quote]

Wrong again.  You volunteer if you think you are the best person for the job and/or you think you can do the job better than the alternatives presented.  Miranda fails on both counts.  The person who is CLEARLY best for the job is volunteering.  At this point you keep your damn trap shut.  It's not only an error but an unforced error caused by her ego and insecurities.  Her conversation makes that abundantly clear.
[/quote]

Wrong, she is can do it and that's why she volunteer.
The casualties are the results of Shepard's choice ONLY.
[quote]
[quote]
[quote]
The game makes it CLEAR that no unloyal person is the best option.  That goes without question.  The only exception is Miranda for what clearly seems to be plot related reasons.
[/quote]

She's the only exception because she can do her job even she's not loyal. A sign of true professionalism.
[/quote]

You are saying that Miranda is a better fire team leader than Garrus?

[/quote]
She is a good team leader like Garrus, but she's more professional.

[quote]

BWAHAHAHA!  A desk jocky is better than a decorated Turian officer with years of combat leadership experience who lead a large squad succesfully under some of the worse circumstances possible.

[/quote]
Miranda is one of the best Cerberus operative. She's most capable. She didn't lose her whole squad during a mission.
[quote]

You are saying that because Miranda's fecal matter doesn't stink she is quite conspiciously the ONLY squad member that can suceed at an assigned task when not loyal (something the game itself says should not be done repeatedly?)

No.  It is far more likely and easier to believe that Bioware has given Miranda plot armor.

[/quote]

This is a ridiculous excuse because you don't like the character, and you don't want to admit that she's a good leader.

[Barquiel]

Garrus doesn't know what he wants.

"I think you should kill/spare Saleon, Garrus"
You're probably right Shepard

"I think you should kill/spare Sidonis, Garrus"
You're probably right Shepard

But Miranda is a bad leader because she is insecure?

[IanPolaris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Her backstory suggests she can't be all that bad at dealing with people. Look at the events in ME:Galaxy, where she acted as a handler for Jacob. People skills are the main qualification for something like that. Also, she did lead a Cerberus cell, which - in spite of Wilson - was a success. She does have a problem with inspiring trust, yes. That's why she's not in Shepard's place, and that's why I admitted that Garrus may be a better leader for a military team. But she's definitely an excellent coordinator, which is what you need for the XO position.

Her background suggests that Miranda is a stellar administrator, not a leader.  I agree that she is a stellar organizer which is why she would be (as I've said before) a perfect S2 or Operations officer.  That is only a part of what an XO does, however, and it's not even the most important part.

-Polaris

[Shadow_broker]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually most of the Characters DO care about Cerberus. Garrus quite pointedly reminds you of the sick experiment that Cerberus did and says you shouldn't trust them. Tali of course is obvious. Kasumi and Zaeed are both human mercs who are paid by Cerberus (so that's obvious and I mentioned it). That leaves Mordin, Samara, Thane, and Jack.

Mordin makes it clear that he's had run-ins with Cerberus before. While Mordin is willing to work with almost anyone, he makes it clear that he knows full well that he is aware of Cerberus' reputation. Samara when the issue comes up reiterates very forcibly that she is sworn to YOU (Shepard) and not Cerberus. Jack is obvious. As for Thane go back to his confrontation with Jacob. Again Thane makes it very clear that his arm is Shepard's NOT Cerberus' and he also makes it plain that he doesn't like or trust the illusive man.

Forgot one....Grunt. Grunt says very little (honestly there is very little to Grunt's persona at all but that's another topic). Given he as the knowledge of the Warlord, Okeer, however, I doubt that Grunt is all that entranced with Cerberus either (being Krogan).

-Polaris

Grunt just wants to scrap
Mordin and thane have no problem dying by cerebrus as long as it's to save lives

[Mister Mida]

Lawson can stay, but I personally would probably have picked Garrus. But then again, in ME2 you're on a Cerberus vessel. I doubt the crew would listen to an alien.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 19 août 2010 - 01:28 .