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[IanPolaris]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Biowar claims? it's their story

What they write is fact even if it was just for plot armor she is from what we've seen the most capable leader

This thread is discussing her as a future XO not her suicide mission leadership role, Garrus is not fit to manage a ship the way miranda does

There is NOTHING in Miranda's backstory or on screen demenor that even remotely suggests she is a good leader much less the best leader in the squad.  Given that she is nearly impossible to kill in the suicide mission (no matter what) AND is conspiciously the only character that can suceed at any plot important aspect of the suicide mission without being loyal REEKS of plot armor.

Being an XO is far more than "managing" a ship.  I have no qualms about Miranda as an administrator. She's probably the best at it.  That's a far cry from being a leader though.

-Polaris

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...

There is NOTHING in Miranda's backstory or on screen demenor that even remotely suggests she is a good leader much less the best leader in the squad.  Given that she is nearly impossible to kill in the suicide mission (no matter what) AND is conspiciously the only character that can suceed at any plot important aspect of the suicide mission without being loyal REEKS of plot armor.

Being an XO is far more than "managing" a ship.  I have no qualms about Miranda as an administrator. She's probably the best at it.  That's a far cry from being a leader though.

-Polaris

Have you read her passive power description? There you have proof that she is a good leader/tactician. No other squadmate has something like that.

[DrAbysmal]

Miranda has plot armor because she has essential speaking roles throughout the mission, prompting Shepard to make decisions, choose a squad, etc. Once that role is fulfilled at the end of the mission she may die like any other character. Rather than have the other actors voice those parts in case Miranda is dead they decided to just make her invincible for most of the mission.

[IanPolaris]

Yannkee wrote...

[The goal of the mission is NOT to make survive everyone.
So yes, she can do it and she succeed the mission.

The objective of that part of the mission is to protect the team (the ENTIRE TEAM) in order to pass through the security doors.  Failing to protect all members of the team, means you FAILED that objective (to protect the team).  It's true that Shepard can make up for this and have the survivors suceed in their primary objective anyway, but that does not diminish my point.  Miranda volunteers for a job that she is not suited for and FAILS.  Not only does she fail, but her suggestion actively puts other lives at risk and even the mission at risk when the best person for the job has already volunteered.  It's a completely unforced error driven by ego and insecurity.

Wrong, she is can do it and that's why she volunteer.
The casualties are the results of Shepard's choice ONLY.

The fact you have casualties means she can NOT do the job she is volunteering for.  Volunteering and then acting like any biotic can do it is putting lives at risk when Miranda knows perfectly well that Samara/Morinth is the best person for the job and has already volunteered.

Miranda is one of the best Cerberus operative. She's most capable. She didn't lose her whole squad during a mission.

You're right.  She lost an entire space-station (probably with about a hundred or so personelle many with invaluable and irreplaceable technical skills.

If don't give Garrus a pass because Sidonis betrayed him, then I am not obligated to give MIranda a pass because of Wilson either.

This is a ridiculous excuse because you don't like the character, and you don't want to admit that she's a good leader.

There is nothing in her background or protrayed character that should lead you to believe that she is a good leader.  Good adminstrator?  You bet!  She's a stellar S2.  Good leader?  No.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...

Have you read her passive power description? There you have proof that she is a good leader/tactician. No other squadmate has something like that.

I've read it.  I am not impressed.  It still doesn't mean she's a good leader.  As others have said, it's a clear case of plotarmor so Bioware didn't have to have a lot of different Voice Actors (I should have realized that).  Until Shepard has no more decisions to make, Miranda is not allowed to die.

-Polaris

[tonnactus]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Miranda is one of the best Cerberus operative. She's most capable. She didn't lose her whole squad during a mission.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Miranda did exactly the same thing, even on a larger scale!

If you really don't know that, you should play another round of Mass Effect 2. Miranda lost a whole Spacestation full of men and women.
I say that beats Garrus on Squadmate Annihilation Ladder by a few dozen lives at minimum!

I really shouldn't have to explain this!

And to add something:Wilson betrayal didnt happen because he feared to lost his live.It was far more predictable
then that of sidonis who was captured and dont wanted to die.

[Caihn]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Miranda is one of the best Cerberus operative. She's most capable. She didn't lose her whole squad during a mission.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Miranda did exactly the same thing, even on a larger scale!

If you really don't know that, you should play another round of Mass Effect 2. Miranda lost a whole Spacestation full of men and women.
I say that beats Garrus on Squadmate Annihilation Ladder by a few dozen lives at minimum!

I really shouldn't have to explain this!

YOU should play another round.
She deliberately let the whole station crew die to save Shepard. Even Jacob agree that Shepard is the only one that matters. If Shepard was not so important they would probably saved many people.

[Barquiel]

tonnactus wrote...

And to add something:Wilson betrayal didnt happen because he feared to lost his live.It was far more predictable
then that of sidonis who was captured and dont wanted to die.

We don't know why Wilson betrayed Cerberus.

[tonnactus]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Offtopic:
Oh I am soo going to kill her off in my current playthrough. Does having her unoyal and taking her with me to the final boss suffice for letting her NOT survive or do I have to pull more strings?

Its enough.No unloyal squadmember could survive the final boss.

[IanPolaris]

Yannkee wrote...

YOU should play another round.
She deliberately let the whole station crew die to save Shepard. Even Jacob agree that Shepard is the only one that matters. If Shepard was not so important they would probably saved many people.

Facts not in evidence.  Yes Miranda made sure that Shepard had the best chance to survive.  However, the station and it's personelle and resources were Miranda's responsibility and she got them killed.  You don't know that Miranda couldn't have saved more people.  Miranda makes it perfectly plain when you first meet her that she doesn't particularly care which is NOT the sign of a good leader.  Jacob makes it perfectly clear that he does care but getting Shepard away is more important.

The point is this:  You are engaging in a double-standard.  If you give Miranda a pass because Wilson betrayed her (as I am inclined to as well),then you have to give Garrus a pass because Sidonis betrayed him.

-Polaris

[tonnactus]

Barquiel wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

And to add something:Wilson betrayal didnt happen because he feared to lost his live.It was far more predictable
then that of sidonis who was captured and dont wanted to die.

We don't know why Wilson betrayed Cerberus.

It was quite obviuos that he wasnt satisfied(an understatement).For someone who wanted to put a control ship in shepardts brain and read
his emails its hard to believe that she didnt know this(and wilson wasnt someone unimportant in this project).In a such expensive project(and a risky one since the shadowbroker has enough money to corrupt people to get shepardts body) i would start an investigation or at least
would tell jacob to put an eye on him. Nothing of this happened as far as we know.

Modifié par tonnactus, 19 août 2010 - 01:51 .

[IanPolaris]

Barquiel wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

And to add something:Wilson betrayal didnt happen because he feared to lost his live.It was far more predictable
then that of sidonis who was captured and dont wanted to die.

We don't know why Wilson betrayed Cerberus.

Yes we do.  Wilson's personal logs can be read on your way out the base.  Basically Wilson betrayed everyone else because of Greed (and remember that the collectors wanted Shepard's body very, very badly).

-Polaris

[Caihn]

IanPolaris wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

YOU should play another round.
She deliberately let the whole station crew die to save Shepard. Even Jacob agree that Shepard is the only one that matters. If Shepard was not so important they would probably saved many people.

Facts not in evidence.  Yes Miranda made sure that Shepard had the best chance to survive.  However, the station and it's personelle and resources were Miranda's responsibility and she got them killed.  You don't know that Miranda couldn't have saved more people.  Miranda makes it perfectly plain when you first meet her that she doesn't particularly care which is NOT the sign of a good leader.  Jacob makes it perfectly clear that he does care but getting Shepard away is more important.

The point is this:  You are engaging in a double-standard.  If you give Miranda a pass because Wilson betrayed her (as I am inclined to as well),then you have to give Garrus a pass because Sidonis betrayed him.

-Polaris

Garrus saved NOBODY.
Miranda succeed her primary objective : save Shepard. She even succeed to save one of her best element : Jacob.

[krimesh]

jlb524 wrote...

...

Garrus?  I don't see why everyone thinks he would be great XO material.  If you want to talk about failures (since most here want to bring up the Miranda biotic bubble thing) Garrus did get his whole team killed....then went on a vengeance spree.  His head isn't cool enough to lead in a military setting.  He makes a good merc leader, but not a good XO of a war ship.

In general I agree. But I would rather say that Garrus is impulsive, which makes him a good *squad* leader. He thinks fast, and is efficient in combat situations. And that's where he feels best. On the Normandy he is happily operating and improving the weapon systems. Making a person like that an XO seems like a really bad choice to me.

I think the reason we can't pick an XO ourselves (besides the fact that Cerberus sort of owns Shepard and the Normandy before the Suicide Mission) is just because Miranda is the only sensible choice.

[tonnactus]

IanPolaris wrote...


Facts not in evidence.  Yes Miranda made sure that Shepard had the best chance to survive. 

-Polaris

Yes.And if it wasnt for gameplay,no one could guaranteed that shepardt would be spared instead of one other squadmember who was captured by the swarms. A lot of people seem to forget that.

To bad that shepardt couldnt be captured by the swarms.
I bet a lot less people would defend miranda in this case.

[IanPolaris]

Yannkee wrote...

Garrus saved NOBODY.
Miranda succeed her primary objective : save Shepard. She even succeed to save one of her best element : Jacob.

Now you are rewriting the rules to suit yourself:  EPIC FAIL

The FACT is that Miranda was betrayed and lost far more than Garrus ever did.  Garrus' overall mission was to fight the merc gangs which had taken over Omega and in spite of being betrayed he survives and ultimately is able to fulfill that mission.  Remember too that Garrus was the OVERAL LEADER with an overall mission statement while Miranda was a project director with a very specific and highly defined objective...and Miranda never had the independant command and authority that Garrus did (TIM ran things very tight on the Lazarus project...as Miranda mentions more than once).

Stop changing the conditions to suit your preconceptions.  The fact is that you are engaging in double-standards.  Any leader can be betrayed and Miranda handled it far worse (and with far more warning) than Garrus did.

-Polaris

[tonnactus]

Yannkee wrote...

Miranda succeed her primary objective : save Shepard.

The only thing she did was to awake shepardt and to show him where armor and weapons are.Shepardt and jacob saved themselves.

[Mister Mida]

Not that I'm thinking about it, it would be better if the SR-2 had his own 'Presley' to be XO instead of one of your squaddies.

[KendallX23]

so Polaris...since u are a doctor in insecurities..maybe u can tell me why it never affected my job though i am insecure..?

Miranda is insecure about her achievments compared to SHep but they never affected her job...u still look for everything u can to make it look like she is a failure as an XO...she lacks people skills but she does a fine job overall.

Jacob didn't volunteer out of enthusiasm in my opinion..he didn't look enthusiast when he said it..he volunteered because he tought he could do it...

[IanPolaris]

krimesh wrote...
I think the reason we can't pick an XO ourselves (besides the fact that Cerberus sort of owns Shepard and the Normandy before the Suicide Mission) is just because Miranda is the only sensible choice.

That's true only if things don't go wrong.  However, the minute Shepard died and/or was incapacitated and/or unavailable, Miranda wouldnt' be able to lead the ship out of a paper sack.  Garrus could.

I am not saying that Garrus is perfect and his adminstration skills do need loads of work for him to have higher stategetic command.....but when the bullets fly and the blood is flowing, it's Garrus not Miranda that you want to have in charge and THAT is what you ultimately want in an XO on a combat vessel...someone who can be the captain when the captain isn't there.  It's also why virtually all captains have to be an XO before being promoted to a captaincy of a vessel (or any displacement).

Miranda is a terrific administrator and as an operations officer (S2) she is beyond reproach.  That makes her seem like the best XO...until you actually need an XO....and that is the last time you want to discover you don't have one....

-Polaris

[krimesh]

IanPolaris wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Garrus saved NOBODY.
Miranda succeed her primary objective : save Shepard. She even succeed to save one of her best element : Jacob.

Now you are rewriting the rules to suit yourself:  EPIC FAIL

The FACT is that Miranda was betrayed and lost far more than Garrus ever did.  Garrus' overall mission was to fight the merc gangs which had taken over Omega and in spite of being betrayed he survives and ultimately is able to fulfill that mission.  Remember too that Garrus was the OVERAL LEADER with an overall mission statement while Miranda was a project director with a very specific and highly defined objective...and Miranda never had the independant command and authority that Garrus did (TIM ran things very tight on the Lazarus project...as Miranda mentions more than once).

Stop changing the conditions to suit your preconceptions.  The fact is that you are engaging in double-standards.  Any leader can be betrayed and Miranda handled it far worse (and with far more warning) than Garrus did.

-Polaris

Why are you talking about "Leaders"? An XO is not supposed to be a leader. An XO is an extension of the Captain of a vessel. If anything an XO should keep the ship operational in the absence of the captain. And Miranda will do that, while Garrus might go on a killing spree with it again and get everyone killed. I like Garrus. Don't think I don't.

[IanPolaris]

tonnactus wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Miranda succeed her primary objective : save Shepard.

The only thing she did was to awake shepardt and to show him where armor and weapons are.Shepardt and jacob saved themselves.

To be completely fair, she probably did draw a fair amount of mech support away from Shepard and Jacob but still you're point is well taken.

-Polaris

[krimesh]

That's the hole point of mass effect. If Shepard dies, the reapers win.