479 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

krimesh wrote...

Why are you talking about "Leaders"? An XO is not supposed to be a leader. An XO is an extension of the Captain of a vessel. If anything an XO should keep the ship operational in the absence of the captain. And Miranda will do that, while Garrus might go on a killing spree with it again and get everyone killed. I like Garrus. Don't think I don't.

An XO is absolutely supposed to be a leader.  In fact being an XO is the penultimate step in just about any major Navy to being the captain of your own vessel.

Yes, to be sure, being the Captain's right arm and having solid adminstration skills are very important, but the ultimate reason for an XO's existance is to fill in for the captain and BE the captain when the captain isn't there.

You get a down-check as an XO, and you never captain a ship even if you retire as an admiral.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

krimesh wrote...

That's the hole point of mass effect. If Shepard dies, the reapers win.

Indeed and it's this that put's Miranda's Biotic Bubble moment in even a worse light.  You don't know in character that the seeker swarms will spare Shepard.  You do know that if the bubble fails, one or more of the team will be carried off by the seekers and thus die....and one of those people could be Shepard...at which point the whole mission and campaign fails.

-Polaris

[Nightwriter]

Face it, guys. None of the NPCs on the Normandy are "leaders", in the strict way we're taking it.

Jack is a criminal. Thane and Samara have been alone all their lives. Legion's a robot. Grunt's a grunt. Mordin's a scientist. Garrus got his team killed. Tali got her team killed. Jacob gives us no evidence of leadership skills, and technically he was in charge of Lazarus Station's security.

If you want you can find reasons why every single character is unfit to be a leader, and ways every single one of them has failed.

If the only XO you'll take is someone who has never screwed up before, there are simply none to be found.

[jlb524]

When you put it that way, even Shepard has screwed up before....

[krimesh]

IanPolaris wrote...

krimesh wrote...

Why are you talking about "Leaders"? An XO is not supposed to be a leader. An XO is an extension of the Captain of a vessel. If anything an XO should keep the ship operational in the absence of the captain. And Miranda will do that, while Garrus might go on a killing spree with it again and get everyone killed. I like Garrus. Don't think I don't.

An XO is absolutely supposed to be a leader.  In fact being an XO is the penultimate step in just about any major Navy to being the captain of your own vessel.

Yes, to be sure, being the Captain's right arm and having solid adminstration skills are very important, but the ultimate reason for an XO's existance is to fill in for the captain and BE the captain when the captain isn't there.

You get a down-check as an XO, and you never captain a ship even if you retire as an admiral.

-Polaris

We are talking ME here. Shepard is one chance everyone gets against the reapers. The SR-2 is not about functioning well without Shepard. And it's not about educating future ship captains. If Shepard is gone the Normandy is on standby, waiting for him to come back.
Also at the very start of this thread someone said that the SR-2 is not exactly a military vessel. And in many cases it is Joker who makes the decisions when Shepard is gone. For what is left of XOing Miranda is perfectly suited for it. Except when it come to not being at war with Jack. But then again it's not a military vessel.

[Kronner]

IanPolaris wrote...

krimesh wrote...

That's the hole point of mass effect. If Shepard dies, the reapers win.

Indeed and it's this that put's Miranda's Biotic Bubble moment in even a worse light.  You don't know in character that the seeker swarms will spare Shepard.  You do know that if the bubble fails, one or more of the team will be carried off by the seekers and thus die....and one of those people could be Shepard...at which point the whole mission and campaign fails.

-Polaris

My god, NO ONE knows what to expect. Just because Miranda said she CAN create and hold the bubble (which is true) does not mean she did it to get attention. She is not 13 year old crybaby. If you pick her, she GETS you through that part - someone will die - but the mission continues. Seriously, your biotic bubble argument is ridiculous.
How the hell do YOU know she could not lead? You have no idea. Nada.
BioWare says she is a good leader - so she is, no matter what YOU want her to be. She is not worse than Garrus as far as tactics go - she is actually better - as demonstrated in the game. If you stick to the facts there is nothing wrong with her leadership other than YOUR biased view. From what we know she COULD be XO.

Modifié par Kronner, 19 août 2010 - 02:18 .

[IanPolaris]

krimesh wrote...

We are talking ME here. Shepard is one chance everyone gets against the reapers. The SR-2 is not about functioning well without Shepard. And it's not about educating future ship captains. If Shepard is gone the Normandy is on standby, waiting for him to come back.
Also at the very start of this thread someone said that the SR-2 is not exactly a military vessel. And in many cases it is Joker who makes the decisions when Shepard is gone. For what is left of XOing Miranda is perfectly suited for it. Except when it come to not being at war with Jack. But then again it's not a military vessel.

Whatever it's official status, the SR2 Normandy is still clearly run on military lines and that means if you want to talk about an XO, we'll talk about an XO in the military sense.

Now, if you wish to claim that Miranda should be the head adminstrator of the ship who signs most things off without Shepard knowing about it, I'll give you that.  As an administrator, organizer, and what in the Army would be called an "S2" or operations officer, Miranda does an absolutely spendid job.  She could earn a 6 figure income at any major corp easy, but that's not all there is to being an XO.  Frankly it's not even the most important part.

-Polaris

[tonnactus]

IanPolaris wrote...

To be completely fair, she probably did draw a fair amount of mech support away from Shepard and Jacob but still you're point is well taken.

-Polaris

How much mechs one person could draw away?It was a discharge at best.But far away from saving.Most work in this
part was made by shepardt and jacob theirselves.

[Nightwriter]

Hmm. I believe Miranda says Wilson sent an "army" of mechs after her.

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

When you put it that way, even Shepard has screwed up before....

There you have it. Shepard is unfit to lead!

[IanPolaris]

Kronner wrote...

My god, NO ONE knows what to expect. Just because Miranda said she CAN create and hold the bubble (which is true) does not mean she did it to get attention. She is not 13 year old crybaby. If you pick her, she GETS you through that part - someone will die - but the mission continues. Seriously, your biotic bubble argument is ridiculous.
How the hell do YOU know she could not lead? You have no idea. Nada.
BioWare says she is a good leader - so she is, no matter what YOU want her to be. She is not worse than Garrus as far as tactics go - she is actually better - as demonstrated in the game. If you stick to the facts there is nothing wrong with her leadership other than YOUR biased view. From what we know she COULD be XO.

You are completely missing the argument.  I will explain.  The fault I have is not that Miranda fails to maintain the biotic bubble (and it's not true they don't know what the expect.  EDI gives the team rather good intel about what to expect and no one things maintaining such a barrier would be easy).

The fault I have with her is this:  Samara (or Morinth) who is clearly, hands down the most capable and strongest biotic except perhaps Jack (and Jack works as well) either volunteers or confirms that a biotic bubble should be enough to keep a small team safe so that the team can unlock the security doors from the other side.

At this point, the best thing Miranda can do is say nothing since the best person for the job is already volunteering.  Insteed she pops up with a "I can do it too" implying that she should be chosen for the job and that she is at least as good if not better than the best biotic on the team and Miranda knows better than this.  It is her job to make sure Shepard suceeds and that means having the best people for the right jobs and Samara/Morinth (or Jack but I can excuse Miranda not thinking of Jack) is the right person for this job and so Miranda needs to keep her trap shut.  She compounds this error by suggesting that any biotic character will suffice when that is not so (and even if it were so, puts the mission at needless risk).

So why does she do it?  Pride coupled with her own deep seated insecurities that made her cry out, "Me too" which is a sure sign of a poor leader who can't control their own emotions/insecurities.  If that were the only instance, I might be accused of being too hard on Miranda, but she shows this same pattern repeatedly throughout the game!

-Polaris

[Nightwriter]

Rofl, just like Jacob volunteers for the vents but he's not the best person for the job?

[krimesh]

IanPolaris wrote...

krimesh wrote...

We are talking ME here. Shepard is one chance everyone gets against the reapers. The SR-2 is not about functioning well without Shepard. And it's not about educating future ship captains. If Shepard is gone the Normandy is on standby, waiting for him to come back.
Also at the very start of this thread someone said that the SR-2 is not exactly a military vessel. And in many cases it is Joker who makes the decisions when Shepard is gone. For what is left of XOing Miranda is perfectly suited for it. Except when it come to not being at war with Jack. But then again it's not a military vessel.

Whatever it's official status, the SR2 Normandy is still clearly run on military lines and that means if you want to talk about an XO, we'll talk about an XO in the military sense.

Now, if you wish to claim that Miranda should be the head adminstrator of the ship who signs most things off without Shepard knowing about it, I'll give you that.  As an administrator, organizer, and what in the Army would be called an "S2" or operations officer, Miranda does an absolutely spendid job.  She could earn a 6 figure income at any major corp easy, but that's not all there is to being an XO.  Frankly it's not even the most important part.

-Polaris

So then tell me, what can't she do? Except being Shepard.2, because that is impossible by ME hypothesis. And how exactly do you want to talk about an XO if she might be on shore with Shepard, and even if not Joker is still making all the decisions.
Honestly, sometime it feels like the Normandy is operated like a one man vessel with a huge cargo hold. Actually, when the crew is gone that is what happens. So how exactly is there an XO on SR-2. Comparisons to 21st century armed forces are not always applicable. The SR-2 is no Navy ship, it is a bloody space vehicle with an AI and a crew made up of psychopaths, mercs, a Grunt and a Geth platform among others. 21st century military structures are not supposed to work in that setting.

Modifié par krimesh, 19 août 2010 - 02:31 .

[tonnactus]

Kronner wrote...

My god, NO ONE knows what to expect.

And thats why she should never interrupted samara.Because obviusly that is a stronger biotic then her.

 

If you pick her, she GETS you through that part - someone will die - but the mission continues.

No one could know for sure that shepardt would be the one that survived that non the matter.Its not like she restricted
her barrier around shepardt only before it broke down.(according to the you tube vids)

Modifié par tonnactus, 19 août 2010 - 02:30 .

[tonnactus]

Nightwriter wrote...

Hmm. I believe Miranda says Wilson sent an "army" of mechs after her.

So she could arrive first at the shuttle bay...

[Elyvern]

tonnactus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Hmm. I believe Miranda says Wilson sent an "army" of mechs after her.

So she could arrive first at the shuttle bay...

And that only serves to prove how competent she is.

[IanPolaris]

Nightwriter wrote...

Rofl, just like Jacob volunteers for the vents but he's not the best person for the job?

Actually Jacob volunteers because it's a dangerous job and he doesn't interrupt someone who is clearly better at the job and is volunteering.  At this point Miranda does correctly point out that you need a tech expert for this, but that isn't leadship except in it's most basic form.  It's really just stating the obvious.

That's completely different from Miranda's biotic bubble moment.

-Polaris

[tonnactus]

Nightwriter wrote...

Rofl, just like Jacob volunteers for the vents but he's not the best person for the job?

If someone like tali volunteers before jacob did that...

Missed the point.
Jacob was the first and he put his life on the line,thinking its suicide to do that job.

[IanPolaris]

Elyvern wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Hmm. I believe Miranda says Wilson sent an "army" of mechs after her.

So she could arrive first at the shuttle bay...

And that only serves to prove how competent she is.

Actually no. It proves how ruthless she is.  Miranda made it a primary goal (after waking up Shepard) to get to the docking bay first.  Why?  To insure that Cerberus would maintain control over shepard, that's why.  It's clear from her conversation at the time that she regarded Jacob as too soft for the task (and she is right about that).

-Polaris

[Nightwriter]

Miranda is BioWare's mouthpiece for this segment of the game. They use her to lay out your options for you, and they need to lay out a broad array of options so it's not too easy. When she speaks up, BioWare is saying, "you can select any biotic for this task".

Indeed some said it was too easy. Perhaps Miranda should've suggested everyone use styrofoam bullets and enter the base through the sewage system, that would've made it much more difficult.

[tonnactus]

Elyvern wrote...


And that only serves to prove how competent she is.

Oh yes.She is even a better fighter then jacob and shepardt together.Now i see it.

[IanPolaris]

Nightwriter wrote...

Miranda is BioWare's mouthpiece for this segment of the game. They use her to lay out your options for you, and they need to lay out a broad array of options so it's not too easy. When she speaks up, BioWare is saying, "you can select any biotic for this task".
.

Which is why Miranda is given plotarmor and thus is permitted to work as the second fire team leader even when not loyal.  It has nothing to do with leadership and everything to do with a BW plot contrivance so that BW didn't have to record multiple voice lines to give Shepard direction.

-Polaris

[Elyvern]

IanPolaris wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Hmm. I believe Miranda says Wilson sent an "army" of mechs after her.

So she could arrive first at the shuttle bay...

And that only serves to prove how competent she is.

Actually no. It proves how ruthless she is.  Miranda made it a primary goal (after waking up Shepard) to get to the docking bay first.  Why?  To insure that Cerberus would maintain control over shepard, that's why.  It's clear from her conversation at the time that she regarded Jacob as too soft for the task (and she is right about that).

-Polaris

I have absolutely no problems with her being ruthless. A ruthless XO can be an asset.