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[Nightwriter]

IanPolaris wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Miranda is BioWare's mouthpiece for this segment of the game. They use her to lay out your options for you, and they need to lay out a broad array of options so it's not too easy. When she speaks up, BioWare is saying, "you can select any biotic for this task".
.

Which is why Miranda is given plotarmor and thus is permitted to work as the second fire team leader even when not loyal.  It has nothing to do with leadership and everything to do with a BW plot contrivance so that BW didn't have to record multiple voice lines to give Shepard direction.

-Polaris

Yep.

... So what does this have to do with Miranda being an abominable XO again?

[IanPolaris]

Elyvern wrote...

I have absolutely no problems with her being ruthless. A ruthless XO can be an asset.

Up to a point I can agree with this, but only up to a point.  The idea that Miranda can take out more mechs than Jacob and Shepard combined is of course laughable.  This means that Miranda let her people die in order to make sure that she had the best chance of cutting off Shepard before he could escape the station and thus out of Cerberus' grasp. 

That's almost Vlad the Impaler rutheless and IMHO a step too far....especially considering her prompt shooting of Wilson and total disregard for all the the other lives on the station.  I know of very few people that would willingly follow a person like that if they had any choice at all in the matter.

-Polaris

[Nightwriter]

Elyvern wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Hmm. I believe Miranda says Wilson sent an "army" of mechs after her.

So she could arrive first at the shuttle bay...

And that only serves to prove how competent she is.

Actually no. It proves how ruthless she is.  Miranda made it a primary goal (after waking up Shepard) to get to the docking bay first.  Why?  To insure that Cerberus would maintain control over shepard, that's why.  It's clear from her conversation at the time that she regarded Jacob as too soft for the task (and she is right about that).

-Polaris

I have absolutely no problems with her being ruthless. A ruthless XO can be an asset.

You know I'm not sure so it has anything to do with ruthlessness, now that I think on it.

When you're at the next facility, and she's being so cold with you, she says, "My people lost their lives for this, Shepard. For you. I just hope it's worth it." And she sounds really bitter.

I think TIM just made it clear to her, from the beginning: Shepard was what was most important.

She knew she had to reach that shuttlebay first to kill Wilson. Jacob and Shepard would've been in the dark otherwise, compromised. So she did it. But I'm not so certain she was as happy doing it as some make out.

[IanPolaris]

Nightwriter wrote...

Yep.

... So what does this have to do with Miranda being an abominable XO again?

I'm more than willing to take responsibility for what I say, but putting words in my mouth is a step too far.  I've never called her an abominable XO.  I said that she wasn't leadership material (although excellent adminstration material) and that IMHO not the best choice for being XO all other things being equal.  However, if you read my original post on this thread I aknowledge that all other things are not equal and given a Cerberus crew she may be the best choices given certain circumstances.

-Polaris

[Elyvern]

IanPolaris wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

I have absolutely no problems with her being ruthless. A ruthless XO can be an asset.

Up to a point I can agree with this, but only up to a point.  The idea that Miranda can take out more mechs than Jacob and Shepard combined is of course laughable.  This means that Miranda let her people die in order to make sure that she had the best chance of cutting off Shepard before he could escape the station and thus out of Cerberus' grasp. 

That's almost Vlad the Impaler rutheless and IMHO a step too far....especially considering her prompt shooting of Wilson and total disregard for all the the other lives on the station.  I know of very few people that would willingly follow a person like that if they had any choice at all in the matter.

-Polaris

I can't say I agree with you that the reason Miranda gets to the shuttle bay first is to cut Shepard off from escaping. That's just downright personal conjecture, because I can also argue that she made it priority to get to the shuttle bay to secure their escape route, and trusted Jacob and Shepard to be more than a match for the mechs that block their way.

[IanPolaris]

Nightwriter wrote...

You know I'm not sure so it has anything to do with ruthlessness, now that I think on it.

When you're at the next facility, and she's being so cold with you, she says, "My people lost their lives for this, Shepard. For you. I just hope it's worth it." And she sounds really bitter.

I think TIM just made it clear to her, from the beginning: Shepard was what was most important.

She knew she had to reach that shuttlebay first to kill Wilson. Jacob and Shepard would've been in the dark otherwise, compromised. So she did it. But I'm not so certain she was as happy doing it as some make out.

I do.  First impressions under stress are the ones that count, and Miranda's first impressions are terrible.  She shows no regard and no remorse for those that have died.  Jacob by contrast does but says that the mission is worth it (i.e. Shepard must live so their lives mean something).  Couple that with Miranda's execution style murder (and yes it was MURDER) of Wilson and I am not impressed.

-Polaris

[Nightwriter]

IanPolaris wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Yep.

... So what does this have to do with Miranda being an abominable XO again?

I'm more than willing to take responsibility for what I say, but putting words in my mouth is a step too far.  I've never called her an abominable XO.  I said that she wasn't leadership material (although excellent adminstration material) and that IMHO not the best choice for being XO all other things being equal.  However, if you read my original post on this thread I aknowledge that all other things are not equal and given a Cerberus crew she may be the best choices given certain circumstances.

-Polaris

It's just light hyperbole, my good fellow, no seriousness intended. I actually can quite understand why other people would be uncomfortable with Miranda as XO, even if I myself am not. She's hard to read, hard to relate to and apparently hard to like. People are not always sure of her motives.

[IanPolaris]

Elyvern wrote...

I can't say I agree with you that the reason Miranda gets to the shuttle bay first is to cut Shepard off from escaping. That's just downright personal conjecture, because I can also argue that she made it priority to get to the shuttle bay to secure their escape route, and trusted Jacob and Shepard to be more than a match for the mechs that block their way.

 I don't buy it.  Given that Miranda and Shepard were in the same wing to start with (D wing), and given that Shepard and Jacob have at least twice the firepower as Miranda, this makes zero sense.  It makes more sense for her to draw away the mechs from the docking bay to give Shepard and Jacob the best shot of making it if Shepard's survival was her primary goal.  She might even give (as a bonus) other station personal the breathing space to escape as well.

No.  She deliberately and with aforethought cut off Shepard and Jacob (and thus sacrificed the people on the station) to INSURE that Shepard remained under her personal control.  That along with her other initial reactions is more than sufficnent to brand her as murderously ruthless (to a fault).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Nightwriter wrote...
It's just light hyperbole, my good fellow, no seriousness intended. I actually can quite understand why other people would be uncomfortable with Miranda as XO, even if I myself am not. She's hard to read, hard to relate to and apparently hard to like. People are not always sure of her motives.

Exactly and that makes her a poor leader.

-Polaris

[Nightwriter]

IanPolaris wrote...

I do.  First impressions under stress are the ones that count, and Miranda's first impressions are terrible.  She shows no regard and no remorse for those that have died.  Jacob by contrast does but says that the mission is worth it (i.e. Shepard must live so their lives mean something).  Couple that with Miranda's execution style murder (and yes it was MURDER) of Wilson and I am not impressed.

-Polaris

Well, she does show remorse later on, even bitterness at what was sacrificed for you. So the lives did matter to her, she is just not as expressive about it as Jacob. Miranda is simply not an open character (at first).

But you're quite entitled to dislike her. I knew Wilson was the traitor, I was just peeved that she shot him before we could get answers. Felt like BioWare's way of sweeping the whole situation under the rug. Irritating.

[Elyvern]

Let's just agree to disagree, shall we? To me, your conditions for Miranda "herding" Shepard and Jacob along the channels she wants just sounds utterly tenuous. Miranda's introduction just smacks of bad writing to me, anyway. Shepard was not remotely in danger from Wilson. He was unarmed for God's sake. The entire set up just felt like a card tower, with the sole intention of creating a strong impression of Miranda on the player, for better or for worse.

Modifié par Elyvern, 19 août 2010 - 03:04 .

[Nightwriter]

IanPolaris wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
It's just light hyperbole, my good fellow, no seriousness intended. I actually can quite understand why other people would be uncomfortable with Miranda as XO, even if I myself am not. She's hard to read, hard to relate to and apparently hard to like. People are not always sure of her motives.

Exactly and that makes her a poor leader.

-Polaris

Do you mean she is a poor leader, or do you mean that she remains largely an unknown to you, and thus you do not trust her?

Truth is, we have really no evidence of Miranda's leadership skills - or anyone else's, lol. I don't really count it as a failure on a character's part when they fail because the plot makes it necessary. Same reason I don't count Tali or Garrus as failures. Garrus's team had to die for him to join us, ditto for Tali, Lazarus Station had to get destroyed, etc.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 19 août 2010 - 03:02 .

[IanPolaris]

Nightwriter wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
It's just light hyperbole, my good fellow, no seriousness intended. I actually can quite understand why other people would be uncomfortable with Miranda as XO, even if I myself am not. She's hard to read, hard to relate to and apparently hard to like. People are not always sure of her motives.

Exactly and that makes her a poor leader.

-Polaris

Do you mean she is a poor leader, or do you mean that she remains largely an unknown to you, and thus you do not trust her?

I mean that the traits you have ascribed to MIranda (very accurately I might add) are those that would tend to make her a poor leader.  What's more, we see those traits and example of the same over and over again throughout the game.

Don't get me wrong.  I am not a "Garrus fanboi" and I am not a "Miranda h8tr" nor even a "Talimancer".  I am just calling them based on my personal and professional experience (much of it military) as I see them.  That's all.

-Polaris

[Elyvern]

sapientia24 wrote...

Wilson was not unarmed, right after you get him and while you are talking to Jacob about who he is working for it clearly shows that Wilson has a gun with him.

Besides Wilson was not the traitor, Wilson does not have the security clearance for the mechs. Only 2 people would have the security clearance for the mechs and they Miranda and Jacob. I see it as that Miranda used the mechs then sent the mechs after Wilson and Jacob and Shepard as well as everyone else to lure jacob and shepard to where she wants them to go. Miranda used Wilson as a scape goat.

My bad--he wasn't unarmed, he just holstered his weapon unlike Jacob and Shepard who had theirs live.

And thus you ignore Jacob's very pointed question about how Wilson managed to access the security control room without the clearance? Upon which Wilson responded with a very red herring statement about how he was shot. Methinks the man protests too much.  

Modifié par Elyvern, 19 août 2010 - 03:22 .

[Nightwriter]

IanPolaris wrote...

I mean that the traits you have ascribed to MIranda (very accurately I might add) are those that would tend to make her a poor leader.  What's more, we see those traits and example of the same over and over again throughout the game.

Don't get me wrong.  I am not a "Garrus fanboi" and I am not a "Miranda h8tr" nor even a "Talimancer".  I am just calling them based on my personal and professional experience (much of it military) as I see them.  That's all.

-Polaris

Well you sound quite reasonable actually, I don't think you're a hater. And you've got me wondering if I'm being impolite by not signing my name after my posts.

It depends on what you mean by leader. Different kinds of leaders are necessary in different situations. If you're asking if Miranda has the power to inspire and motivate, no. That's Shepard's job. It's why Shepard's necessary.

However, do I think she can get the job done? Do I think she's competent enough to run an operation or project? Yes. However, being Shepard's second-in-command in this situation does not require inspiration skills. If she had those skills, Shepard would be quite superfluous.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 19 août 2010 - 03:18 .

[PsyrenY]

My one problem picking her over Garrus is that TIM has a string tied to her - i.e. he knows where Oriana is. So he can get probably get her to betray me even post-resignation. Garrus has no such ties.

[Nightwriter]

Elyvern wrote...

Let's just agree to disagree, shall we? To me, your conditions for Miranda "herding" Shepard and Jacob along the channels she wants just sounds utterly tenuous. Miranda's introduction just smacks of bad writing to me, anyway. Shepard was not remotely in danger from Wilson. He was unarmed for God's sake. The entire set up just felt like a card tower, with the sole intention of creating a strong impression of Miranda on the player, for better or for worse.

Yeah that's how I felt as well. Like they were trying to make us go, "Ooh, look how ruthless she is! She's bad!"

I mean why build up that impression if on the ship she's going to do a total 180 and be all friendly all the sudden?

[Caihn]

Optimystic_X wrote...

My one problem picking her over Garrus is that TIM has a string tied to her - i.e. he knows where Oriana is. So he can get probably get her to betray me even post-resignation. Garrus has no such ties.

Betray the one who help her to save her sister ? 

Miranda: But thank you, Commander. My sister is safe again, thanks in large part to you. I won't forget that.

If her sister isn't safe anymore she will try to save her again. Shepard could even help Miranda again.

[PsyrenY]

Yannkee wrote...
Betray the one who help her to save her sister ? 

Miranda: But thank you, Commander. My sister is safe again, thanks in large part to you. I won't forget that.

If her sister isn't safe anymore she will try to save her again. Shepard could even help Miranda again.

That's different though. When she saved Oriana the first time, TIM was on her side. Now that he is against Miranda (If you go Paragon, that is,) then he can reforge the alliance he used to have with her father, and Oriana will be in danger.

It's not even clear if Miranda knows where Oriana was moved to. However, TIM definitely knows.

[IanPolaris]

ShadowJ20 wrote...

Just because you don't know who a leader is or understand them doesn't mean that they aren't good at leading.  A good leader should know squad mates capabilities. Miranda does know the squad mates skills well that's why she suggest Jacob shouldn't go in the vents and she knows that Garrus can lead the fire team.

Please don't tell me what I know and don't know. I make no claim to be personally a good leader.  Frankly I was mediocre at best, but I trained leaders and saw leadership (good and bad) first hand and I know what the professional military standards for leadership are and Miranda doesn't make the cut.  She's an excellent administrater and good manager yes, but that isn't all there is to leadership, not by a long mark.  Also knowing everyone's capacities is not the mark of a good leader either.  It's important but not what makes or doesn't make one a good leader.

Actually Miranda doesn't suggest Garrus for the fire team.  Her admission that Garrus can do the job is extremely grudging.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Optimystic_X wrote...

My one problem picking her over Garrus is that TIM has a string tied to her - i.e. he knows where Oriana is. So he can get probably get her to betray me even post-resignation. Garrus has no such ties.

Yep and worse, Miranda has already shown that she has a weak spot for her sister that can (and has!) affected her judgement and worse yet, TIM knows exactly where Oriana is and Miranda doesn't....and if Shep goes paragon, TIM will use it against Miranda.  Indeed at the very end, I am shocked he didn't use it against her then (when she resigned).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Yannkee wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

My one problem picking her over Garrus is that TIM has a string tied to her - i.e. he knows where Oriana is. So he can get probably get her to betray me even post-resignation. Garrus has no such ties.

Betray the one who help her to save her sister ? 

Miranda: But thank you, Commander. My sister is safe again, thanks in large part to you. I won't forget that.

If her sister isn't safe anymore she will try to save her again. Shepard could even help Miranda again.

How?  I don't think even Miranda knows where Oriana is....but it's virtually certain that TIM does.

-Polaris