37 réponses à ce sujet

[Omicrone]

We know Inferno ammo does 60% dmg to armor. We know heavy Disruptor does 60% to synthetics. So, my question is - which is more effective to use in the following situation:

You've got a Loki/YMIR mech whose only defence remaining is armor. Which ammo do you use to maximise your damage output on its armor? Does disruptor retain its 60% bonus damage while shooting at the mech's armor due to the target being synthetic (even though it's ineffective versus krogan armor, for example)? I know if your damage transitions from armor to health of the mech, disruptor will be more effective. This question is specifically about mech armor.

It's been bugging me for a while, so anyone with experience of both ammo types vs mech armor, share your observations please. Any other thoughts are welcome too

[OniGanon]

I'm pretty sure Disruptor's bonus vs synthetics is only active vs synthetic health. Similar for Inferno and shielded organics.



So you're better off using Inferno vs armour. Once it hits health you only need hit it with some form of CC and it's a goner.

[Simbacca]

Tungsten is the best for armored synthetics but if between Incendiary and Disruptor, depends.

If it's on your 1s/1k weapon (like the Mantis), or if your squad has control control abilities you want to use when it gets to health, then Incendiary.

If you're going to be using anti-armor squad abilities to strip their defense instead and then shoot them to death once they hit health, then Disruptor.

Loki Mechs fall apart and die so easily once they hit health that for them, it usually doesn't matter which anyway.

Modifié par Simbacca, 19 août 2010 - 03:04 .

[Omicrone]

That's all logical. The only thing I have yet to figure out is why Disruptor wouldn't keep its bonus vs mech armor, them being synthetics. It damages synthetic shields, it damages synthetic health, but it doesn't damage synthetic armor (Geth Primes, YMIR mechs)? Doesn't make sense if it works that way.

[IMNWME]

Energy Drain doesn't work on armored synthetics either, even though it should.

[termokanden]

No, neither Energy Drain nor Disruptor should have their bonus against armored synthetics. The general rule is that you must break through defenses before crowd control will work. Other than that, you have powers that specifically target shields, barriers or armor, and these obviously do what they should against those defenses.

There are a few exceptions to this rule. Singularity has a stun portion that works through defenses, and the overload on weapons, biotics and tech caused by Flashbang Grenade does as well.

As for whether you should use one or the other ammo, that's in fact why I posted a (as of yet unanswered) question about what resistance to fire means. Basically I wasn't sure whether synthetics are resistant only to the crowd control effect, resistant to the damage or completely immune. I'm still not sure.

I could go in and perform extensive tests, but I find it amusing that it's apparently not something that's generally known around here, even though people certainly have an opinion on Inferno Ammo vs Tungsten Ammo. Fights with mixed mechs/living targets or fights with armored mechs are simply ignored entirely in that discussion. These circumstances certainly seem to speak in favor of Tungsten Ammo, and this is why I believe it still has a place as a bonus power.

Modifié par termokanden, 19 août 2010 - 03:46 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Omicrone wrote...

We know Inferno ammo does 60% dmg to armor. We know heavy Disruptor does 60% to synthetics. So, my question is - which is more effective to use in the following situation:

You've got a Loki/YMIR mech whose only defence remaining is armor. Which ammo do you use to maximise your damage output on its armor? Does disruptor retain its 60% bonus damage while shooting at the mech's armor due to the target being synthetic (even though it's ineffective versus krogan armor, for example)? I know if your damage transitions from armor to health of the mech, disruptor will be more effective. This question is specifically about mech armor.

It's been bugging me for a while, so anyone with experience of both ammo types vs mech armor, share your observations please. Any other thoughts are welcome too

I recommend Incediary Ammo. Once armor is gone - you've won; Use CS or biotics to disable YMIR, that way it doesn't matter what ammo you're using - you don't need weapons anymore, just beat the damn YMIR to death.

I might be wrong, but I always have the feeling taking down YMIR shield requires more time than stripping their armor, so a fully protected YMIR goes down faster with Disruptor Ammo. Interesting case nevertheless.

[Deflagratio]

This is why I like Warp Ammo. It's just a great "Everything"(But Shields) ammo, making it ideal as either a party buff (Squad Warp ammo for people without ammo upgrades) or, if You have issues with collectors, specialize in the Anti-Harbinger Heavy Warp Ammo. There's a lot of conflicting thoughts on Warp Ammo, but as a Vanguard, that is just going to spam Charge (Thus making something like Barrier or Fortification unnecessary) I like the Team DPS boost I can give people like Mordin and Tali with Squad warp ammo, obviously I keep Inferno on everything but my SMG.



As for the actual OP question, While I think it's kind of irrelevant, I would put my money on Inferno for the LOKI mechs, and Disruptor for YMIR. Generally, there only tends to be 1-2 YMIR on the battlefield at any given time, so it's actually prudent to switch ammo types if you really need to blow through their armor.



That Said, Tungsten/AP will get you the most general bang for your ability buck in this situation. If you're a soldier, which I'm assuming since I think they're the only combo that gets Disruptor/Incedniary, for your bonus power, just pick Armor Piercing Ammo, that is unless you feel a real need to ignore the cover mechanic and use Fortifcation.

[Forst1999]

I would say Disruptor Ammo should be better, as the Loki's Armor is very weak. I haven't noticed a big effect of the flames on them either.

But since they rarely come alone, Incendiary Ammo often is better. The amount of health and shields on the average Blue Sun is about equal, and the big guys also have armor. The best in nearly all situations is Tungsten Ammo, only that it lacks the crowd control effects. Only Geth are clear candidates for Disruptor ammo, having shields and synthetic health.

[PsyrenY]

AFAIK, Disruptor's damage mod does not count against armor, even synthetic armor.



If you can take it, AP ammo gets full bonus to both armor and synthetics, getting you the best of both worlds. It takes up your bonus slot though.

Deflagratio wrote...



If you have issues with collectors, specialize in the Anti-Harbinger Heavy Warp Ammo.

Your post reminded me of this:

"Problems with Collectors? Try Kasumi's credit services!"

[termokanden]

Deflagratio wrote...

This is why I like Warp Ammo. It's just a great "Everything"(But Shields) ammo, making it ideal as either a party buff (Squad Warp ammo for people without ammo upgrades) or, if You have issues with collectors, specialize in the Anti-Harbinger Heavy Warp Ammo. There's a lot of conflicting thoughts on Warp Ammo, but as a Vanguard, that is just going to spam Charge (Thus making something like Barrier or Fortification unnecessary) I like the Team DPS boost I can give people like Mordin and Tali with Squad warp ammo, obviously I keep Inferno on everything but my SMG.

Warp Ammo seems great, but I'm wondering if not it is wasted in most cases, with people using it primarily against enemies that have no barriers where AP or Incindiary would do better. Then when a few enemies with barriers come along, they can't make up for the damage lost. Of course, all the differences mentioned are quite minimal in reality.

In any case, I still believe AP ammo has a place in this game as a bonus power for soldiers. I'm wondering if not Squad Incindiary plus Tungsten for yourself would be awesome. You get some CC and everyone getting a damage bonus against all enemies.

As for the actual OP question, While I think it's kind of irrelevant, I would put my money on Inferno for the LOKI mechs, and Disruptor for YMIR. Generally, there only tends to be 1-2 YMIR on the battlefield at any given time, so it's actually prudent to switch ammo types if you really need to blow through their armor.

Not sure how much you win by switching. Maybe a bit. Might also consider just breaking through that armor with Incinerate/Warp if you have it.

But I agree with the reasoning in this thread that Disruptor is probably best vs YMIR mechs.

That Said, Tungsten/AP will get you the most general bang for your ability buck in this situation. If you're a soldier, which I'm assuming since I think they're the only combo that gets Disruptor/Incedniary, for your bonus power, just pick Armor Piercing Ammo, that is unless you feel a real need to ignore the cover mechanic and use Fortifcation.

Seriously. If you're going to pick a defense power, both Geth Shield Boost/Barrier are better than Fortification in every single way. Silly but true  

[JaegerBane]

Deflagratio wrote...

This is why I like Warp Ammo. It's just a great "Everything"(But Shields) ammo, making it ideal as either a party buff (Squad Warp ammo for people without ammo upgrades) or, if You have issues with collectors, specialize in the Anti-Harbinger Heavy Warp Ammo. There's a lot of conflicting thoughts on Warp Ammo, but as a Vanguard, that is just going to spam Charge (Thus making something like Barrier or Fortification unnecessary) I like the Team DPS boost I can give people like Mordin and Tali with Squad warp ammo, obviously I keep Inferno on everything but my SMG.

I agree. Warp Ammo is, imo, pound for pound the best ammo power in the game. On classes that use Pull it becomes seriously crazy (the speed you take down Klixen and Krogan is especially noticable).

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

I agree. Warp Ammo is, imo, pound for pound the best ammo power in the game. On classes that use Pull it becomes seriously crazy (the speed you take down Klixen and Krogan is especially noticable).

I would disagree with that. Inferno ammo is much better unless you go for Sniper 1S1K type. Warp does nothing in close combat, the damage difference is not even close to the CC Inferno offers. This is especially invaluable for CQC classes, I would take squad Inferno (Jacob, Grunt) over Warp ammo any day. Though for Widow snipers Warp is better.

As for the OP, I use Inferno against everything but geth (squad Cryo Ammo/squad Disruptor if I take Zaeed), the LOKI mechs are so weak that Disruptor makes no difference.

Modifié par Kronner, 19 août 2010 - 05:03 .

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

I agree. Warp Ammo is, imo, pound for pound the best ammo power in the game. On classes that use Pull it becomes seriously crazy (the speed you take down Klixen and Krogan is especially noticable).

I would disagree with that. Inferno ammo is much better unless you go for Sniper 1S1K type. Warp does nothing in close combat, the damage difference is not even close to the CC Inferno offers.

You're trading 10% extra damage for the ability to affect barriers, do full damage all at once and double damage against enemies caught in biotics and will function fully against all enemies. To me, that is an acceptable trade off.

I agree that Inferno offers better CC, but on classes that can make maximum use of Warp Ammo, you already have CC sorted

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

You're trading 10% extra damage for the ability to affect barriers, do full damage all at once and double damage against enemies caught in biotics and will function fully against all enemies. To me, that is an acceptable trade off.

I agree that Inferno offers better CC, but on classes that can make maximum use of Warp Ammo, you already have CC sorted

Like I said, it depends, thing is Inferno can be used at all ranges and be effective. Warp ammo is nothing special in close combat. For squad, both Inferno and Cryo are better than Warp ammo. Also, you can get Inferno only if your class has it as one of the core skills or from your squad. You have to take Warp ammo as a bonus talent and with exception of Sentinel and maybe Infiltrator, all classes can use much better bonus talent than Warp ammo.

Modifié par Kronner, 19 août 2010 - 05:12 .

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

You're trading 10% extra damage for the ability to affect barriers, do full damage all at once and double damage against enemies caught in biotics and will function fully against all enemies. To me, that is an acceptable trade off.

I agree that Inferno offers better CC, but on classes that can make maximum use of Warp Ammo, you already have CC sorted

Like I said, it depends, thing is Inferno can be used at all ranges and be effective. Warp ammo is nothing special in close combat.

Well, to be fair, Inferno has no inherent close combat advantage either. It has CC, granted, but as I say - any class that make full use of Warp Ammo isn't really lacking in the regard.

For squad, both Inferno and Cryo are better than Warp ammo.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. I don't think I would pick inferno ammo for a squadmate if the class I was playing didn't have it and Cryo Ammo.... well, it brings with it all the positives and negatives of Cryo Blast, only it prevents you from using a specific power that does defence damage. You may enjoy enemies falling behind cover, out of harm's way... but I don't.

Squad Cryo Ammo is quite good but is not exactly awe-inspiring up to that point. It's main selling point is the double damage boost you get once enemies are frozen... but that's no different to the boost you get when using Warp Ammo on a biotic'd opponent.

Also, you can get Inferno only if your class has it as one of the core skills or from your squad.

That's not a reason why it's better. Less availability is a bad thing, not a good thing.

You have to take Warp ammo as a bonus talent and with exception of Sentinel and maybe Infiltrator, all classes can use much better bonus talent than Warp ammo.

Much better? Hardly. Infiltrators and Engineers have very good reason to take it, as it plugs a gap in their defence busting without the interfering with their class powers, while it's second only to ED for Adept.

I think you're applying overly Vanguard-centric thinking, here Kronner - that class is the only one that doesn't gain that much from it

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

Well, to be fair, Inferno has no inherent close combat advantage either. It has CC, granted, but as I say - any class that make full use of Warp Ammo isn't really lacking in the regard.

No I mean, you can set Inferno on (yours or from squadmate) and be very effective in all ranges. If you take Warp, you are not really close in CQC due to Inferno panic effect.

JaegerBane wrote...I'm not really sure what you mean by this. I don't think I would pick inferno ammo for a squadmate if the class I was playing didn't have it and Cryo Ammo.... well, it brings with it all the positives and negatives of Cryo Blast, only it prevents you from using a specific power that does defence damage. You may enjoy enemies falling behind cover, out of harm's way... but I don't.

Squad Cryo Ammo is quite good but is not exactly awe-inspiring up to that point. It's main selling point is the double damage boost you get once enemies are frozen... but that's no different to the boost you get when using Warp Ammo on a biotic'd opponent.

That's not a reason why it's better. Less availability is a bad thing, not a good thing.

I mean this, if I play Adept, I will use Grunt's squad Inferno instead of mine Heavy Warp Ammo and that leaves me spot for (for example) Energy Drain or Barrier. From my experience, you can easily kill frozen enemies before they fall, your squad does very little damage anyways (certainly less than you, no matter what class). Also, if you play aggressively enemies have no chance to fall out of harms way (save for few rare occassions).
Frozen enemies take more damage and Throwing them around and smashing is so much fun. Warp Ammo is better against Collectors, but even when they lose the barrier they can still fire back, if your squad has Cryo Ammo, they can't.

JaegerBane wrote...Much better? Hardly. Infiltrators and Engineers have very good reason to take it, as it plugs a gap in their defence busting without the interfering with their class powers, while it's second only to ED for Adept.

I think you're applying overly Vanguard-centric thinking, here Kronner - that class is the only one that doesn't gain that much from it

Yes, I may have biased Vanguard view, but I played all classes and with the exception of Widow with Heavy Warp Ammo, I found no benefit for taking Warp ammo instead of using squad Inferno from a squadmate or my own AND taking other bonus talent at the same time.
Engineer with Dominate/Energy Drain/GSB and squad Inferno from Grunt/Jacob is better than Engineer with Heavy Warp ammo (based on my experience of course). For Infiltrator with Widow it is a good choice, I agree.

Modifié par Kronner, 19 août 2010 - 05:49 .

[jwalker]

Kronner wrote...

Yes, I may have biased Vanguard view, but I played all classes and with the exception of Widow with Heavy Warp Ammo, I found no benefit for taking Warp ammo instead of using squad Inferno from a squadmate or my own AND taking other bonus talent at the same time.
Engineer with Dominate/Energy Drain/GSB and squad Inferno from Grunt/Jacob is better than Engineer with Heavy Warp ammo (based on my experience of course). For Infiltrator with Widow it is a good choice, I agree.

I agree. In my last run with my assault sentinel, I took warp ammo as bonus for the disabled collector ship. I ended up regreting that choice, I really missed incendiary rounds, a lot
So, for the collector base I took area reave as bonus and brought along Jacob (unloyal, otherwise useless) with squad incendiary. That felt much, much better.
As for the OP, when facing light mechs and dogs, I use disruptor ammo. Their armor goes down easy and as soon as their health gets hit, they either get stunned or their weapons overheat. If I use incendiary, it's almost frustrating.

Of course, if you're up against a YMIR mech, that's different. Those are heavily armored, so incendiary should be used there.

I remember when I installed the latest patch ( the one fixing the ammo squad power behavior ). First mission to replay ? Saving the crates with Zaeed and Grunt !!!

Modifié par jwalker, 19 août 2010 - 06:21 .

[Alamar2078]

Against Loki or Fenris Mechs I like Tungsten as you get full damage against Armor and Health. Inferno isn't bad but IIRC mechs take reduced damage to health via fire.



Against most Geth it's a no-brainer .. disruptor.



Against YMIR or Geth Primes I like to play games. When shields are active I like Disruptor. When they get down to armor I like to switch over to Tungsten or Inferno. Once they're in health you've got them with crowd control skills. Tungsten does good damage to health ... if you want crowd control ammo just switch back to Disruptor.

[termokanden]

First of all, I'd hoped someone had at least read my points on Warp Ammo and tried to prove me wrong.  Look above if you want to argue against using Inferno or Tungsten instead.

Ah might as well reiterate:

You're trading 10% extra damage for the ability to affect barriers, do full damage all at once and double damage against enemies caught in biotics and will function fully against all enemies. To me, that is an acceptable trade off.

I agree that Inferno offers better CC, but on classes that can make maximum use of Warp Ammo, you already have CC sorted

Compare Heavy Warp and Tungsten. 20% damage difference. Most people are going to use them as general-purpose ammo. My claim is that by the time you even encounter one enemy with a barrier, the 20% difference will have pulled you so far ahead that Warp can't catch up. Furthermore, I always have at least one Warp in the party that I use on barriers, so Collectors really are a non-issue.

As for extra damage against targets affected by biotics, I consider that pretty much pointless, particularly if I'm playing a soldier.

If you really want to shoot people affected by biotics or perhaps have an edge against Praetorians, I can understand Warp Ammo. As general purpose ammo I consider it slightly worse than Tungsten, but only very slightly. Inferno I think is less general-purpose due to synthetics being "resistant to fire", whatever that means, but it's probably best against organics.

Alamar2078 wrote...

Against Loki or Fenris Mechs I like Tungsten as you get full damage against Armor and Health. Inferno isn't bad but IIRC mechs take reduced damage to health via fire.

I'm trying to find out if they are immune or just take reduced damage. I can't read this anywhere. Does anyone know? And if they take reduced damage, how big is the reduction?

Against YMIR or Geth Primes I like to play games. When shields are active I like Disruptor. When they get down to armor I like to switch over to Tungsten or Inferno. Once they're in health you've got them with crowd control skills. Tungsten does good damage to health ... if you want crowd control ammo just switch back to Disruptor.

Same here. On my soldier I'd start with Disruptor then switch to Tungsten. I tend to snipe their heads too. The explosion is worth it.

Modifié par termokanden, 19 août 2010 - 11:50 .

[Athenau]

Inferno is a DOT on health so in practice both warp and tungsten will outperform inferno on health (you need the target to burn at least three seconds to get the full 60%), and warp is only slightly behind on armor.

[termokanden]

Indeed, and usually you'd just hit them more instead of waiting 3 seconds. That said, I still believe Tungsten is ever so slightly better than Heavy Warp as general-purpose ammo.



At least my experience from Insanity is armor and shields everywhere, barriers not so much. Perhaps on Illium there were enough barriers for Warp Ammo to take over, but I'm not convinced.

[Athenau]

I like tungsten too, but warp looks cool. PEW PEW PEW.

[termokanden]

Good point. I have carelessly left the PEW PEW factor out of my comparisons. Won't happen again.



I miss High Explosive X, I really do...

[Athenau]

Yeah ME1's weapon customization is so much better than ME2's. I heard they're bringing it back in 3 though, here's hoping.