313 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

I think, perhaps, a better use of the game keep tracking of Hawke's "personality" would be in regards to how NPCs react to you. Maybe Bob will get upset that Hawke is sarcastic all the time, but get worried when Hawke starts being serious. Or maybe Sarah is annoyed by Hawke at first by how serious he is, but then tells him that she likes his newfound sense of humor when Hawke starts becoming a bit of a jokester. That would be glorious.

[Collider]

JoePinasi1989 wrote...

Collider wrote...

How, exactly?

As I said in my previous post, because I am not directly choosing the tone Hawke takes in those instances, even when there are multiple variations. Why not just let the player choose? I don't view the voice acting as restricting roleplaying, btw. Maybe "restricts" roleplaying was bad wording, because as you said - the whole tone thing is basically new to the series. However, I prefer being able to choose directly, instead of the game assuming a personality from my character that I may not have envsioned in my head.

Yes - it's true, Hawke is not really my character in actuality and entirety, but if we're going to have multiple variations of the same sentence (the difference being the tone), then I'd like to choose it myself and instead of the game choosing it on what may be an unwarranted assumption.

So maybe it would be better to say that I do not feel it employs the full potential for roleplaying that the game has by virtue of having those differently voiced lines on the disc, and not letting the player choose which one to have Hawke say in some instances.

You're bound for disappointment. I am truly sorry.

Ultimately I don't think it's going to be a big deal, because as Gaider IIRC said, we're not going to suddenly have the game force Hawke to punch Bethany in the face because the game thinks he's been a bit of a jerk for the past hour. 

[Collider]

JoePinasi1989 wrote...

Collider wrote...

I think, perhaps, a better use of the game keep tracking of Hawke's "personality" would be in regards to how NPCs react to you. Maybe Bob will get upset that Hawke is sarcastic all the time, but get worried when Hawke starts being serious. Or maybe Sarah is annoyed by Hawke at first by how serious he is, but then tells him that she likes his newfound sense of humor when Hawke starts becoming a bit of a jokester. That would be glorious.

Wasn't this present from the beggining? I'm pretty sure it was... I could be wrong.

No, not really. You could gain and or lose approval from party members like Alistair depending on if you were joking or serious, but the game did not "track" the Warden's personality - there was no meter of how sarcastic the Wardens has been. It was a case by case basis - Alistair did not notice that I had my Warden be grumpy at first and then slowly developed her into a more amiable fellow. He never said "Wow, I didn't like you at first, you were a grumpster then, but now you're much more friendly!"

[Collider]

Yes, exactly, you didn't have this in Origins, but now we do. Unless they've dismissed this possibility, I don't see why it wouldn't occur.

Unless I'm mistaken, all they've said is that they are tracking personality for what Hawke says, but not really for the perception that the party members have of Hawke.

[David Gaider]

Collider wrote...
So maybe it would be better to say that I do not feel it employs the full potential for roleplaying that the game has by virtue of having those differently voiced lines on the disc, and not letting the player choose which one to have Hawke say in some instances.

But you are choosing... you're choosing throughout the game. Allowing you to select your tone on those action lines simply isn't an option in the interface. There just isn't enough room since every single choice would require three different entries... a simple binary choice would have filled up the Origins interface, and that's ignoring the possibility of any questions.

The fact that there are those extra lines is designed to prevent you from reverting to a neutral tone every time you take an action of some kind. It's meant to be reactive to what you've been doing in the game so far, and considering you get personality choices throughout the entire game it's not really a restriction on how you act and doesn't lock you into anything. The idea that having this extra flavor is somehow restricting because you don't get to select that instance-- even when you are selecting your choice and motivation-- when the only realistic alternative would be to not have the choice at all boggles my mind a little.

I'm not sure what you're picturing. It could be that you'll simply have to see this in action, but in my mind this is the only way we can have a voiced protaganist and still allow you to roleplay your character by establishing a personality throughout the game.

[David Gaider]

Collider wrote...
I think, perhaps, a better use of the game keep tracking of Hawke's "personality" would be in regards to how NPCs react to you. Maybe Bob will get upset that Hawke is sarcastic all the time, but get worried when Hawke starts being serious. Or maybe Sarah is annoyed by Hawke at first by how serious he is, but then tells him that she likes his newfound sense of humor when Hawke starts becoming a bit of a jokester. That would be glorious.

Characters do react to your tones... when you select it. When you select an action, they react to the action your taking but rarely the tone itself. That said, on occasion people will reference your personality based on your dominant tone. If your dominant tone is, for instance, a humorous or charming one it could easily be inferred that you're someone who likes to joke around a lot.

Modifié par David Gaider, 21 août 2010 - 06:38 .

[Saibh]

David Gaider wrote...

Collider wrote...
I think, perhaps, a better use of the game keep tracking of Hawke's "personality" would be in regards to how NPCs react to you. Maybe Bob will get upset that Hawke is sarcastic all the time, but get worried when Hawke starts being serious. Or maybe Sarah is annoyed by Hawke at first by how serious he is, but then tells him that she likes his newfound sense of humor when Hawke starts becoming a bit of a jokester. That would be glorious.

Characters do react to your tones... when you select it. When you select an action, they react to the action your taking but rarely the tone itself. That said, on occasion people will reference your personality based on your dominant tone. If your dominant tone is, for instance, a humorous or charming one it could easily be inferred that you're someone who likes to joke around a lot.

Yes! That's what I was hoping to hear...hmm...do they recognize personality changes, though? It seems pretty abstract, and I wouldn't expect it to be there, but it'd be pretty damn awesome.

[David Gaider]

Saibh wrote...
Yes! That's what I was hoping to hear...hmm...do they recognize personality changes, though? It seems pretty abstract, and I wouldn't expect it to be there, but it'd be pretty damn awesome.

No, that is indeed a little abstract, like you said-- at best they comment on your dominant personality at the time that the reference is needed for their dialogue. Beyond that their approval changes based on your choices at the time you made them, just as in Origins.

[Collider]

David Gaider wrote...

Collider wrote...
I think, perhaps, a better use of the game keep tracking of Hawke's "personality" would be in regards to how NPCs react to you. Maybe Bob will get upset that Hawke is sarcastic all the time, but get worried when Hawke starts being serious. Or maybe Sarah is annoyed by Hawke at first by how serious he is, but then tells him that she likes his newfound sense of humor when Hawke starts becoming a bit of a jokester. That would be glorious.

Characters do react to your tones... when you select it. When you select an action, they react to the action your taking but rarely the tone itself. That said, on occasion people will reference your personality based on your dominant tone. If your dominant tone is, for instance, a humorous or charming one it could easily be inferred that you're someone who likes to joke around a lot.

So, x party member may then conceivably refer to Hawke as a jokester, correct - because the game has tracked Hawke's dominant tone as tending towards the more humorous lines? If so, this sounds great. And moving in the right direction.

[Arrtis]

Like you use to be a joker but now you have gotten serious...I respect that.

[Collider]

David Gaider wrote...

Collider wrote...
So maybe it would be better to say that I do not feel it employs the full potential for roleplaying that the game has by virtue of having those differently voiced lines on the disc, and not letting the player choose which one to have Hawke say in some instances.

But you are choosing... you're choosing throughout the game. Allowing you to select your tone on those action lines simply isn't an option in the interface. There just isn't enough room since every single choice would require three different entries... a simple binary choice would have filled up the Origins interface, and that's ignoring the possibility of any questions.

The fact that there are those extra lines is designed to prevent you from reverting to a neutral tone every time you take an action of some kind. It's meant to be reactive to what you've been doing in the game so far, and considering you get personality choices throughout the entire game it's not really a restriction on how you act and doesn't lock you into anything. The idea that having this extra flavor is somehow restricting because you don't get to select that instance-- even when you are selecting your choice and motivation-- when the only realistic alternative would be to not have the choice at all boggles my mind a little.

It seems you're saying that allowing us to directly choose the tone for those "action lines" would be in a technical sense (as in resources, engine, etc) impossible, implausible, or impractical? That's a little hard to conceive given that the game already allows us 5-6 choices on what to have Hawke to say in the conversations. Unless there's more than 6 personality types.

I think this is probably a matter of having to see it for myself, yes. Thanks for responding to me.

The idea that having this extra flavor is somehow restricting because you don't get to select that instance-- even when you are selecting
your choice and motivation-- when the only realistic alternative would
be to not have the choice at all boggles my mind a little.

Did I not just say that "restricts roleplaying" could perhaps have been a bad choice of words?

I'm not sure what you're picturing. It could be that you'll simply
have to see this in action, but in my mind this is the only way we can
have a voiced protaganist and still allow you to roleplay your character by establishing a personality throughout the game.

Mass Effect seems to allow a decent level of roleplaying without tracking Shepard's personality beyond something abstract like paragon and renegade. Not as much as DA:O had, but it did the job.

[Collider]

JoePinasi1989 wrote...

Collider wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Collider wrote...
I think, perhaps, a better use of the game keep tracking of Hawke's "personality" would be in regards to how NPCs react to you. Maybe Bob will get upset that Hawke is sarcastic all the time, but get worried when Hawke starts being serious. Or maybe Sarah is annoyed by Hawke at first by how serious he is, but then tells him that she likes his newfound sense of humor when Hawke starts becoming a bit of a jokester. That would be glorious.

Characters do react to your tones... when you select it. When you select an action, they react to the action your taking but rarely the tone itself. That said, on occasion people will reference your personality based on your dominant tone. If your dominant tone is, for instance, a humorous or charming one it could easily be inferred that you're someone who likes to joke around a lot.

So, x party member may then conceivably refer to Hawke as a jokester, correct - because the game has tracked Hawke's dominant tone as tending towards the more humorous lines? If so, this sounds great. And moving in the right direction.

Actually the more I think about it I realize that this sort of conversations regarding personality changes would reenact old mistakes. Trite talks about how you've "turned to the dark side booo, yer evil now"...

You believe KOTOR had that and it was a mistake? I remember Bastila saying it, but I gathered that she says it to all PCs, light side or dark side, because she supposedly senses darkness in them.

[Arrtis]

You are darth***** in ***** so i think that is why...also she is connected to you by the *****.

Well anyway I think after playing the game you will enjoy it.

[Collider]

You're reading it wrong.

I remember reading dev posts on the old mass effect forums about ME2 and picturing what they said pretty different from how things actually were. It had seemed, for example, that ME2 would have a DA:O like influence system, when that was hardly the actual case. I suppose it hard sometimes for the devs to relay what the game is because the fans they are talking to don't have the same stuff to look at as reference or example. In the end there will always be that divide.

So I don't blame the devs or myself/the fans if there is ample misinterpretation.

Modifié par Collider, 21 août 2010 - 06:57 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

[quote]JoePinasi1989 wrote...

[quote]
I'm not sure what you're picturing. It could be that you'll simply
have to see this in action, but in my mind this is the only way we can
have a voiced protaganist and still allow you to roleplay your character by establishing a personality throughout the game.[/quote]
Mass Effect seems to allow a decent level of roleplaying without tracking Shepard's personality beyond something abstract like paragon and renegade. Not as much as DA:O had, but it did the job.

[/quote]

You're reading it wrong.

[/quote]

Oh, don't say nice things about Mass Effect on these forums.  Apparently it's equivalent to the Great Satan around here.  Funnily enough, fewer people on the ME boards seem to take such umbrage with Dragon Age.

Personally, this change in VO reminds me of when Mass Effect's dialogue system was first announced and everyone went "WHAA???"  We were all confused and worried because we had no frame of reference for what it would be like.  And when it was implemented, it (mostly) worked.  Sure I still have some issues with ME's dialogue system, but it is what it is and it mostly pulled off.  I feel the same thing is true with nuancing Hawke's tone based on previous dialogue and character choices.

At any rate, it might avoid some of the tone inconsistencies of Mass Effect.  Even if it doesn't work 100% of the time for your vision of your own Hawke, at least the tone will be consistent with previous character actions.  I'm thinking of how in ME2 it's impossible to talk to Jacob without coming off like a sexual predator, or how it's impossible to pick even reasonable Renegade options in most of ME1 without sounding like a COMPLETE ******.

[Saibh]

David Gaider wrote...

Saibh wrote...
Yes! That's what I was hoping to hear...hmm...do they recognize personality changes, though? It seems pretty abstract, and I wouldn't expect it to be there, but it'd be pretty damn awesome.

No, that is indeed a little abstract, like you said-- at best they comment on your dominant personality at the time that the reference is needed for their dialogue. Beyond that their approval changes based on your choices at the time you made them, just as in Origins.

There must be a lot of different personalities...the voice work...holy cow...

[Collider]

@Sable: I have to agree that that was one of my major criticisms with ME's dialog system. Knowing the tone beforehand that Hawke takes will stop a lot of those problems from happening. An event like Jacob, for instance, may not happen at all in DA2 because the devs pretty much said they made an effort to make the romance triggers more obvious - probably by designating them with some sort of icon or other label. 

Modifié par Collider, 21 août 2010 - 07:00 .

[David Gaider]

Collider wrote...
@Sable: I have to agree that that was one of my major criticisms with ME's dialog system. Knowing the tone beforehand that Hawke takes will stop a lot of those problems from happening. An event like Jacob, for instance, may not happen at all in DA2 because the devs pretty much said they made an effort to make the romance triggers more obvious - probably by designating them with some sort of icon or other label. 

Actually, speaking from a writing perspective the one thing I like most about the icons is that they don't require us to impart both intent and tone in a single paraphrase. This means that the tone doesn't have to be blatantly obvious... which when it comes to romantic lines can be a little awkward.

So we can have a paraphrase like "Stay here and talk" and attach the romance icon to it-- letting you know that selecting that line means your intentions are romantic and that they will continue the path down that line, as opposed to us writing something more blatant like "Stay here and let's do it. On the floor."

Not that this wouldn't work for some people, I guess, but you know...

[Collider]

David Gaider wrote...

Collider wrote...
@Sable: I have to agree that that was one of my major criticisms with ME's dialog system. Knowing the tone beforehand that Hawke takes will stop a lot of those problems from happening. An event like Jacob, for instance, may not happen at all in DA2 because the devs pretty much said they made an effort to make the romance triggers more obvious - probably by designating them with some sort of icon or other label. 

Actually, speaking from a writing perspective the one thing I like most about the icons is that they don't require us to impart both intent and tone in a single paraphrase. This means that the tone doesn't have to be blatantly obvious... which when it comes to romantic lines can be a little awkward.

So we can have a paraphrase like "Stay here and talk" and attach the romance icon to it-- letting you know that selecting that line means your intentions are romantic and that they will continue the path down that line, as opposed to us writing something more blatant like "Stay here and let's do it. On the floor."

Not that this wouldn't work for some people, I guess, but you know...

Thanks David. This is a godsend. No more accidental romances!

[Sable Rhapsody]

Collider wrote...

@Sable: I have to agree that that was one of my major criticisms with ME's dialog system. Knowing the tone beforehand that Hawke takes will stop a lot of those problems from happening. An event like Jacob, for instance, may not happen at all in DA2 because the devs pretty much said they made an effort to make the romance triggers more obvious - probably by designating them with some sort of icon or other label. 

The other benefit to a responsive tone system with the dialogue is if you run into situations where there are no good dialogue options for your particular PC.  I have yet to come across a BioWare game that can always accomodate my PC; most of them have enough personality quirks where somewhere along the line, I'll look at the tree and say, "Well, none of those is what she'd say.  Poo."  I've had less trouble with this in PS:T and KOTOR II.  

Having the responsive tone system based on prior roleplaying makes picking some of those less-than-ideal dialogue choices a little more palatable.  Suppose the game's plot rails--and there will be plot rails--force me to help some dude in the same way that you're forced to be a Warden in DA:O, and all of my dialogue options are some form of agreeing.  Even if I feel my character would disagree, I can still run with it;  hopefully the options end up sounding more reluctant or more belligerent based on my previous roleplaying decisions.