202 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistress Tasharra]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Mistress Tasharra wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

Mistress Tasharra wrote...

The point being is that, the story is about Thedas, not any one character. My character shall be different than yours, or the poster two posts up, or my best friend's, or your best friends. That is something that makes Bioware's games great. I think you exagerate the difficulity of having continuity throughout Thedas. The setting is quite open. It'd be quite easy to create a Dragon Age 3 or 4 where the news and events of Fereldan or the Free Marches hasn't even reached their ears yet.

That's just it though.  Do you really want DA games to have almost no ties whatsoever?  To me, the series is cheapened if our decisions don't really make a difference in the end.  How can you get attached to NPCs you know you'll never see again?

With a canon, they can tie the games together directly and really make the series interesting.

Who said the Dragon Age games were a series? Last time I checked, not every game based in Faerun were connected, or every game based in the Star Wars universe.

Thedas is a world, and maybe not even an entire world. How do we know? I would very much love to experiance the many places of it. We can see the future or past, or the present. Some games can be connected, some don't have to be. Just because one game takes place in the same world as another doesn't mean they have any bearing on eachother.

But to be fair, that has been a spoken goal for bioware when it comes to Thedas, your actions do change the world. Even in future games.

Of course, which I love the concept for. That doesn't mean they require a specific canon. I'm sure Bioware is innovative enough to avoid such a thing.

Modifié par Mistress Tasharra, 19 août 2010 - 11:15 .

[Roth]

I agree with OP. One day Bioware is going to have to make some of the choices and characters in DAO and DA2 canon, for the sake of the story. Otherwise each new installment will only have rumors and short dialogues about what you did in the previous game. To many choices will make the Dragon Age universe a haystack of confusion and multiple versions, and finding somekind of truth in it will be impossible. Everything and nothing will be true. Is Alistair king? Did the Warden die? Is the Chantry in ruins?

In DA2 you will decide the faith of the Chantry and if BW won't make one of the outcomes canon, I don't see any other way of resolving this problem other than resorting to making prequels or games set on entirely different continents, that don't have anything in common with DA other than the name.

[Taint Master]

Roth wrote...

I agree with OP. One day Bioware is going to have to make some of the choices and characters in DAO and DA2 canon, for the sake of the story. Otherwise each new installment will only have rumors and short dialogues about what you did in the previous game. To many choices will make the Dragon Age universe a haystack of confusion and multiple versions, and finding somekind of truth in it will be impossible. Everything and nothing will be true. Is Alistair king? Did the Warden die? Is the Chantry in ruins?
In DA2 you will decide the faith of the Chantry and if BW won't make one of the outcomes canon, I don't see any other way of resolving this problem other than resorting to making prequels or games set on entirely different continents, that don't have anything in common with DA other than the name.

Thank you!  Finally someone gets it! :D:D

[Herr Uhl]

Roth wrote...

I agree with OP. One day Bioware is going to have to make some of the choices and characters in DAO and DA2 canon, for the sake of the story. Otherwise each new installment will only have rumors and short dialogues about what you did in the previous game. To many choices will make the Dragon Age universe a haystack of confusion and multiple versions, and finding somekind of truth in it will be impossible. Everything and nothing will be true. Is Alistair king? Did the Warden die? Is the Chantry in ruins?
In DA2 you will decide the faith of the Chantry and if BW won't make one of the outcomes canon, I don't see any other way of resolving this problem other than resorting to making prequels or games set on entirely different continents, that don't have anything in common with DA other than the name.

I see this as a god thing.

[Ayanna Nyx]

I think if they removed the character creator it would be a major mistake, I for one tend to be put off by playing games with set characters, not always but when I hear of games (Oblivion, Mass Effect, Dragon Age etc) that allow you to build your own, then I am more inclined to get it.

[C9316]

Nope I'm not to keen on a canon character in a RPG. It ruins immersion for me because no matter how much I make my character custom I'll usually be reminded that my design of the character is 'incorrect' especially in this case of hawke's family. if they make Garrett hawke(A white guy) canon what's gonna happen if I make a black character?

[Stazro]

Taint Master wrote...

 Even KOTOR has a canon story.

Well, even Kotor had a canon story, but still you could customize your Revan like you wanted to.

[swirlwind]

Roth wrote...

I agree with OP. One day Bioware is going to have to make some of the choices and characters in DAO and DA2 canon, for the sake of the story. Otherwise each new installment will only have rumors and short dialogues about what you did in the previous game. To many choices will make the Dragon Age universe a haystack of confusion and multiple versions, and finding somekind of truth in it will be impossible. Everything and nothing will be true. Is Alistair king? Did the Warden die? Is the Chantry in ruins?

In DA2 you will decide the faith of the Chantry and if BW won't make one of the outcomes canon, I don't see any other way of resolving this problem other than resorting to making prequels or games set on entirely different continents, that don't have anything in common with DA other than the name.

That's a possibility, for sure. Of course, at this point we enter the conceptual level: what is Dragon Age? Is it just the world of Thedas and whatever's in it? Because in that case they can do whatever they like and never decide on a canon. That's actually my preference. I'm not sure it's important to have an established "truth" about what happened in Dragon Age. I think it's much more interesting to have different player versions of what happened, of course within the boundaries that the writers allow us. 

I mean, we've already seen this in the DLCs. In The Darkspawn Chronicles, the Warden didn't survive the Joining and things happened very differently than what DA:O tells us. In Leliana's Song, her background was quite different from what she told us in DA:O. It's already been stated that in DA2, the whole narrative technique revolves around the legend of Hawke and what actually happened. Dragon Age allows for all of these possibilities without trampling player choice. I think it's inspired, not confusing.

[Anacronian Stryx]

I always gets dumbfounded when players actually advocates having less choice..

[Pedro Costa]

As much as I love Garrett and will always play with him (ASSUMING his in-game model will closely resemble his Destiny appearance), scrapping the creator is really, really bad.

I realise there are people who want to change their character's features, and it's always a nice feature to have.

[Taint Master]

swirlwind wrote...

Roth wrote...

I agree with OP. One day Bioware is going to have to make some of the choices and characters in DAO and DA2 canon, for the sake of the story. Otherwise each new installment will only have rumors and short dialogues about what you did in the previous game. To many choices will make the Dragon Age universe a haystack of confusion and multiple versions, and finding somekind of truth in it will be impossible. Everything and nothing will be true. Is Alistair king? Did the Warden die? Is the Chantry in ruins?

In DA2 you will decide the faith of the Chantry and if BW won't make one of the outcomes canon, I don't see any other way of resolving this problem other than resorting to making prequels or games set on entirely different continents, that don't have anything in common with DA other than the name.

That's a possibility, for sure. Of course, at this point we enter the conceptual level: what is Dragon Age? Is it just the world of Thedas and whatever's in it? Because in that case they can do whatever they like and never decide on a canon. That's actually my preference. I'm not sure it's important to have an established "truth" about what happened in Dragon Age. I think it's much more interesting to have different player versions of what happened, of course within the boundaries that the writers allow us.

You're not looking at the bigger picture though.  Dragon Age is an IP.  One that is gaining a considerable following.  There is potential for more books, games, comics and maybe even movies down the line.  In order for that to happen though, the DA world has to have a foundation.  How can they establish official IP lore if there is no official story?

[swirlwind]

Taint Master wrote...

You're not looking at the bigger picture though.  Dragon Age is an IP.  One that is gaining a considerable following.  There is potential for more books, games, comics and maybe even movies down the line.  In order for that to happen though, the DA world has to have a foundation.  How can they establish official IP lore if there is no official story?

There already are DA games, books and comics. I'm not saying all lore needs to be up to the players to decide, that would be impossible. And it's not what they're doing, anyway. However, reducing player choice isn't the way to go, either. The DA world has a foundation, it did before DA:O even came out. Invalidating player choice by presenting a canonised version of the DA:O Warden or indeed DA2 Hawke is not necessary for the IP to be successful, nor is it desirable at least to me, as a player.

[Merllle]

Taint Master wrote...

Lets face it, Garret Hawke is one of the coolest designs in Dragon Age, up there with Duncan and Morrigan.  I don't think there's a point in letting us make our own 'Hawkes' anymore.

David Gaider said he wanted Dragon Age to have a recognizable protagonist.  Why not just make him the canon character and dump the character creator altogether?  They could spend the development money on more content/dialogue instead and make the story richer.

DAO was our chance to make our own characters so why not make DA2 officially about Garrett?

You've got to be kidding me. I am sorry, but I don't agree with that one single bit. One of BioWare's most loved strenghts has always been their capacity of delivering a full fledged game and story where you create your character and, effectively, play with him/her your own way and follow the story accordingly. That suggestion would go against everything that has been made until now and, despite all the marketing attempts, in my opinion, would not be a positive change at all. Doing that with a newly created franchising? That would seriously disappoint me, but okay. With an already running franshising? No. The Hawke of the trailer was insanely awesome, no doubt about that, but giving us the freedom of making our own character is a mark of BioWare that have lead me to buy their games since ancient times and play them over and over again. The story will most likely be rich already - and you can play with canon Hawke if you wish.

The day BioWare takes away my chance of playing with amazing strong women characters is the day I will consider what the hell am I doing in front of the monitor.

So, from me, No.

Mistress Tasharra wrote...

How many ways would you like me to say it?
No.
Hell no.
Take your pick.

Between this and your post about "how the only way DA3 could be is if it were an MMO", I've decided there is something very wrong with you.

Hawke is canon already, anyway. Hawke exists. I think she will be interesting to play. To see how her
story unfolds. As much as I dislike predefined and voiced protagonists.
There's a reason games like these are called a cRPG. User creation of
the character is important.

And by the way, people did rage over
KotOR being given a canon. Revan will always be a woman to me, no
matter what they say. Always.

^This.
Amen.

Modifié par Merllle, 19 août 2010 - 11:58 .

[Roth]

Taint Master wrote...
Thank you!  Finally someone gets it! :D:D

'Twas my pleasure

swirlwind wrote...
That's a possibility, for sure. Of course, at this point we enter the conceptual level: what is Dragon Age? Is it just the world of Thedas and whatever's in it? Because in that case they can do whatever they like and never decide on a canon. That's actually my preference. I'm not sure it's important to have an established "truth" about what happened in Dragon Age. I think it's much more interesting to have different player versions of what happened, of course within the boundaries that the writers allow us. 

I mean, we've already seen this in the DLCs. In The Darkspawn Chronicles, the Warden didn't survive the Joining and things happened very differently than what DA:O tells us. In Leliana's Song, her background was quite different from what she told us in DA:O. It's already been stated that in DA2, the whole narrative technique revolves around the legend of Hawke and what actually happened. Dragon Age allows for all of these possibilities without trampling player choice. I think it's inspired, not confusing.

Fair enough. I get your point, but it made my think about any players who are new to the franchise. DA2 is going to be of a massive scale where your actions decide the faith of the entire continent and there will be different ways of doing this.
How will it be possible to tell a new player what has happened so far? Okay, origins is pretty straigthforward. There was a Blight. Your Warden saved us all and then lived happily ever after. Or he didn't. Then there was the Architect. You allowed him to continue his research, which led to the Darkspawn becoming more intelligent and independent. Or they didn't. If you live in the Free Marches the rumours about what happened during the Blight can be very different.
But then there is DA2. This is entirely different, because the Blight affected only Ferelden, while this game will tell us what happens to the entire continent, because the Chantry is everywhere. What will they tell any new players who might want to get into the third installement? They can't just ignore the Chantry and continue like nothing has happened. Unless they make some things canon the alternative versions will be to much for a single game. The choices made in DA2 will simply be to gigantic.

[C9316]

Taint Master wrote...

Lets face it, Garret Hawke is one of the coolest designs in Dragon Age, up there with Duncan and Morrigan.  I don't think there's a point in letting us make our own 'Hawkes' anymore.

David Gaider said he wanted Dragon Age to have a recognizable protagonist.  Why not just make him the canon character and dump the character creator altogether?  They could spend the development money on more content/dialogue instead and make the story richer.

DAO was our chance to make our own characters so why not make DA2 officially about Garrett?

The Illusive Facepalm.

[Herr Uhl]

There will be a default pre-game. Probably something akin to when you choose an Orlesian warden in Awakenings.



And I have a nagging suspicion that the chantry will fall pretty much no matter what we do in the game.

[swirlwind]

Roth wrote...

Fair enough. I get your point, but it made my think about any players who are new to the franchise. DA2 is going to be of a massive scale where your actions decide the faith of the entire continent and there will be different ways of doing this.
How will it be possible to tell a new player what has happened so far? Okay, origins is pretty straigthforward. There was a Blight. Your Warden saved us all and then lived happily ever after. Or he didn't. Then there was the Architect. You allowed him to continue his research, which led to the Darkspawn becoming more intelligent and independent. Or they didn't. If you live in the Free Marches the rumours about what happened during the Blight can be very different.
But then there is DA2. This is entirely different, because the Blight affected only Ferelden, while this game will tell us what happens to the entire continent, because the Chantry is everywhere. What will they tell any new players who might want to get into the third installement? They can't just ignore the Chantry and continue like nothing has happened. Unless they make some things canon the alternative versions will be to much for a single game. The choices made in DA2 will simply be to gigantic.

I'm not sure how this problem is solved by establishing Garrett Hawke as the canon, unless choice will be taken away from the player altogether. In that case, the story would be better told as a book or a movie, not a game in which the player is in control. In any case, this is the kind of problem better suited for the writers to consider, not players. I'm sure they have a plan to make the game accessible to new audience as well, in fact Mike Laidlaw as much as confirmed it in a recent interview. One of the reasons why Hawke is from Lothering is to show the player what the Blight did.

My point is, if the writers weren't interested in following up with the choices they allow the players to make, why would they present us with those choices to begin with? 

[syllogi]

Why alienate even more potential consumers by taking away the little choice they're given in DA2?



You find Garrett Hawke to be awesome, but I'm sure there are many more people who hate the name, don't want to play as a guy, want to give the character a darker skintone, don't want a beard, etc...



As far as establishing canon, it will be easy enough to write books or new games mentioning the Champion of Kirkwall, Hawke, without having to go into detail about gender or profession.



They're not throwing away the character creator after announcing that we do have choice in how we shape Hawke, so all of this is idle chatter. It's just sad that some people are not only content to have choice taken away in an RPG, they want even less control over the story. Whatever happened to imagination?

[B3taMaxxx]

TeenZombie wrote...

Why alienate even more potential consumers by taking away the little choice they're given in DA2?

 You say this without having played the game? I haven't a clue, much less yourself, as to how much 'choice' we will have.

[syllogi]

B3taMaxxx wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Why alienate even more potential consumers by taking away the little choice they're given in DA2?

 You say this without having played the game? I haven't a clue, much less yourself, as to how much 'choice' we will have.

I'm talking solely about character creation, compared to Origins.  Yes, even without playing the game, I am able to discern that I cannot be an elf or a dwarf.  And I'm not even psychic!!!  

Modifié par TeenZombie, 19 août 2010 - 12:38 .

[Herr Uhl]

B3taMaxxx wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Why alienate even more potential consumers by taking away the little choice they're given in DA2?

 You say this without having played the game? I haven't a clue, much less yourself, as to how much 'choice' we will have.

When it comes to customization of the protagonist. It is human, and from one background.

They have cut on the choices there.

[Brother3Wright]

Well, Bioware has made cannon with it. Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall. That's all they need to reference, big major plot points, yes but that's all built in already. If you take the choice out of it then what's the point of playing the story and making choices? Might as well be a Final Fantasy clone at that point because any choices you make don't really matter. If you're going to make that one take on the protagonist cannon then you should really make ever decision and line of dialog cannon too.

As for growing complexity down the line, here's the thing; they've already stated that Mass Effect 3 has a massive amount of variables built into it just to accommodate the two games that came before it. This is all in the style of the game though, and after the third game Shepard's story will be over. The major plot points, like big boss battles, are cannon in the world. Just like the Warden stopped the blight, there it's cannon. And then they can start a new series of games based in the same world that don't have to have all that complexity built into them. You're argument seems to be based on the fact that if you don't predefine every detail it somehow makes the world less real. It's a point that can't be denied, except for that fact that part of the core game play design is that the user is defining those details. The major points don't change, but the little, and sometimes medium and kida big things in between do. The point then, is that by allowing the player to define those things it actually makes it more real to them. It gives them the sense of power to shape the world.

Now what happens when they move on from Hawke's story right? Once it's all said and done, just like above, you don't need to retell Hawke's story, its' already been told. Hit the big points that the player doesn't have control over, the major story points, and you don't ruin the cannon, but you still allow the player to have 'their' story told, just for them.

(edit) Bioware is also being crafty in the way they're using a framed narrative to tell Hawke's story. By using the framed narrative they get to go back at any point and say "Wait, that's not how it happened"

Modifié par Brother3Wright, 19 août 2010 - 12:53 .

[SeanAuditore]

BW has already said they want to make dragon age an entire franchise. To do so, you eventually have to have a canon. I don't see a problem with a canon. It's just like a movie, you don't get to choose but people still enjoy them. The customization and stuff are seen as alternate plots. If you customize garrett hawke, that's alright, that's you, and yours is an alternative storyline. Your storyline. There's nothing wrong with a canon.



Even if there was no canon they let you choose your choices and load your previous save games, Dragon Age can only possibly take place in 100 years, since an "Age" consists of 100 years. It can't go on for long without a canon, and the franchise will have to stop somewhere early if they don't establish a canon.

[AlexXIV]

Oblivious wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

ME doesn't have a canon and there's 3 standard games, 1 spin-off, 3 books, 2 comics and it works. They simply ignore stuff from the games and don't mention them

LOL!  You think that's a good thing?

Yes, imposing a canon would make a LOT of people angry. What would be the point in choices if there's a canon!? It'll just be another crappy action adventure game.

And besides, there's a lot of people that prefer to play as a female

People didn't get mad over KOTOR having a canon story.  I don't see the big deal.

People didn't get mad over Revan being light-side. ALOT of women did get mad that Revan was a confirmed male. They got so mad that the Exile in KOTOR 2 was female. And that made alot of male players mad because the female version had even more bugs than the male version.

Point is: yes, people got mad with Lucas Arts:pinched: Revan had a mask for a reason Maker-damn them!

Star Wars always has canon, and even their canon is subject to change. How could they even have so many books, movies and games without canon?

[Brother3Wright]

Fair enough. I get your point, but it made my think about any players who are new to the franchise. DA2 is going to be of a massive scale where your actions decide the faith of the entire continent and there will be different ways of doing this.
How will it be possible to tell a new player what has happened so far? Okay, origins is pretty straigthforward. There was a Blight. Your Warden saved us all and then lived happily ever after. Or he didn't. Then there was the Architect. You allowed him to continue his research, which led to the Darkspawn becoming more intelligent and independent. Or they didn't. If you live in the Free Marches the rumours about what happened during the Blight can be very different.
But then there is DA2. This is entirely different, because the Blight affected only Ferelden, while this game will tell us what happens to the entire continent, because the Chantry is everywhere. What will they tell any new players who might want to get into the third installement? They can't just ignore the Chantry and continue like nothing has happened. Unless they make some things canon the alternative versions will be to much for a single game. The choices made in DA2 will simply be to gigantic.

My guess, they'll do it like Mass Effect. If you played ME1 and imported into ME2, then all the decisions you made were imported. If you just started in ME2 then Bioware chose a story from ME1 and you lived with that story as if it's cannon. But they didn't predefine your character for you. You created Shepard just as if you played ME1, then they simply referenced those decisions you would have made in ME1 as if it was the character you just created.