202 réponses à ce sujet

[Merllle]

Taint Master wrote...

Final Fantasy is probably the most recognizable RPG franchise on the planet. Why wouldn't you look to them as an example.

Because that's exactly what they DON'T want to do. Something that's done already. And that's exactly why the JRPGs are in a complete and dying stagnation. No matter how much they sell, they simply aren't what they used to be anymore because they refuse to move on. BioWare does things their own way and keep inovating. There are things which are not comparable.

The day BioWare stops giving up RPGs with a character creator, it's the day it'll loose much more then it can count, despite marketing choices. Just because you had an idea doesn't mean it's a good one.

[KennethAFTopp]

Taint Master wrote...

Bioware's RPGs are great, but even the devs have mentioned the need to move away from the old ways of doing things. The open ended games are great as single titles, but if you want to make a franchise out of it, it is MUCH harder to tie everything together as the games go on. There are just too many variables to keep going without establishing a canon.

Final Fantasy is probably the most recognizable RPG franchise on the planet. Why wouldn't you look to them as an example.

An Apple and a peach are both a fruit, but they're still different from each other.
Why try and make an apple into a peach?

[finnugold]

If you want to play a game with a set protagonist, go play Final Fantasy or some **** like that.

[Merllle]

KennethAFTopp wrote...

An Apple and a peach are both a fruit, but they're still different from each other.
Why try and make an apple into a peach?

^ Also, this.

[ReinaHW]

If western RPG's were like the FF series, then all you would need is a bowl of popcorn and to occassionally press a command. There would be no reason to play it as such, only watch it for the most part.



The FF series is popular, aye, but something to consider is that feelings towards JRPG's aren't good due to the lack of progress in terms of character, story and choice for the player.

If WRPG's were all like that, and some are, then they wouldn't appeal to everyone. The joy of Bioware's RPG's and RPG's like Oblivion, Morrowind and Fallout 3, is that instead of being lumped with a character you had little to no say in, you can at least have a say, even if their personality is still connected to their progression in the story, you can still have choice.

Some WRPG's - Fallout 3, Oblivion, Morrowind for example, Divinity 2 in part, even take away any personality as such and encourage the player to be the one who makes the personality of the character they play as, that the player is the one telling the story instead of the developers.



JRPG's don't do that, they just lump you with a character who's personality is the same as many other JRPG characters and to follow a story which restricts the player in a lot of things.

To ask Bioware to be like Square and other JRPG developers is frankly illogical, if you have problems with the freedom of creating your character, of freedom in a game, then perhaps Bioware's games and several other WRPG's aren't your thing and you should avoid them as best as possible.

[Taint Master]

Saibh wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

Bioware's RPGs are great, but even the devs have mentioned the need to move away from the old ways of doing things. The open ended games are great as single titles, but if you want to make a franchise out of it, it is MUCH harder to tie everything together as the games go on. There are just too many variables to keep going without establishing a canon.

Final Fantasy is probably the most recognizable RPG franchise on the planet. Why wouldn't you look to them as an example.

They mentioned they need to evolve, which is not the same thing as completely removing at least gender options. Seriously, every single game since Baldur's Gate (excusing Sonic, of course) has allowed gender and class choice. It is a mighty step backwards to remove it.

Why are people getting so hung up on gender?  If Garrett Hawke was presented as a female it wouldn't change my argument. 

Garrett is what Bioware has made him, which is apparently a human, male, arcane warrior.  If that was canonized, then the story could be written to deeply investigate the lives of apostates (his sister is also a mage) during the colapse of the Chantry.  That sounds exciting to me.  If it's open ended, he could be a warrior or a rogue, so Bioware has to plan for those options as well and can't flesh out the mage storyline as well.  I hope I'm being clear.

Maybe, down the line, in another game they have a female warrior protagonist.  Like I said my wardens were all female.  It's not a big deal.

Modifié par Taint Master, 19 août 2010 - 10:36 .

[KethWolfheart]

Taint Master wrote...

I guess that's why FFXIII received such rave reviews.
http://ps3.ign.com/o...826/826843.html

Clearly JRPGs are such a "joke" that millions of people buy and play them.

Millions of people play WOW - does that mean every MMORPG should be like WoW?

Millions of people play Farmville - does that mean every game should be like Farmville?

Millions of people drive fords - does that mean every car should be a ford?

Your logic is extremely faulty.  Just because A does well does not mean B-Z should be the same as A.

[Rapidiul]

Taint Master wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

Bioware's RPGs are great, but even the devs have mentioned the need to move away from the old ways of doing things. The open ended games are great as single titles, but if you want to make a franchise out of it, it is MUCH harder to tie everything together as the games go on. There are just too many variables to keep going without establishing a canon.

Final Fantasy is probably the most recognizable RPG franchise on the planet. Why wouldn't you look to them as an example.

They mentioned they need to evolve, which is not the same thing as completely removing at least gender options. Seriously, every single game since Baldur's Gate (excusing Sonic, of course) has allowed gender and class choice. It is a mighty step backwards to remove it.

Why are people getting so hung up on gender?  If Garrett Hawke was presented as a female it wouldn't change my argument. 

Garrett is what Bioware has made him, which is apparently a human, male, arcane warrior.  If that was canonized, then the story could be written to deeply investigate the lives of apostates (his sister is also a mage) during the colapse of the Chantry.  That sounds exciting to me.  If it's open ended, he could be a warrior or a rogue, so Bioware has to plan for those options as well and can't flesh out the mage storyline as well.  I hope I'm being clear.

Maybe, down the line, in another game they have a female warrior protagonist.  Like I said my wardens were all female.  It's not a big deal.

Play as Garrett if you want. I don't want to play as Garrett, and there are more people who don't. It should be like Mass Effect, where you can choose a default Shepard, or create your own Shepard, with his/her own name.

[Saibh]

Taint Master wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

Bioware's RPGs are great, but even the devs have mentioned the need to move away from the old ways of doing things. The open ended games are great as single titles, but if you want to make a franchise out of it, it is MUCH harder to tie everything together as the games go on. There are just too many variables to keep going without establishing a canon.

Final Fantasy is probably the most recognizable RPG franchise on the planet. Why wouldn't you look to them as an example.

They mentioned they need to evolve, which is not the same thing as completely removing at least gender options. Seriously, every single game since Baldur's Gate (excusing Sonic, of course) has allowed gender and class choice. It is a mighty step backwards to remove it.

Why are people getting so hung up on gender?  If Garrett Hawke was presented as a female it wouldn't change my argument. 

Garrett is what Bioware has made him, which is apparently a human, male, arcane warrior.  If that was canonized, then the story could be written to deeply investigate the lives of apostates (his sister is also a mage) during the colapse of the Chantry.  That sounds exciting to me. 

Maybe, down the line, in another game they have a female warrior protagonist.  Like I said my wardens were all female.  It's not a big deal.

Because we want the choice.

Again. If. You. Want. A. Game. With. One. Single. Protagonist.

PLAY.

A.

DIFFERENT.

SERIES.

How is it you haven't noticed the resounding "NO" coming from this thread? We don't play BioWare games to be Niko Bellic or Mario or fight off Infected in zombie apocalypses or anything remotely the same. If that is what you like, go play a different series.

DA2 is already a franchise--it's especially boneheaded of you to want to change a choice we've already been promised.

[Taint Master]

KethWolfheart wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

I guess that's why FFXIII received such rave reviews.
http://ps3.ign.com/o...826/826843.html

Clearly JRPGs are such a "joke" that millions of people buy and play them.

Millions of people play WOW - does that mean every MMORPG should be like WoW?

Millions of people play Farmville - does that mean every game should be like Farmville?

Millions of people drive fords - does that mean every car should be a ford?

Your logic is extremely faulty.  Just because A does well does not mean B-Z should be the same as A.

Actually I was just using FF as an example of a successful RPG franchise with less "choice" involved.  FF has become the strong IP it is, because it has canonized stories.  If you want DA3 to have any relevance to the world we are shaping in DAO and DA2, there will have to be a canon set at some point.  I don't think you realize how much extra work and money it takes to build on one open ended game after another.  There will literally be hundreds of variables to account for in DA3 at this rate.

[Taint Master]

Saibh wrote...

How is it you haven't noticed the resounding "NO" coming from this thread?

Not everyone has said "no."  Don't pretend to speak for others.

[KennethAFTopp]

And that's fine with a Canon different than what I played in DA2 or even DA:O I don't care, just aslong as I get to play the role of Hawke the way I want, and with a face that I want him to have.

Like for instance if I wanted him to look suspiciously like a young Duncan with blonde hair.

[Rapidiul]

Taint Master wrote...

KethWolfheart wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

I guess that's why FFXIII received such rave reviews.
http://ps3.ign.com/o...826/826843.html

Clearly JRPGs are such a "joke" that millions of people buy and play them.

Millions of people play WOW - does that mean every MMORPG should be like WoW?

Millions of people play Farmville - does that mean every game should be like Farmville?

Millions of people drive fords - does that mean every car should be a ford?

Your logic is extremely faulty.  Just because A does well does not mean B-Z should be the same as A.

Actually I was just using FF as an example of a successful RPG franchise with less "choice" involved.  FF has become the strong IP it is, because it has canonized stories.  If you want DA3 to have any relevance to the world we are shaping in DAO and DA2, there will have to be a canon set at some point.  I don't think you realize how much extra work and money it takes to build on one open ended game after another.  There will literally be hundreds of variables to account for in DA3 at this rate.

Leave the internet

[Saibh]

Taint Master wrote...

Actually I was just using FF as an example of a successful RPG franchise with less "choice" involved.  FF has become the strong IP it is, because it has canonized stories.  If you want DA3 to have any relevance to the world we are shaping in DAO and DA2, there will have to be a canon set at some point.  I don't think you realize how much extra work and money it takes to build on one open ended game after another.  There will literally be hundreds of variables to account for in DA3 at this rate.

You know, I like the misinformation here.

Every number in the FF series concerns a different word with a different history and different characters. Some of the have spin-offs, but you can't possibly attribute the success of the FF series to it having a canon storyline.

And, so you know, the variables thing is exactly what they're planning with ME3, and that concerns the same character in the same story in a trilogy.

Also. The "no" far, far, far outweighs the "yes". Don't presume to speak for the overwhelming majority.

Modifié par Saibh, 19 août 2010 - 10:49 .

[Taint Master]

Rapidiul wrote...

Leave the internet

Cute.  If you have nothing to contribute, how about you leave the thread, m'kay?

[Sabariel]

Taint Master wrote...

KennethAFTopp wrote...



I just think you need to realize that alot of people respecfully diagree with your idea.

They don't really have a sound reason though. FFXIII sold over 1 million copies in 5 days. That's even faster than DAO and they were only on consoles.

And quite a few of them sold their game after actually playing it. Myself included. FFXIII was unbelievably rigid and unrelenting. It was one of the reasons I decided to try a different series after enjoying the FF series for so long.

[Taint Master]

Saibh wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

Actually I was just using FF as an example of a successful RPG franchise with less "choice" involved.  FF has become the strong IP it is, because it has canonized stories.  If you want DA3 to have any relevance to the world we are shaping in DAO and DA2, there will have to be a canon set at some point.  I don't think you realize how much extra work and money it takes to build on one open ended game after another.  There will literally be hundreds of variables to account for in DA3 at this rate.

You know, I like the misinformation here.

Every number in the FF series concerns a different word with a different history and different characters. Some of the have spin-offs, but you can't possibly attribute the success of the FF series to it having a canon storyline.

Sure you can, FF has had movies and anime/manga spinoffs made.  It has 2 MMOs.  All of these things are possible because Square is willing to impose a canon.

If DA is ever going to reach that level of exposure it is a step that needs to be taken.

Also. The "no" far, far, far outweighs the "yes". Don't presume to speak for the overwhelming majority.

Where did I claim that?

[KennethAFTopp]

Taint Master wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

Actually I was just using FF as an example of a successful RPG franchise with less "choice" involved.  FF has become the strong IP it is, because it has canonized stories.  If you want DA3 to have any relevance to the world we are shaping in DAO and DA2, there will have to be a canon set at some point.  I don't think you realize how much extra work and money it takes to build on one open ended game after another.  There will literally be hundreds of variables to account for in DA3 at this rate.

You know, I like the misinformation here.

Every number in the FF series concerns a different word with a different history and different characters. Some of the have spin-offs, but you can't possibly attribute the success of the FF series to it having a canon storyline.

Sure you can, FF has had movies and anime/manga spinoffs made.  It has 2 MMOs.  All of these things are possible because Square is willing to impose a canon.

If DA is ever going to reach that level of exposure it is a step that needs to be taken.

Also. The "no" far, far, far outweighs the "yes". Don't presume to speak for the overwhelming majority.

Where did I claim that?

It also doesn't have a dialogue system as in DA series, you want to remove that too?

[finnugold]

Actually I was just using FF as an example of a successful RPG franchise with less "choice" involved.  FF has become the strong IP it is, because it has canonized stories.  If you want DA3 to have any relevance to the world we are shaping in DAO and DA2, there will have to be a canon set at some point.  I don't think you realize how much extra work and money it takes to build on one open ended game after another.  There will literally be hundreds of variables to account for in DA3 at this rate.

You're arguing against yourself. FF is a successful "RPG" franchise with an established canon, yes. But it also does not have a storyline continuing from one game to the next.

FF is popular for one reason. Let Bioware games be popular for another reason. Trying to force everyone to be alike results in conflict. Variety is the lifeblood of consumerism.

Also, hundreds of variables is barely anything in computer programming.

Modifié par finnugold, 19 août 2010 - 10:55 .

[ReinaHW]

Where's a Darth Vader quote when you need one? Oh wait, here's one -



"Nooooooooooooooooooo!"



Your idea might have worked maybe a decade ago, but things have changed. Bioware and the developers of Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Saint's Row 2 have shown us that choice, not just in gender but in how we play the game, are what gaming needs, what it's been needing for a good long while and still badly needs.

We don't want to see gaming keep going backwards while a few are nudging it forwards, as it is due to the amount of games which tend to be too much of the same have made it feel like the gaming industry is stuck in a rut, while a small handful of game development companies are looking to pull gaming from that rut.



Times have changed and there are quite a lot of gamers, though it seems like a minority, who are welcoming that change, yearning for more of it.

Gneder choice, choice in how to play, imagination, creative ideas, those are what we want to see now.

[KethWolfheart]

Taint Master wrote...

KethWolfheart wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

I guess that's why FFXIII received such rave reviews.
http://ps3.ign.com/o...826/826843.html

Clearly JRPGs are such a "joke" that millions of people buy and play them.

Millions of people play WOW - does that mean every MMORPG should be like WoW?

Millions of people play Farmville - does that mean every game should be like Farmville?

Millions of people drive fords - does that mean every car should be a ford?

Your logic is extremely faulty.  Just because A does well does not mean B-Z should be the same as A.

Actually I was just using FF as an example of a successful RPG franchise with less "choice" involved.  FF has become the strong IP it is, because it has canonized stories.  If you want DA3 to have any relevance to the world we are shaping in DAO and DA2, there will have to be a canon set at some point.  I don't think you realize how much extra work and money it takes to build on one open ended game after another.  There will literally be hundreds of variables to account for in DA3 at this rate.

Doesn't really matter as not everyone likes FF, some hate it fact for the very reasons that many people like it. There is zero reason why DA needs to go that path to be successful as there are other options available.  FF is not the only game franchise that has done well.  Not to mention the whole market issue of west and east and how the cultures and style of games vary.  Trying to turn DA into FF would be a major steb BACKWARDS in game design, not forward.

As for the canon issues, I already addressed this (as have many others in this thread) - but either you are not reading posts in your own thread or have decided not to respond to valid points that run counter to your arguement, which borders on being rather trollish in behavoir.

Regardless it is just your own opinion that this is the case as there are plenty of arguements that dispute your points on how much canon is required.  The mere fact you don't mind (and are nmot simply trolling out of boredom) a certain game style hardly means everyone else does or that it would be a good idea.

Diversity can be a good thing - turning DA into some FF clone seems pointless and counterproductive.

Modifié par KethWolfheart, 19 août 2010 - 10:59 .

[Merllle]

Taint Master wrote...

If DA is ever going to reach that level of exposure it is a step that needs to be taken.

Wow, are we Loghaining, now? That's an attitude as rigid as Final Fantasy XIII itself. Just because a company got a certain level of exposure by doing something, doesn't mean the other will only attain the same level by doing exactly the same. That's actually a mistake.

I am now going to requote myself.

Merllle wrote...

Just because you had an idea doesn't mean it's a good one.

Modifié par Merllle, 19 août 2010 - 10:59 .

[Taint Master]

finnugold wrote...

Also, hundreds of variables is barely anything in computer programming.

Those hundereds of variables have wide reaching storyline implications.  That means dialogue referencing each of them has to be written and voiced.  Consequences from them have to be felt, which means different quest lines or even zones altogether may open up depenging on the state of the world.

It's a lot more complicated than you're making it out to be.

[KennethAFTopp]

Cynical Being wrote...

No thank you. I probably would never be able to play it through more than once.. When I buy the game I want to go through and be a dashing, lithe, good rogue. Then be an apostate mage intent on destroying anything in my way to power. If it were canon wouldn't it take away appearance, class, along with the things they already have?
I don't really care too much about my race and last name, but a canon on my character would ruin the idea of BioWare for me. They might as well not let me choose my conversation choices either.

Oooh Like in Final Fantasy!