202 réponses à ce sujet

[KennethAFTopp]

I think there's a certain sense of pride of looking at a face of a main character at the end of the game and feeling a swell of pride and say to yourself, "I created that guy, the face the personality." granted within certain parameters but still.

Like I said, some people love dicking around with the character generator, like me.

Modifié par KennethAFTopp, 19 août 2010 - 11:33 .

[Taint Master]

KethWolfheart wrote...

You talk about a canon Garrett and then respond to comments about a female lead in a future DA game ... which then refutes your point that DA needs to have this whole IP franchices with a locked in stone canon main character and story.

Perhaps I wasn't being clear.  Obviously as the franchise matures there will be room for new protagonists.  Garrett can't be the hero forever, and when his story is over they could just as easily make a new female lead.

You do not even provide any good points as to why this might make DA successful (which it already is) and in fact could have a huge backlash (as shown by the people in this thread) among people that could hurt the franchise.  People have already pointed out the game does have books and comics and other media, which you also didn't respond to.

Dragon Age has no media that branch out directly from the game lore.  With a canon that becomes possible.  They could make a MMO or a movie series based directly on the events of DA2 for example.  After seeing the trailer you have to admit the idea is intriguing, no?

Still my apologies for implying you are a troll, since regardless of your agenda you have remained, mostly, polite.  But it is clear you don't really wish to hear opposing views.

It just seems like most people are repeating the same points that I've argued against already.  But I'm sorry if I was snippy.

[Merci357]

Taint Master wrote...

Merci357 wrote...

I could understand if you prefered some story decisions were made into a canon story, but the character? Honestly, that's a single different variable when importing into a future game/expansion. Your Hawke was called Garrett, and mine was a custom FemHawke. How does canon Garrett prevent the overflow of dozens of story choices in any way, like NPC X is alive for you, but dead for me?

Well for example, a male Hawke (Garrett) probably has different romance choices in the game.  What if he is able to have a child with one or more?  That is something that could definitely carry over to later games. 

It would work the same way for a female Hawke, and had Hawke been presented as a kickass female I would still be arguing to make the character canon.  It's just for simplicity's sake, nothing more.

Okay, so it's (if we take Origins as example) one possible different romance Morrigan/Alistair, since Zevran/Leliana were shared, that makes importing difficult? What about Dark Ritual yes/no, Loghain dead/alive, who's King/Queen, who is the Dwarven King, Dalish or Werewolves as allies, Anvil preserved or destroyed? Don't you really think those decisions could possibly have more of an impact when importing?
Honestly, compared to that, gender and romance seem quite trivial.

[KethWolfheart]

Ah well I was snippy to ... of course because I abhor your idea :-) But I suppose no need to bicker over the internet, as entertaining as it sometimes is. Appreciate the polite response.

Perhaps a different approach then.

Do you think it is impossible for a franchise to do well even if it doesn't take a FF approach?

It almost seems like you feel the J-RPG approach is the only way to do well ... and yet it seems like that has been done to death and gone stagnant.

Would it really be advisible for Bioware (or any company, especially in the West) to take a path already done?

Not to side track too much - but look at WoW - the MMORPG behemoth. Even if another company duplicated their "formula" do you think it would do as well? Now maybe their company philosophy - polish, professional, etc., but probably not their genre or game play style. It will take something new to break that barrier I think.

Same for RPG games. So why turn to an JRPG? In fact isn't Bioware interest an in IP franchise with DA? I think that was made very clear by them. Do you doubt they have what it takes in their company, marketing, and all those people in EA and Bioware to carry it out? Do you really think the only way they could do it is take the cheap path of a stict canon and turn the game into just an action game, a playable movie, a JRPG?

I guess I give Bioware more trust, credit and faith in ingenuity then some people ... even if I still lament some of the choices being made already in DA2.

Modifié par KethWolfheart, 19 août 2010 - 11:48 .

[Taint Master]

Merci357 wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

Merci357 wrote...

I could understand if you prefered some story decisions were made into a canon story, but the character? Honestly, that's a single different variable when importing into a future game/expansion. Your Hawke was called Garrett, and mine was a custom FemHawke. How does canon Garrett prevent the overflow of dozens of story choices in any way, like NPC X is alive for you, but dead for me?

Well for example, a male Hawke (Garrett) probably has different romance choices in the game.  What if he is able to have a child with one or more?  That is something that could definitely carry over to later games. 

It would work the same way for a female Hawke, and had Hawke been presented as a kickass female I would still be arguing to make the character canon.  It's just for simplicity's sake, nothing more.

Okay, so it's (if we take Origins as example) one possible different romance Morrigan/Alistair, since Zevran/Leliana were shared, that makes importing difficult? What about Dark Ritual yes/no, Loghain dead/alive, who's King/Queen, who is the Dwarven King, Dalish or Werewolves as allies, Anvil preserved or destroyed? Don't you really think those decisions could possibly have more of an impact when importing?
Honestly, compared to that, gender and romance seem quite trivial.

The thing is, several of those things you listed can be tied into romances.  Dark Ritual, Loghain dead/alive, who's King/Queen, etc.  With a predetermined character, the amount of possibilities are narrowed, making the choices you do have more important because they're easier to plan for in future installments.

[Merci357]

I doubt this, with the listed choices at least. I can do the exact opposite, with both genders.

[Taint Master]

KethWolfheart wrote...

Do you think it is impossible for a franchise to do well even if it doesn't take a FF approach?

Of course not.

Same for RPG games. SO why turn to an JRPG? IN fact isn't Bioware interest an in IP franchise with DA? I think that was made very clear by them. Do you doubt they have what it takes in their company, marketing, and all those people in EA and Bioware to carry it out? Do you really think the only way they could do it is take the cheap path of a stict canon and turn the game into just an action game, a playable movie, a JRPG?

I guess I give Bioware more trust, credit and faith in ingenuity then some people ... even if I still lament some of the choices being made already in DA2.

I'd be open to hearing alternatives, but if DA3 continues to tell the story of Thedas, as shaped by our decisions in DAO and DA2, short of ignoring the sub-plot elements altogether, how can they keep things cohesive without a canon? 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see how it's realistic short of completely seperating each new installment.  In which case are we really shaping Thedas at all?

[Saibh]

Honestly, why don't we all just dump this thread? OP isn't listening--just keeps repeating the same "but x is popular!" and various other pointless arguments that are completely missing the point. They honestly don't seem to understand the merits of this sort of game, or why BioWare (or any company) chooses to make different games.

[Taint Master]

Saibh wrote...

Honestly, why don't we all just dump this thread? OP isn't listening--just keeps repeating the same "but x is popular!"

That's not what I said at all actually. 

[finnugold]

Taint Master wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Honestly, why don't we all just dump this thread? OP isn't listening--just keeps repeating the same "but x is popular!"

That's not what I said at all actually. 

In your defense, it actually isn't at all what you said.

I understand what you want and why you want it, you feel it's more practical and less resource-consuming to create an established canon for an ongoing series.

However, I don't agree with you and I think Saibh's right when she says we should abandon thread.

[ReinaHW]

Predetermined characters lack the emotional context of a created character. Even though Shepard was largely a predetermined character, many of the choices relied on the player, regardless of the gender of Shepard.

Like saving Kaiden or Ashley, who do you go for? You don't have the time to get both, so you have to make a command decision. Who's more vital to the mission, both are, who has the skills needed for success, both do, so how do you choose?



In Dragon Age a choice like that appeared again, who do you choose to be the new king for the dwarves? Both have their pros and cons, without any way of really know just how this will affect things at that time you have to make a command decision.

With a pretermined character that choice would never be there, it would always be chosen for you to progress the story. Bioware made it so that they don't make the choice for you, you make the choice and have to accept whatever happens from that choice.



That's something that makes Bioware's games as well as Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Morrowind so good, the choices. Whatever choices you make, be it with your character and within the game as you progress, the consequences of those actions will continue to develop.

I'm very interested in seeing how my choices in DA:O will affect DA2, to see how the ripples I set in motion have come along.



I would hate for those choices to be made for me, to not have the choice of what and how my character will be. That would just ruin any enjoyment.

[Xayasha]

I think it would go against the whole point of the game/franchise.

They want our adventure to be ours in every way possible. I mean, they are going as far as to let us shape our character personnality and overall voice tone based on choices we make while talking to different characters... compared to that, chosing at least our character sex is a given.

[tmp7704]

Taint Master wrote...

I'd be open to hearing alternatives, but if DA3 continues to tell the story of Thedas, as shaped by our decisions in DAO and DA2, short of ignoring the sub-plot elements altogether, how can they keep things cohesive without a canon? 

If you enforce a canon --which means "this is how things happened for everyone-- then there is no "story of Thedas as shaped by our decisions" because your decisions are entirely ignored by said canon. At best, some of the choices you've made may happen to match the official story but it makes little difference in the end, things aren't the way they are because of your decisions. Which brings up a question if there's even point in allowing the player to choose at all, when in the end these choices are going to matter squat?

You also don't need canon to make story with persistent elements across the installments that were defined by player's choices -- see how the Awakening doesn't enforce pre-made character onto the player but imports their own, doesn't enfore who is ruling Ferelden but also imports player's choice regarding this matter, and other similar elements.

[KethWolfheart]

For the most part I think the OP is making some points, even if I disagree, and being polite. I misjudged their intent I think, as have others. Of course considering Biowares reputation, and this is their fansite, I can see why it has not gone over well.

Not that I agree though! I personally hate the very idea. I think it would totally destroy DA to do what the OP suggests. It would cheapen and weaken it. But then I dislike most any game with a pre-set character. The more freedom the better. Bioware has always walked that line between choice and story. Hence it is why I strongly dislike all the ME games but love the DAO game (not to mention many of their earlier games).

I guess I feel there is no real conflict with providing both choice in decisions AND the character, as well as mixing up some canon with some player based views.

For example the archdemon does die, no matter what. Hawke becomes the champion of Kirkwall.

Some decisions could become canon if needed - such as deciding on some defaults for new people who may not have played DAO. Someone earlier pointed out these options which reduce the issue of continuity and easing new players into the game. In fact a recent interview with Mike Laidlow had him talk about this very issue.

Also, again pointed out, I think it is more about Thedas than anyone character. You can skirt around some canon issues by talking about effects done to the world by the character. How well that is done depends on many things:

-- how much is canon versus not
-- how clever the writers are
-- how many variables they will carry over to other games
-- how far the series goes with certain characters

That last one is important. I mean DAO doesn't really carry over YOUR warden so you got to make a lot of choices, design your character, etc. But some of the big choices carry over, even if they don't all do. However thats for more the begining of the game. Then it takes off on Hawke.

The third game may reference some things Hawke did and in DAO but maybe not to many - enough to show some influence. Then again maybe DA3 will be something else entirely.

I think a lot depends on the juggle of variables, canon and the writers ingenuity. Again I think Bioware can do it, if anyone can, of course the question is will they? They also have to balance business needs and many other factors.

I think I have said all I can say in this thread. I can't say the OP has no valid points, but I do think it is not as impossible to be successful in a non-canon approach as the OP may think it is. While I can see the points made, and even agree canon can add deeper story ... I would NEVER EVER want to give up RPG freedom to just play a movie. I prefer lots of freedom (ala Morrowind) or a balance, such as DAO.

Modifié par KethWolfheart, 20 août 2010 - 12:11 .

[Saibh]

Taint Master wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Honestly, why don't we all just dump this thread? OP isn't listening--just keeps repeating the same "but x is popular!"

That's not what I said at all actually. 

You said they should copy the FF series, because they're so popular, that means they're doing it right; you gave other reasons as well, but that was one of them, and specifically the one I argued with you. 

The point is, you're just not getting it. Yes, some games with canon storylines are very successful. That is no reason to make more games like that. Yes, it would be easier to make a canon storyline--but not necessarily the most enjoyable--or profitable--experience from a BioWare game.

/done

If you want to ask me why I feel that way, Taint, feel free to PM me.

Modifié par Saibh, 20 août 2010 - 01:23 .

[Fiannawolf]

I ignore the Exile and Revan decision. FRevan and MExile for me. But as for Hawke. 10000 times No for establishing a Male only forced storyline. Its depressing enough that Default Male gets thrown around everywhere for marketing purposes.

[swirlwind]

Taint Master wrote...

Dragon Age has no media that branch out directly from the game lore.  With a canon that becomes possible.  They could make a MMO or a movie series based directly on the events of DA2 for example.  After seeing the trailer you have to admit the idea is intriguing, no?

They certainly could. However, if you're seriously asking if people find this intriguing, I would have to say no for my part. I don't want a Dragon Age MMO based on the events of earlier games. I don't want them to mess with the stories they allowed us to create with DA:O (and will allow with DA2) by turning them into a book or a movie and impose an unnecessary canon. I don't even want to see my Warden's/Hawke's story continued ad infinitum. Every great story has a beginning and an end, and that's what the games give us.

What you say is true: they might be able to rake in more money and branch out into other media more easily if they ignored the choice aspect altogether. However, for people like me, who really love what BioWare is doing right now, that would be a disaster. The great thing about the world of Thedas is that it's a vast, unexplored place right now. So far, all we've seen is Ferelden. If they want to make an MMO, write more books and comics, make a movie, make games for a handheld console, let them use other stories than the ones we've already seen.

You keep saying it would be simpler to impose canon, and surely you're right. Of course it would be simpler, but it wouldn't be desirable. My argument remains the same it has been ever since I first responded to this thread: what makes Dragon Age or any other BioWare franchise truly great is choice. Yeah, the stories and characters tend to be of great quality, but there are other games that have great stories and characters too. However, there aren't many game developers out there that manage the combination of a great story, characterisation and choice the way BioWare does. In fact, I can't name a single one off the top of my head. This is why I love BioWare games. I don't want them to change into something unrecognisable, and that is what you're suggesting.

[Revya]

Sooner or later they will have to establish canon, I just hope it is not as lazy as ME (default stuff)

[GodWood]

Revya wrote...
Sooner or later they will have to establish canon, I just hope it is not as lazy as ME (default stuff)

The ME default stuff is not canon.

[Dreadstruck]

GodWood wrote...

Revya wrote...
Sooner or later they will have to establish canon, I just hope it is not as lazy as ME (default stuff)

The ME default stuff is not canon.

Pffttt.... you really had to bump this flamebait thread, did you?

[TMZuk]

Taint Master wrote...

Lets face it, Garret Hawke is one of the coolest designs in Dragon Age, up there with Duncan and Morrigan.  I don't think there's a point in letting us make our own 'Hawkes' anymore.

David Gaider said he wanted Dragon Age to have a recognizable protagonist.  Why not just make him the canon character and dump the character creator altogether?  They could spend the development money on more content/dialogue instead and make the story richer.

DAO was our chance to make our own characters so why not make DA2 officially about Garrett?

Either you are a troll, or just plain silly!

The reason why I could never get into the Witcher, even though i really wanted too, was EXCACTLY because I could not make my own character. Go play an adventure-game.

That being said, obviously this bearded fellow is more or less canon, since he is all we see. This game looks more boring by the day.

[Saibh]

No, no, ignore the thread. It will go away. Hopefully for the last time.

[CrookedAsylum]

Taint Master wrote...


Dragon Age has no media that branch out directly from the game lore.  With a canon that becomes possible.  They could make a MMO or a movie series based directly on the events of DA2 for example.  After seeing the trailer you have to admit the idea is intriguing, no?

No.

[Jesse91]

what i want retained is character customization. to me, this is a much more important part of bioware games than the various choices you can make during the game.



i'd rather a great linear game than a boring open ending one...both of which don't descibe this series.