69 réponses à ce sujet

[Genisys]

I'd like to talk about item creation, but more specifically, I'd like to ask the community some important questions..

What properties do you feel are too Uber, in your opinion?

When does an items start to become uber (Too Powerful), in your Opinion?

How can an item have more luster without being too powerful?

Where is the best place to put (for PCs to get) the items you create?


Anyone care to give some feedback on the subject and answer some or all of the questions?

[C Writer]

Depends on what sort of item it is. When it comes to rods which can cast spells out of them, I would consider it uber if you could cast an unlimited amount of decent-enough spells out of them (even lower-level ones like magic missile). Haste is also a property which means business, and should be saved for later levels, and preferably be either a bought item or as a reward for doing something significant later on. As for weapons and apparel (or anything really), it really does depend on your level. For instance, being able to bypass all DRs up to +3 and being immune to, say, spells of level four or lower, when you are only at level 7, then this is going to make the module too easy, whereas it wouldn't if you were on level 16. But then agian, the monsters and threats in the module can also make a difference.

I personally think that the most powerful items or at least things that you'll want a lot of should be kept in stores so that PCs have a reason to collect GP. That's why catering the module to support henchmen could well be a good idea, so that the game doesn't change too significantly if you give the party a single powerful item. Or at least this is how I see it.

Modifié par C Writer, 19 août 2010 - 06:27 .

[Shadooow]

haste, immunities, TS, vorpal personally keeping them separated in my treasure system with minimal chances to find out, but still available to players.

[Karvon]

In terms of traditional PNP, +5 was the max property, so anything over that, I consider uber myself. While I don't use ILR in my games, I do follow a rough rule of 4:1, so up to lv1 4 the max is +1 from 5-8 +2, and so on, when selecting items to make available for treasure. If you keep a reasonably firm control of gold supply, even if you have stuff in shops, players won't be able to afford till they reach the right level range.



...and yeah, I'd be careful about permahaste and high DR.



I'm less concerned about immunity items, as there's a trade off between protection against one threat with the loss of protection from another with any particular inventory slot. Furthermore, such items help balance things out between the nonspellcasters and spellcasters.



Note: I'm looking at this from the stand point of just the default magical items. If you allow forges or other forms of player customized items, you are potentially opening a real can of worms as players can then create near total immunity for themselves, assuming they can get the gold or gems needed. In such cases, I think you need to use ILR, to maintain some semblance of play balance.



Karvon

[Genisys]

Very interesting and insightful thoughts you guys provided, everyone, thank you for your input, truly..

I have a few questions, and comments to the above post..

Haste Uber? Let's see here, it gives +4 AC & + 1 Additional Attack, that's pretty damn good yes, but uber, I'm not so sure about that..

A note for the above poster, the Traditional PNP / D&D Rules extended into Advanced Rules which clearly taught DMs how to handle Levels 40+ up into the level of 100 adventures, these Campaigns, which is obviously well beyond the scope of the original D&D Books, were quite fun to play, for both DMs and Players, as it got quite hilarious when these "God Like" Players would interact with "Moral Like" NPCs or monsters.. (Oh that brings back some very fond memories)

I definitely don't think +6 AC Items are Uber, though anything over that, tends to lend to a very unbalanced campaign, seriously fast too...

Though, when you start adding properties to Weapons beyond +8 AB / EB, you start taking away from the value of certain builds, like a buffing cleric / monk, or buffing bard build, because buffs only stack up to +20, and that include the weapon bonus too. Therefore if you hand out say a +12 weapon, it's definitely going to start weakening builds, significantly..

Forges, if improperly set up, to avoid uberness (like 8 bonus spell slots to all items), or properties you clearly do not want on your module, aren't uber in the slightest, to me.. Again, that truly depends on how they are setup..

Gold doesn't lend to uberness, even if you had 400 billion gold, if you had nothing worth purchasing all you have done, as a Dev, is made gold 100% useless.. However, if they had a vent for all that gold, to make uber stuff, or buy it, it's not the fault of the player in one bit.. And even if things get carried away, we can always undo anything through scripting. (with on equip or on activate)

When I think uber, I think anything over 50% concealment is definitely uber, especially when the player using it has, for example, 80-100 AC (Depending upon the AB of the monster), monsters will swing all day and do nothing, for the most part..

Concealment effects some spells, especially ranged attack spells, like for example, Vampiric Touch..

I once read a poster state resistance is uber..

Yes, I can agree with this statement to some extent, for some spells are more or less nullfied if the player has say 20 Resist to the damage... Improved Evasion is definitely an item property I consider uber, and by handing it out, you more or less make Shadow Dancer / Monk / Rogue classes a lot less desirable, for sure.. (That's 50% automatic immunity to area effect spells that allow a reflex save, and 100% immunity if the player makes the save)

Immunity to spells by level, definitely uber in my book... (Especially if it's over level 3) For entire builds are built around the spell Ice Storm specifically.. (A 4th level spell which doesn't allow a save)

Immunity to Spell School, also extremely uber, especially evocation or necromancy.. Which would then of course render some builds entirely worthless...

I don't like handing out immunities, if I can get away with it, for many players complain gear is weak, if you don't give them some standard immunities like mind & death immunity, I'm not saying you gotta hand out immunities, I'm just saying it really blows to get stunned and die from being stunned, or dying instantly to a lame bodak, every time... (Those bodaks love to spam death spells)

I found a great way to hand someone an uber property, is to make it a potion, like the Spell Shadow Shield, definitely uber, because it gives +5 Natural AC, 100 % immunity to negative Damage, and Immunity to Necromancy Spells, however, it's a potion, so it don't last forever, and those potions should cost an arm / leg / & possibly more to obtain.

I completely agree with the above posters, about balancing items vs the challenge of the monsters in the module is critical to balancing items and even your world,  Well said!  Balancing gold by putting the great items in store, which cost you a major amount of gold is great too, for this is an obvious way to keep those PCs working for more!

Please continue to give feedback and post your opinion, this is a great post, I love it..

and thanks again to the above posters for posting on topic..

Modifié par Genisys, 20 août 2010 - 12:20 .

[Shadooow]

Problem with immunities is that players can switch them when they need them. Its standard way to keep 5belts in inventory and just switch through them if you need the proper DR or immunity...

[Drewskie]

They easily could have made a perma expeditious retreat property, doing away with the extra attack and AC bonus of haste, yet chose not to for some reason.

[TSMDude]

We follow a Guideline which went ahead and copied below without reffering to our server. This is somethign we have foudn works awesome and though we go to plus 5 on some things only Crafting/Enchanting  or DM Drops allow for that.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) The item MUST have a unique tag and resref.  Please make sure all of them start with your initials _itemname..  so John Doe would be jd_itemname

2) All items submitted should be created in a mod that is CEP 2.3 and 1.69 compatible

3) All items MUST be stored in the pallette in a specific place.  That place being

CEP 2.1
  Builder specific
   Special
    Custom 1

4) Do not submit seperate erfs for each item.  Append them all to a single erf.  Send me a rar file with 30 seperate erfs, I will pretty much just delete it and not bother.

5) Do not use any special unique on use functions.. ie no scripts can be attached to the item.

6) No item can have more them 3 special properties on it.

7) All items must have a description on them

ITEM GUIDELINES FOR SUBMISSIONS

These will be things found in stores most likely.  More powerful things will be limited to crafting/special drops/dm drops

Ability Bonus/Enchantment:
      Maximum ability boost = +3

Ability Type Bonus/Item Type
Each Ability bonus should be limited to 2 possible inventory slots:

     Strength      = Belt and Bracers
     Intelligence  = Rings
     Dexterity      = Boots and Bracers
     Constitution = Belts and Boots
     Wisdom        = Rings
     Charisma     = Amulet and Cloaks


AC Bonus
    Maximum Adjustment = +3


[Item Properties

Restricted/Banned
   - Permanent Haste
   - Permanent True Seeing
   - Regeneration
   - Dmg Reduction from Weapon Types (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning)
   - On hit Cast Spell
   - Unlimited Ammunition
   - Permanent Immunity to dmg types or Specific Effects (death, poison, spell schools, feats)
   - Free Movement
   - Epic Level Feats
   - Max of 15/- For Elemental Bonuses
      - No two different types of Elemental Bonuses can be used on the same item

Spells Usage
    Levels 1 – 3 = Max 2X/day (or charge per use)
    Levels 4 – 6 = Max 1X/day (or charge per use)
    Levels 7 – 9 = not allowed

Skill Bonuses
     1 skill = +10 max
     2 skills = +6 max for each
     3 skills = +4 max for each
     4 skills or more = +3 each

     - Move Silently – Limited to Boots
     - Hide In Shadows – Limited to Cloaks and Armor
     - Discipline – Limited to Boots/Bracers
     - Pick Pocket – Limited to Bracers/Gloves
     - Tumble – Limited to Boots

Additional Damage
      - Maximum of 1d6 for all damage types (physical and elemental)
      - Only 1 type of additional damage bonus per item

[Karvon]

Sorry, I'm old school and follow the Dave Arneson rule in my campaigns. Level 20 gets you a feast and retirement Hence, I'm not really into any of the epic stuff at all.



Karvon

[Eurypterid]

I consider permanent haste uber. As well, permanent concealment of any value over maybe 20% is also uber. Remember, these effects, if on an item and permanent, cannot be dispelled. If that's not uber, I don't know what is. Stacked immunities: uber. Stacked multiple damage types (like +X enchantment, +xdy acid, fire, and cold damage): uber.



My two cents.

[Genisys]

While, I don't think low level gear is appropriate for Action Servers, in fact, I've never see a low level gear module in Action, and if there was one, it didn't last too long. Mainly because there is more intensity in combat, with combat being the major focus of the module. Low level gear can work, but it would make the Action Worlds very deadly and nobody would enjoy it...(Dying sucks, I don't care how you slice it or dice it)

I see all gear as usable, with the slight exception of maybe On-Hit Slay, which when a party is spamming on monsters, they tend to fall over dead too easy, but then there is a switch to stop that more or less.. (Rolls of 1 do not fail..)

You can build any kind of module / campaign that suits your taste, and if low level items is your taste, nothing wrong with that, because there are a lot of players who do not give much focus to the game's action category, but are more into Role Playing... (Understandable, completely)

I'm not really asking the RPers what uber is, because let's face it, a +5 weapon with 4d8 total bonus damage isn't even remotely uber on (MOST) Action Servers... In fact, a weapon like that wouldn't even damage many bosses on many of the servers I've been on..

When I say uber, I'm more or less referring to..
+14 to +20 Weapons
+8 or higher AC Items..
Items that give Unlmited Powerful Spell Usage (Like Harm / Greater Ruin / etc.)

Things which obviously will throw the balance extremely out of wack....

Personally,  don't think Damage Immunity is uber, if it's properly controlled.. (say 5% on some items)

Damage Reduction isn't like Resistance, and resistance in my book is very powerful (borderline uber)

It's a lot of fun to take a powerful item and go wreak havoc on the world, even if it is short term, as soon as the DMs realize this item is too powerful it tends to go POOF, or suddenly change (on equip) to be not so awesome. 

Immunity to Criticals is a bit uber, as it grants immunity to sneaks as well, but hey, palemasters get it..
(I'm asking myself, what were they thinking?) - Someone has a fix for this, anyone know where to get it?

All in all, I think everyone has to answer that question for them self, now that I've thought about it more, because we are all different, and most of us will answer differently on such a broad question...

Modifié par Genisys, 22 août 2010 - 10:40 .

[Eradrain]

This question ultimately amounts not to what item properties a person thinks is uber, but the way they choose to balance. If +10 weapons are normal on your server, they're not gonna be uber to anyone.

That said, some abilities are generally banned on most mid-magic RP servers. Significant immunities, class-specific feats on gear (like HiPS), unmodified-bioware True Seeing, Haste (The reason it's OP is because it gives you so much, you can cast twice as many spells per round, you gain an extra attack, you gain +4 stacking AC, and you gain fast movement, and all of these bonuses stack with other similar ones, and are nondispellable), some others.

Modifié par Eradrain, 21 août 2010 - 11:23 .

[NWN DM]

Depends on the world.

In my campaign(s), +2 with an ability boost and a bonus feat would be quite likely the pinnacle of what a (highly) successful adventurer would ever hope to find in his/her career.

All depends on how you lay out your environment.

[Eurypterid]

Genysis, I play on an action server (I'm not much of a roleplayer) where a weapon like +5 with 4d8 would be incredibly uber. In fact, I doubt if one of those exists (and yes, the server does go to level 40). I've played there for about 4 1/2 years and so have a number of others. It's actually a fairly popular server. That's not to say there aren't any weapons above +5 enchantment, as there are, but they're extremely rare. And there's nothing in the range of a +10 weapon with the single exception of a quest item that the player does not get to keep after the completion of the quest.



The server is difficult, and players die. But the penalties for death aren't that harsh and the difficulty - coupled with the lack of uber items - makes it a lot of fun.



Anyway, I agree with your final statement that it's a personal judgment.

[Onion Eater]

It aint about where Uber starts, but where Uber ends.



Meaning, there are two different uses of Uber here. One, the objective Uber, applies to the limits of the game engine. I don't think that's what's being discussed, so, we'll move to the second...



The second usage is subjective. It depends on the the environment. Perma-haste may be the norm in one land, and entirely overblown in the other. It all depends on how the balancing is done. There's a great deal of space to account for personal taste, but if an item is far and away better than most else that's available, then you've hit uber.

[Genisys]

Onion Eater wrote...

It aint about where Uber starts, but where Uber ends.

Meaning, there are two different uses of Uber here. One, the objective Uber, applies to the limits of the game engine. I don't think that's what's being discussed, so, we'll move to the second...

The second usage is subjective. It depends on the the environment. Perma-haste may be the norm in one land, and entirely overblown in the other. It all depends on how the balancing is done. There's a great deal of space to account for personal taste, but if an item is far and away better than most else that's available, then you've hit uber.

That last sentence you state here, is very significant, and right on the money, thanks for that..

It's going to define how I make stuff in the future, everything should be in perspective to close to the other gear that is available to the PC at their current character's level.  Granted, a PC may encounter a +5 powerful weapon, but of course, they shouldn't be able to use it till level 20 or higher, to keep the balance...

Obviously a level 1 with a +5 weapon (remember the story of King Author), is going to be pretty uber, especially if it has more damage on it than just the enchantment bonus damage.

True Uber (Being pushing the game far beyond the normal rules) is not something most people talk about, unless they are trying to make a module like that, or are on a module like that..

Thanks again for that fabulous tip mate..

[Redunct]

The issue with making items too powerful is the bias it holds to non-gear dependent classes.



I personally try to avoid any module that gives anything past +3, and anything past +3 better be very difficult to acquire.



Haste is and always has been ridiculous. Perm. haste better be something difficult to obtain, and I mean kill the dragon that requires 10 people with a very low chance of dropping.

[Genisys]

Redunct wrote...

The issue with making items too powerful is the bias it holds to non-gear dependent classes.

I personally try to avoid any module that gives anything past +3, and anything past +3 better be very difficult to acquire.

Haste is and always has been ridiculous. Perm. haste better be something difficult to obtain, and I mean kill the dragon that requires 10 people with a very low chance of dropping.

This is feedback for consideration, not meant to be a flame or argumentative..

I have never transcribed to this style of modules, in fact it's one of the reasons I started building my own modules..

Furthermore, one player put it quite nicely when he said:

"Low gear modules only make mages & magic all the more powerful.."

A wizard, even with completely crummy gear, would OWN any other class that didn't have immunities or item properties to be able to endure a mage's power, yes even monks...

Let's face it, a level 40 monk with Improved Spell Resistance X cannot stop a level 40 mage's spell, sorry..
(Especially if they get Dispelled by Mords (-10 SR))  <<<IF that still works since the 1.69 Update..

Uber to me is when one class completely dominates a server or module, unless the module was built specifically for a class, though these tend to be offline modules, I've seen server modules that tipped the balance horrendously in favor of one class or purely melee/ranged combat by nerfing spells horrendously..  Nerfing, however, on the other hand is NOT the answer to balance things in my professional opinion...

Power = Fun, as long as you don't get carried away with it, and you can alway make adjustments as needed, for the game is without a doubt very controllable, even if things get too crazy...

Low level gear in my opinion isn't even worth venturing a module to find..

Case / Point in hand, how many people have cheated in an offline module???  Don't lie...

Finally, I'll say this, high level gear on the other hand can completely nullify classes' power / affectiveness, and even render them a poor choice.  Many modules I've played on have effectively made rogues / monks and other classes extremely hard to play because monsters are so hard and/or the gear is so good, therefore, other classes are increased in power while the weaker classes are weakened in power...

This of course is where uber truly begins & ends, because once you've gone uber it's a lot of work to make it not uber..

Modifié par Genisys, 24 août 2010 - 06:30 .

[Shadooow]

Genisys wrote...

"Low gear modules only make mages & magic all the more powerful.."

Exactly, totally agreee with Genisys.

[tmanfoo]

I'm of the opinion that anything that negates a large portion of the game mechanics be it positive or negative, is Uber.  I feel that some of these things can be used in moderation.  Being unable to resist, or immune to a very specific thing may have its uses, but it needs to come at a cost.  But to have permanent immunities, it really cuts out a large portion of any module over time.

These may be incomplete, but are as best I can remember.

Item Properties like: True Seeing, Freedom, Mind-Immunity, and Vorpal, some On Hit: among others I’m sure. 

Other things could use a cool down or change to their function: Knockdown, HIPS, Disarm, Pick Pocket, pretty standard complaint points there.

Some feats are over the top: Dev Crit, Epic Dodge, and Improved Evasion come to mind, at least in their default form. 

Damage reduction, soak and immunity are available through other routes than gear or spells, and should be evaluated very carefully.  If you’ve played a dexer, you know about the two hour AFK sessions to defeat something.

class combinations: the mix of PM with RDD for example.

Spells and Spell-Like abilities, stunning fist, for example.  Given to monsters of high level can result in a DC90 40 round stun at 15 attacks/round or whatever.  Who’s going to resist that?  Most of these effects are just way[/i] too long, or at too high an occurrence to avoid.

Modifié par tmanfoo, 23 août 2010 - 09:00 .

[Genisys]

tmanfoo wrote...

I'm of the opinion that anything that negates a large portion of the game mechanics be it positive or negative, is Uber.  I feel that some of these things can be used in moderation.  Being unable to resist, or immune to a very specific thing may have its uses, but it needs to come at a cost.  But to have permanent immunities, it really cuts out a large portion of any module over time.

These may be incomplete, but are as best I can remember.

Item Properties like: True Seeing, Freedom, Mind-Immunity, and Vorpal, some On Hit: among others I’m sure. 

Other things could use a cool down or change to their function: Knockdown, HIPS, Disarm, Pick Pocket, pretty standard complaint points there.

Some feats are over the top: Dev Crit, Epic Dodge, and Improved Evasion come to mind, at least in their default form. 

Damage reduction, soak and immunity are available through other routes than gear or spells, and should be evaluated very carefully.  If you’ve played a dexer, you know about the two hour AFK sessions to defeat something.

class combinations: the mix of PM with RDD for example.

Spells and Spell-Like abilities, stunning fist, for example.  Given to monsters of high level can result in a DC90 40 round stun at 15 attacks/round or whatever.  Who’s going to resist that?  Most of these effects are just way[/i] too long, or at too high an occurrence to avoid.

Your post has me chuckling a little here.. did you forget anything?

I trust WOTC / TSR has given classes their special abilities / feats to balance things vs the Magic Department, after all harm / implosion / timestop  and a host of other uber spells, by themselves are far more uber than many of the feat I've seen...

I've got to make a significant statement here to help clarify why some things aren't uber...

Namely because we have what's effectively God Levels, becuase anything over level 20, is pretty much godly, considering the +5 AC / AB system that was originally created, for no monster will be able to stand in +5 gear against a party of level 30's or 40's, add Legendary Levels (41-60) and your talking about the need for some seriously powerful items to keep a remote balance on a module...

I believe there is an important reason why Higher Ground and some of the more Uber (by some people's standards) are so popular, and that is because they are not afraid to turn it up a bit, and custom is really what makes NWN independently better than most games out there...

Can anyone understand where I'm comming from here?  (Like Advanced D&D Rules - Level 100 was mega fun!)

Furthermore, on PVP servers, where they keep gear low, they tend to nerf spells to keep everything within a reasonable and playable fighting balance, the only problem is, more often than not, mages are watered down to cantrips... unfortunately...  I actually played on one PVP server where the items had very minimal properties, and all weapons more or less did the around the same damage, which is difficult but possible to balance out..

One simple item can throw a module out of balance, sometimes, what you think may also be uber, like an item that can cast 4 greater ruins a day, may not be uber at all, well that is until 5 PCs are spamming greater ruin on the boss, then you see the true power of your item come forth..  I love servers who may release an item, temporarially, though they may remove if it proves too powerful, as servers like this show that they can adapt, evolve, and aren't afraid to give the PC's some fun either... after all, uber can sometimes be fun too...

Modifié par Genisys, 23 août 2010 - 10:41 .

[tmanfoo]

Oh I am sure I've forgotten a whole lot of stuff. Tabletop campaigns where even the gods fell were fun, castles in the skies. All good times.

[SHOVA]

In my opinion, Uber begins when items make other class feats, skills, or abilities no longer needed for group play.

[Genisys]

SHOVA wrote...

In my opinion, Uber begins when items make other class feats, skills, or abilities no longer needed for group play.

I agree with Improved Evasion / Epic Dodge / Hide In Plain Sight / Immunity to Crits /& Freedom being too uber, after all, why build a Pale Master if everyone can get Immunity To Crits, or if you hand out HIPs why play Shadow Dancer at all?

When creating items for a module it's easy to make mistakes, truly, while you can remove properties from an item, I'd like to stress players tend to get very upset at this, therefore, at least make the item still desirable by adding something powerful in replacement of losing the property, like 5% - 10% immunity to damage to 1 or multiple Types, or something to that effect, this way the players don't walk away feeling robbed... (Especially if they worked really hard to get the item)

Now if it's a server wide strip, of all items, then it may be paramount to make a good script to replace, say, True Seeing with Skill Bonus - Spot + 12 and you may throw in like Cast Spell (1 use / day) See Invisible, to equal out the loss...

Permanent Properties are very powerful, this is where Cast Spells X Times / Day can help illeviate the loss of properties to items..

Because Clerics / Druids / Mages can all cast True Seeing it's not going to great affect your module if you hand out true seeing as a spell or a permanent ability, unless it's a PVP module, though, rogues will not be able to get many sneaks off if everything has true seeing either..

One thing I'll stand behind as a builder is, if monsters have it, the players should have it too, the helps keep balance, and that works vica versa, if players get it, the monsters should get it as well.  The only probably notible exception to this would be the amount of damage monsters can deal, because sometimes monsters need to deal more damage to be much harder, especially Bosses. (the end monster / npc that is in control over all the lackey NPCs or Monsters)

While there is no such thing as a perfect module or balance within a module, we all strive to keep it reasonably enjoyable for all, and that's tough to do as well..  Also, temporary spells are a much better solution to giving out something rather than handing out a permanent property on an item.  I personally prefer to limit the use of spells by putting it on items, therefore the PC has to wear the item, rather than putting it on a rod / misc. item / or using potions, for potions more or less means they can use at will, with unlimited uses per day..

Hope you guys enjoyed this post & thread, thank you all for your feedback, it has been much appreciated..

Modifié par Genisys, 25 août 2010 - 05:32 .

[TM5000]

Uber begins when you have too much advantage in your environment.

There is a forge on the server I mentioned in your "do you like it rough" topic that allowed you to create weapons with +20 to everything.  I mean every type of damage you can think of.  You could add immunities to every type of damage (20/-) to items too.  It sounds ridiculous but the baddies on the server were just as difficult to fight, so...  very subjective question.

Normally, I think +5 should be enough.  Your build should do the rest!