403 réponses à ce sujet

[tj987654321]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Andaius20 wrote...
I just don't see this selfishness your talking about. Also she's one of Shepards truest friends. She the only one that doesn't give Shepard crap from convo #1 on FP. By "Evil" I mean the way you seem to vicously attack her character. on the single time she actually asks you to do something for her.  So she can't be made at you because yo ujus truined the only thing that mattered in her life? 

Again If some one who you thought was a close friend ruinbed the lives of your family, you would say " a real friend wouldn't have done that" I'm skeptical on this bit too.  So you'd say "thank you for ruining the lives of my family your the best of friends!"

I've been over this before. I will recreate the scenario here for you, though.

Let's say my best friend is named Susan. I've known Susan since I was a child and we've been through tick and thin and she's one of my, as you put it, "truest friends".

Now let's say my dad starts committing treason and war crimes against the country in which Susan and I live.

Susan and I discover this at the same time, and find him dead. I beg Susan not to expose these war crimes, these treasonous actions, to our government because my father's reputation will be tarnished and he'll be labeled a traitor.

She decides to expose the crimes.

Now I turn around and yell at her and say she isn't my friend. When she tries to explain that she did it because it was morally right I yell some more and tell her that I don't care because a real friend wouldn't have done that. Then I hate Susan forever! 

I'm pretty damned selfish.

There is one major difference in the example you give: Tali has been a friend of Shepard's for three years, and two of those years, she had no contact with Shepard. So she truly only knew Shepard for one single year. Completely different from a lifetime friend.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Yet what good does it do to reveal those crimes when Rael'Zorah is dead and all the geth he experimented on are dead as well?  With your dad in that scenario you just painted, there is a reason to report it as there could be a breach in security or something that needs to be tended to.  Shepard nullified everything Rael was doing.

Are you familiar with the idea that history should be taught and remembered so that atrocities do not repeat themselves?

The quarians have a RIGHT to know why an entire ship full of civilians and citizens is destroyed, those people dead.

Tali asks you to aid her in a treasonous act because she doesn't want her father remembered for what he actually did.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

tj987654321 wrote...
There is one major difference in the example you give: Tali has been a friend of Shepard's for three years, and two of those years, she had no contact with Shepard. So she truly only knew Shepard for one single year. Completely different from a lifetime friend.

Andaius20 said Tali was one of Shepard's "truest friends".

My analogy was keeping that thought in mind.

[tj987654321]

ShadowJ20 wrote...

tj987654321 wrote...

Everyone should list the fourteen teammates in order from your least to most favorite (both ME 1 - ME 2) (Excluding Kasumi and Zaeed)

14.Jack
13.Jacob
12.Grunt
11.Thane
10.Legion
9. Wrex
8. Mordin
7. Kaidan Alenko
6. Ashley Williams
5.Tali
4.Miranda
3.Garrus
2.Samara
1.Liara T’Soni

Mine would be similar to this.  Although I hate NO character.

I don't hate any of the characters. I only excluded Kasumi and Zaeed because they are not full characters.

[tj987654321]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Yet what good does it do to reveal those crimes when Rael'Zorah is dead and all the geth he experimented on are dead as well?  With your dad in that scenario you just painted, there is a reason to report it as there could be a breach in security or something that needs to be tended to.  Shepard nullified everything Rael was doing.

Are you familiar with the idea that history should be taught and remembered so that atrocities do not repeat themselves?

The quarians have a RIGHT to know why an entire ship full of civilians and citizens is destroyed, those people dead.

Tali asks you to aid her in a treasonous act because she doesn't want her father remembered for what he actually did.

While I do partially agree with you, releasing the information wouldn't undo the damage already done; it just ends up causing more damage to the Quarian cause.

[tj987654321]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

tj987654321 wrote...
There is one major difference in the example you give: Tali has been a friend of Shepard's for three years, and two of those years, she had no contact with Shepard. So she truly only knew Shepard for one single year. Completely different from a lifetime friend.

Andaius20 said Tali was one of Shepard's "truest friends".

My analogy was keeping that thought in mind.

I'm not sure, does Tali ever say that Shepard is one of her "truest friends"?

[Khirzask]

I like Garrus.

[tj987654321]

Khirzask wrote...

I like Garrus.

Good job staying on topic, because we can't.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

tj987654321 wrote...
While I do partially agree with you,
releasing the information wouldn't undo the damage already done; it just
ends up causing more damage to the Quarian cause.

Maybe Rael shouldn't have done it then? They were his decisions, he should take some responsibility, or at the very least the crimes should not be covered up.

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Yes, I'm also aware that pointing out atrocities committed by their countrymen can actually make some people more intolerant or cause intolerance to grow where it wasn't there before.  Some people feel like it produces an idea of "guilt by association" and they are being held accountable for something other people did.  I felt this way myself while taking certain classes in college and became very angry at certain groups for a while that I previously harbored no ill will towards.  Teaching about atrocities does not always prevent them.  Some times it can actually give people ideas on how to commit them.  Now thanks to such teaching, much of the population  has a pretty good idea of what it takes to make a fairly effective totalitarian regime, how to use propaganda, and how to use guerilla tactics to elongate wars.  Is that always a good thing?

This whole paragraph seems incredibly tangential. Are you saying that history shouldn't be taught because sometimes knowledge can be dangerous? Or are you just trying to muck up the issue?

Seems to me you're making an awful lot of assumptions on what could happen, not even what might happen. By that same notion it seems I personally could make the argument that aiding Tali in covering up war crimes is dangerous because if the truth is ever revealed then Tali can be tried yet again for treason and actually be found guilty.

I understand that teaching about atrocities does not always prevent them. I'm also aware that educating people about atrocities is a very good way to prevent them.

At the very least, I think the citizens who lost their lives on that ship deserve the truth to be shared so that it might not happen again. To cover up what happened is dishonest, disrespectful, and disgusting.
And why would you hide them? Because some engineer girl doesn't want her dead daddy to get in trouble?

[Inquisitor Recon]

There are plenty of reasons to hate Tali. But I can't think of any to hate Garrus. He follows orders, has the experience to be useful, and has his share of amusing comments.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 20 août 2010 - 01:15 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I like Garrus since, he dosent go "BLAH U IS WITH CERBERUS!!"



He trusts shep, and I like that, although only getting like two convos is lame as maleshep.

[tj987654321]

[quote]Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Maybe Rael shouldn't have done it then? They were his decisions, he should take some responsibility, or at the very least the crimes should not be covered up.

[quote\\


Rael actions were definitely wrong, no doubt. However, the information ends up causing even more damage and turmoil. It was better to blame the Heretics on the attack then to divide the Quarians by revealing the true culprit. Additionally, choosing to reveal the information is a renegade choice.

[Kaiser Shepard]

tj987654321 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Maybe Rael shouldn't have done it then? They were his decisions, he should take some responsibility, or at the very least the crimes should not be covered up.

Rael actions were definitely wrong, no doubt. However, the information ends up causing even more damage and turmoil. It was better to blame the Heretics on the attack then to divide the Quarians by revealing the true culprit. Additionally, choosing to reveal the information is a renegade choice.

You guys are making it way too easy for her to just waltz all over you.

[fortunesque]

tj987654321 wrote...



Rael actions were definitely wrong, no doubt. However, the information ends up causing even more damage and turmoil. It was better to blame the Heretics on the attack then to divide the Quarians by revealing the true culprit. Additionally, choosing to reveal the information is a renegade choice.

Sorry, but I have to step in here again and point out the fallacy that renegade somehow automatically equals an "evil" decision. I believe you're also the individual that said that seeing things in black and white is "evil" as well.

So, which is it? Are renegade decisions inherently evil? Or is seeing stuff in black and white not evil? 

Modifié par fortunesque, 20 août 2010 - 01:26 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

tj987654321 wrote...
Rael actions were definitely wrong, no doubt. However, the information ends up causing even more damage and turmoil. It was better to blame the Heretics on the attack then to divide the Quarians by revealing the true culprit. Additionally, choosing to reveal the information is a renegade choice.

So what if it's a renegade choice?

Oh, yeah, I forgot that all renegade decisions are evil by default, right?

And I prefer to make my major Shepard decisions without meta-gaming knowledge. I try to pick what my Shepard would do. And I honestly do not see my paragon Shepard hiding treason and war crimes for the sake of one girl's feelings.

BioWare made that a "renegade" choice because they wrote it as if the entire thing was about Tali. So, yes, in regards of the decision being based around Tali it is "renegade" because it's not what she wants. In regards to actual morals and legal issues, not so much renegade.

[Andaius20]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Yet what good does it do to reveal those crimes when Rael'Zorah is dead and all the geth he experimented on are dead as well?  With your dad in that scenario you just painted, there is a reason to report it as there could be a breach in security or something that needs to be tended to.  Shepard nullified everything Rael was doing.

Are you familiar with the idea that history should be taught and remembered so that atrocities do not repeat themselves?

The quarians have a RIGHT to know why an entire ship full of civilians and citizens is destroyed, those people dead.

Tali asks you to aid her in a treasonous act because she doesn't want her father remembered for what he actually did.

However the matter was cleared up whe nyou reach the end. Tali asked that you hide the data fro mthe public so that her father can be rememebred for is history of helping the fleet instead of having that all erased when they wipe him from there records. Also The Admirals clearly know what went on in there anyway. Hell you can tell Han about it right afterwards.  So it would be ok for the info to get released and then possible cause a civil war? 

So averting civil war, or devestating war with the Geth = equals to her being Selfish? 

[Fiannawolf]

To be honest, Im "meh" at best when it comes to Garrus and Tali. Never understood why they got as popular as they did.

[tj987654321]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

tj987654321 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Maybe Rael shouldn't have done it then? They were his decisions, he should take some responsibility, or at the very least the crimes should not be covered up.

Rael actions were definitely wrong, no doubt. However, the information ends up causing even more damage and turmoil. It was better to blame the Heretics on the attack then to divide the Quarians by revealing the true culprit. Additionally, choosing to reveal the information is a renegade choice.

You guys are making it way too easy for her to just waltz all over you.

It's fun watching her get flustered.

[Andaius20]

It's not for one girls feelings alone...of did you forget the whole reason for the trail in the first place?

Modifié par Andaius20, 20 août 2010 - 01:29 .

[fortunesque]

tj987654321 wrote...


It's fun watching her get flustered.

Trust me, she's far from flustered. 

[MadCat221]

All of the Take A Third Options, option 3a, 3b, and 3c all basically make Rael's crime ambiguous, and focus instead on Tali and how she couldn't have been able to do it. One expounds at length the feats and deeds of Tali, another calls the Admirals out and hopes someone in the crowd can take it from there, and another is a sharp-tongued furious indignation at the Admirals for scapegoating her.

Politics are messy.

And also... isn't this about the other squaddie from ME1?

Modifié par MadCat221, 20 août 2010 - 01:34 .

[Andaius20]

fortunesque wrote...

tj987654321 wrote...



Rael actions were definitely wrong, no doubt. However, the information ends up causing even more damage and turmoil. It was better to blame the Heretics on the attack then to divide the Quarians by revealing the true culprit. Additionally, choosing to reveal the information is a renegade choice.

Sorry, but I have to step in here again and point out the fallacy that renegade somehow automatically equals an "evil" decision. I believe you're also the individual that said that seeing things in black and white is "evil" as well.

So, which is it? Are renegade decisions inherently evil? Or is seeing stuff in black and white not evil? 

eh I'm of the opinion that renegade goes from "being a douchebag" to people to down right Evil. I play paragade 100% P about 40% R Most of the renegade responses seem to be in the Shep being a jerk, but not evil category.

Modifié par Andaius20, 20 août 2010 - 01:36 .