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Is there a person who DOESN'T like Garrus?


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#376
Mystranna Kelteel

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
As a historian, I could not disagree with you more.  Namely because history is not like mathematics.  It is not just a long list of incontestable facts or formulas.  The dates are sure.  But the motivations people had for what they did are open to interpretation and such interpretations are often adjusted to suit the agenda of the person or institution doing the teaching.  Teaching history is not a panacea.  Sometimes it helps.  Sometimes it doesn't.  That is largely dependent on who is teaching, where the teaching is happening, what is being taught, and who the audience is.


Yeah, sure. So you're arguing that my reasoning is ambiguous, and so is yours. Hey, that's helpful! :D


Those guys willingly participated in the project.  They weren't slaves or captives and many of them probably believed in what they were doing.  They are not unwitting victims' of Rael's foolishness.  Rather they are victims of their collective foolishness.


So you assume. You do not know every person on that ship and what their motives and information clearances were.

Actually in that situation, there are no certainties.  I can't tell if you are lying about the 100 dollars or if the button works or whatever.  In that spot, the responsible thing to do is weigh potential consequences and decide based on them because one consequence is obviously much worse than the other.  This situation does not possess the ambiguity of Tali's trial.  It is axiomatic that I should err on the side of not getting a city blown up on the chance that you are telling the truth.


I figured you would say this after I typed it. The 100 dollar bill is a guarantee in the example.

Of course, here I could also point out that Tali's friendship is also not a guarantee, as she could be lying for whatever reason, be it to test you to see if you're will to betray her people or what-have-you.


Supposition.  Impossible to know.


What, you mean like all your points? At least my reasonings pertain to more people than Tali's feelings.


Actually this thread is about Garrus.  And the rest of that statement is unqualified and subjective.


I was referring to this specific discussion, not the entire thread.

But, okay, I don't see much of a purpose in arguing with someone who just points out that the nature of the world is subjective. We are arguing opinions here after all. If you disagree, cool. If you have nothing else to say aside from, "That's subjective!" and "That's dependent on factors A through F!" then I'm not sure what your true purpose is. Mayhap to waste our time?

#377
Andaius20

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Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Boy come ME3 some will be a bit sorry.


No...

ME2 decisions are not going to be that important to ME3. They certainly won't affect the battle with the reapers, as that will have to be contained within ME3 alone to cater to those who did not play the other games.


I'm guessing it has somethign to do with "dark matter" they keep on forshadowing. ^_^

#378
Clover Rider

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tj987654321 wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

tj987654321 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

tj987654321 wrote...
It's renegade because of the distress it causes. Friends and families who lost loved ones on that ship would be better off not knowing the truth. Think about why the Council is covering up the truth about the "geth attacks". Do you think civilians learned about how the Council had legitimate information about Soverign, but choose to not act, causing millions of lives to be lost?


So you think covering up those crimes are going to magically make the quarians unite?

The quarians are split. That's why this happened in the first place. Rael thought it was best to do his experiements, another quarian group wants peace with the geth, others want flat out war, Xen wants to "enslave" them again...

That's not going to change. Maybe revealing the truth about what Rael was doing is what the quarians really need. Maybe they need to address these deeply seeded issues in their society instead of sweeping them under the rug and letting them build to a powder keg.

But again, meta gaming.


Do we really know the truth about every major event throughout our history?  Maybe the truth would help the situation? Maybe not?

(On a side note: this is why Mass Effect is so awesome; look at how we formed our opinions on a fictional situation. Neither opinion is completely right or wrong.)

Most don't know carp about WW2 and that was not long ago <_<.


Exactly, but I was not just talking about that. Think about some much more recent events that have occured and still we do not have the entire truth.

Well he who has power has the power to lie <_<.

#379
tj987654321

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Some Geth wrote...

tj987654321 wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

tj987654321 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

tj987654321 wrote...
It's renegade because of the distress it causes. Friends and families who lost loved ones on that ship would be better off not knowing the truth. Think about why the Council is covering up the truth about the "geth attacks". Do you think civilians learned about how the Council had legitimate information about Soverign, but choose to not act, causing millions of lives to be lost?


So you think covering up those crimes are going to magically make the quarians unite?

The quarians are split. That's why this happened in the first place. Rael thought it was best to do his experiements, another quarian group wants peace with the geth, others want flat out war, Xen wants to "enslave" them again...

That's not going to change. Maybe revealing the truth about what Rael was doing is what the quarians really need. Maybe they need to address these deeply seeded issues in their society instead of sweeping them under the rug and letting them build to a powder keg.

But again, meta gaming.


Do we really know the truth about every major event throughout our history?  Maybe the truth would help the situation? Maybe not?

(On a side note: this is why Mass Effect is so awesome; look at how we formed our opinions on a fictional situation. Neither opinion is completely right or wrong.)

Most don't know carp about WW2 and that was not long ago <_<.


Exactly, but I was not just talking about that. Think about some much more recent events that have occured and still we do not have the entire truth.

Well he who has power has the power to lie <_<.


Correct, and it looks like we do not have the power to lie. So we are useless.Image IPB

Modifié par tj987654321, 20 août 2010 - 02:01 .


#380
Andaius20

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Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

tj987654321 wrote...
It's renegade because of the distress it causes. Friends and families who lost loved ones on that ship would be better off not knowing the truth. Think about why the Council is covering up the truth about the "geth attacks". Do you think civilians learned about how the Council had legitimate information about Soverign, but choose to not act, causing millions of lives to be lost?


So you think covering up those crimes are going to magically make the quarians unite?

The quarians are split. That's why this happened in the first place. Rael thought it was best to do his experiements, another quarian group wants peace with the geth, others want flat out war, Xen wants to "enslave" them again...

That's not going to change. Maybe revealing the truth about what Rael was doing is what the quarians really need. Maybe they need to address these deeply seeded issues in their society instead of sweeping them under the rug and letting them build to a powder keg.

But again, meta gaming.


It would do a hell of a lot less damage then throwing gas on the embers don't you think? ^_^

#381
Clover Rider

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tj987654321 wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

tj987654321 wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

tj987654321 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

tj987654321 wrote...
It's renegade because of the distress it causes. Friends and families who lost loved ones on that ship would be better off not knowing the truth. Think about why the Council is covering up the truth about the "geth attacks". Do you think civilians learned about how the Council had legitimate information about Soverign, but choose to not act, causing millions of lives to be lost?


So you think covering up those crimes are going to magically make the quarians unite?

The quarians are split. That's why this happened in the first place. Rael thought it was best to do his experiements, another quarian group wants peace with the geth, others want flat out war, Xen wants to "enslave" them again...

That's not going to change. Maybe revealing the truth about what Rael was doing is what the quarians really need. Maybe they need to address these deeply seeded issues in their society instead of sweeping them under the rug and letting them build to a powder keg.

But again, meta gaming.


Do we really know the truth about every major event throughout our history?  Maybe the truth would help the situation? Maybe not?

(On a side note: this is why Mass Effect is so awesome; look at how we formed our opinions on a fictional situation. Neither opinion is completely right or wrong.)

Most don't know carp about WW2 and that was not long ago <_<.


Exactly, but I was not just talking about that. Think about some much more recent events that have occured and still we do not have the entire truth.

Well he who has power has the power to lie <_<.


Correct, and it looks like we do not have the power to lie. So we are useless.Image IPB

Oh I can lie at my dojo ;).

#382
Mystranna Kelteel

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Andaius20 wrote...
It would do a hell of a lot less damage then throwing gas on the embers don't you think? ^_^


Or it could create a small burst that fizzles out with diplomacy rather than letting it build to an A-bomb level explosion.

#383
Kaiser Shepard

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tj987654321 wrote...

Correct, and it looks like we do not have the power to lie.

It looks like you guys don't have the power to stop Mystranna from besting the three of you combined, either.

Mys, you are so awesome. Please marry me!

#384
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Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Boy come ME3 some will be a bit sorry.


No...

ME2 decisions are not going to be that important to ME3. They certainly won't affect the battle with the reapers, as that will have to be contained within ME3 alone to cater to those who did not play the other games.


I wouldn't be so sure about that......:)

#385
tj987654321

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Can everyone quickly answer this question for me: Is Tail selfish?

#386
Clover Rider

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

tj987654321 wrote...

Correct, and it looks like we do not have the power to lie.

It looks like you guys don't have the power to stop Mystranna from besting the three of you combined, either.

Mys, you are so awesome. Please marry me!

I have seen better on better forums :innocent:.

#387
Andaius20

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Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Andaius20 wrote...
It would do a hell of a lot less damage then throwing gas on the embers don't you think? ^_^


Or it could create a small burst that fizzles out with diplomacy rather than letting it build to an A-bomb level explosion.


my experiance is that the A-bomb level explosions happen because of the "truth getting out before the public is ready. My "perfect" plan for the Trial would be to Publicly have Tali's father rememberd for the good he did for the fleet, then privately have a meeting with the important govern't leader and reviel wha treally went on. So they can take steps to minimize political and civil damage.

#388
Mystranna Kelteel

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...
It looks like you guys don't have the power to stop Mystranna from besting the three of you combined, either.

Mys, you are so awesome. Please marry me!


It wouldn't work out. You're a male and I'm a female. We're jsut too different.

#389
Mystranna Kelteel

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Andaius20 wrote...
my experiance is that the A-bomb level explosions happen because of the "truth getting out before the public is ready. My "perfect" plan for the Trial would be to Publicly have Tali's father rememberd for the good he did for the fleet, then privately have a meeting with the important govern't leader and reviel wha treally went on. So they can take steps to minimize political and civil damage.


What is the extent of your experience? If you're going to offer that as evidence you need to elaborate on what your experiences are and why they make you an expert.

#390
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One can't "argue" opinions unless there have good reasons for those opinions. Otherwise, we are just stating a bunch of arbitrary crap akin to "my favorite color is blue." I am pointing out that I think the vast majority of your reasons for hating Tali are based on illogical assumptions. If you hate Tali "just because" or for a truckload of reasons that is perfectly fine and you have every right to do so. Likewise, I can like her "just because" or for a truckload of reasons. I am not interested in debating about opinions floating in the air with no backing because it would be like Jerry Springer, pointless and sensationalist.



And all this ambiguity is precisely my point. It is a VERY ambiguous situation and it is very hard to make blanket moral statements that accurately reflect the whole thing. I made decisions based on the assumptions I thought contained the most surety, namely Tali's friendship and what she wanted. You made your decision based on other ones. And I suppose that is all there is to say here. I explained why I choose what I did and so did you so I guess that's that.

#391
Andaius20

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Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Andaius20 wrote...
my experiance is that the A-bomb level explosions happen because of the "truth getting out before the public is ready. My "perfect" plan for the Trial would be to Publicly have Tali's father rememberd for the good he did for the fleet, then privately have a meeting with the important govern't leader and revel what really went on. So they can take steps to minimize political and civil damage.


What is the extent of your experience? If you're going to offer that as evidence you need to elaborate on what your experiences are and why they make you an expert.


My experiance is just watching and learning about stuff that happens in the world today. ^_^ 

#392
Mystranna Kelteel

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

One can't "argue" opinions unless there have good reasons for those opinions. Otherwise, we are just stating a bunch of arbitrary crap akin to "my favorite color is blue." I am pointing out that I think the vast majority of your reasons for hating Tali are based on illogical assumptions.


How is it an "illogical assumption" that Tali ending the friendship because you didn't do as she requested is selfish?

You don't do what Tali wants; Tali throws a veritable hissy fit.

Seems simple to me.

#393
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Amendment, I suppose my point is that my idea of what constitutes correct or incorrect action fluctuates depending on a lot of factors at hand. I have a moral standard that I use as a guide, but how closely I adhere to that standard depends on the specific variables of the situation.

#394
Mystranna Kelteel

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Andaius20 wrote...
My experiance is just watching and learning about stuff that happens in the world today. ^_^ 


...such as?

#395
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Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
How is it an "illogical assumption" that Tali ending the friendship because you didn't do as she requested is selfish?

You don't do what Tali wants; Tali throws a veritable hissy fit.

Seems simple to me.


I meant your opinion that handing over the geth data was the best choice.  And I could also add that placing your moral standard above Tali's (and Tali's standard has a lot to with loyalty and family and cohesion and so on) could be interpreted as a selfish thing to do.  You are saying that what you are doing is right, what she wants is wrong, and damn the consequences.  And that is precisely what Tali is thinking about revealing the data about her father.   

#396
Mystranna Kelteel

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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
I meant your opinion that handing over the geth data was the best choice.  And I could also add that placing your moral standard above Tali's (and Tali's standard has a lot to with loyalty and family and cohesion and so on) could be interpreted as a selfish thing to do.  You are saying that what you are doing is right, what she wants is wrong, and damn the consequences.  And that is precisely what Tali is thinking about revealing the data about her father.   


No, I'm saying that her telling me I'm not her friend because I didn't do what she requested makes her selfish. She doesn't even listen to your explanations. She just says that her friend would have done exactly what she wanted.

#397
Andaius20

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Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Andaius20 wrote...
My experiance is just watching and learning about stuff that happens in the world today. ^_^ 


...such as?


top of my head, Nixion. Sorry am almost zombie typing can't come up with a good one right now. :pinched:


and with this I'm out. Night Myst always fun to debate, even though your wrong! :P ^_^

Modifié par Andaius20, 20 août 2010 - 02:26 .


#398
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Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
I meant your opinion that handing over the geth data was the best choice.  And I could also add that placing your moral standard above Tali's (and Tali's standard has a lot to with loyalty and family and cohesion and so on) could be interpreted as a selfish thing to do.  You are saying that what you are doing is right, what she wants is wrong, and damn the consequences.  And that is precisely what Tali is thinking about revealing the data about her father.   


No, I'm saying that her telling me I'm not her friend because I didn't do what she requested makes her selfish. She doesn't even listen to your explanations. She just says that her friend would have done exactly what she wanted.


When I play my Sheps they have already given her their reasons for why they want to reveal the data and she has rebutted it with her own reasons.  We've both explained our stance to the other and it's apparent she won't budge.  Why is it selfish to have a make or break issue in a relationship with someone? That may mean you aren't really good friend material after all, but it doesn't have to mean you are selfish.  I don't understand how refusing to compromise your morality or what you feel is best makes you selfish.  Stubborn, okay.  Foolish, perhaps even.  But not necessarily selfish.    

#399
IntrepidProdigy

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Hmm... how 'bout dat dere Garrus?

#400
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IntrepidProdigy wrote...

Hmm... how 'bout dat dere Garrus?


Yea, I'm with you.  I shouldn't have come back here.  It was stupid of me.  I am contributing to the problem so now I am gonna leave for real.