260 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaalyah]

Well, since we were going A LOT off topic in another thread,  that is this I am opening this new thread for continuing the discussion without annoying the readers of the other thread!
So, the topic is... Bishop... being he a full round character, we were trying to analyse his personality and why he had behaved in that way in the different part of the OC.
Since I am playing also with the romance mod by Domi, and since that mod is quite famous, I suppose we could also speak about his behaviour in that mod... and in this we have an advantage, since the author is actually an user of this forum

[Thiefy]

well since i only ever played as female i am wondering what the difference in dialouge is between a male pc who is friendly with bishop and a female pc who is friendly with bishop

[Vaalyah]

I suppose a lot of jealousy with Casavir is not shown if you're playing a male... but this is only a guess!

[Mistress Tasharra]

Well, I only ever played as a male character once, and I have to say that I did not enjoy it as much. I felt that the game played out better, from a roleplaying point of view, as a female character. Mostly due to the issues between the PC, Bishop, and Casavir. I found it made things all the more personal, and while I still think he went from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Stupid during his betrayal, it's... how to word this... less Chaotic Stupid if you had a character befriend (romance) him. Also, the parallells between a female PC who befriended (romanced) Bishop and the Betrayer in Mask of the Betrayer are quite evident. I was somewhat angered by how that ended, mind you.

I think that's a bit offtopic, though.

Point being is that I always liked Bishop as a character, since the moment I first encountered him in the Sunken Flagon on my first playthrough...

Bishop: "If I wanted a wench I'd go to the local brothel."

PC:"Say hello to your mother while you're there."

Bishop:"Hah!"

Too often do we find Chaotic Evil characters who aren't Chaotic Evil, but simply Chaotic Stupid. The only thing I could never quite figure out is why he decided to stay on with the PC after his debt was paid. He always claimed it was because he didn't feel his debt was paid in full, but I never believed that to be the case. I remember reading that someone thought it was due to him hoping to find some sort of 'redemption' with the PC, but I also don't think that true.

Mind you, this is just my opinion, but I always thought Bishop was interesting in that he both hates and love what he has become. One thing I often noticed was that he really enjoyed bring the PC down to his level, which is why I found roleplaying a PC that was 'corrupted' by Bishop very enjoyable.

Mind you, I haven't played the game in a couple years now. I think after I finish my current Jade Empire playthrough I'll have to load up Neverwinter Nights II. Hehe.

[I_Raps]

Mistress Tasharra wrote...

The only thing I could never quite figure out is why he decided to stay on with the PC after his debt was paid. He always claimed it was because he didn't feel his debt was paid in full, but I never believed that to be the case. I remember reading that someone thought it was due to him hoping to find some sort of 'redemption' with the PC, but I also don't think that true.

I just got a bit of dialogue last night - for the very first time - that covers that.  He said something to the effect that he hadn't had so much fun and challenge for a long time;  that this is what he always wanted to do.

[Mistress Tasharra]

I_Raps wrote...

Mistress Tasharra wrote...

The only thing I could never quite figure out is why he decided to stay on with the PC after his debt was paid. He always claimed it was because he didn't feel his debt was paid in full, but I never believed that to be the case. I remember reading that someone thought it was due to him hoping to find some sort of 'redemption' with the PC, but I also don't think that true.

I just got a bit of dialogue last night - for the very first time - that covers that.  He said something to the effect that he hadn't had so much fun and challenge for a long time;  that this is what he always wanted to do.

Hmmm, that sounds familar. Maybe I simply don't remember it. I do recall him saying that he enjoyed the challenge, but also that he didn't consider his debt fully paid or something along those lines.

I really want to play now.

[Vaalyah]

Mistress Tasharra wrote...



and while I still think he went from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Stupid during his betrayal

:-D :-D :-D I cannot stop laughing! It's wonderful... Chaotic Stupid!!!



However, today I checked on youtube. Once you come back to the Flagon after rescuing Shandra, he tells you that he wants to stay in the party. If you say that he is welcome, he will answer that it was a long time since he amused himself so much. Plus he always (whatever option you would choose) says to your uncle that he wants to fully pay his debt... But to say the truth... I don't think this make any sense.



The debt was already paid and Bishop, once you arrive at Crossroad, says that he can't stand to take orders from others. So, why joining the group? o_O if you play a female, it does make sense that he wants to join for your PC... but if you play a male...



The first time I entered the Flagon, I spoke with everyone, the first being Bishop (he was the nearest to the door). I can't remember the exact words, but they were similar to:



B: So what? Come back again after I have drunk 2 or 3 more beers, so I will think you are charming.



PC: [her knee in his groin]



Just for your info... my PC has a 20 in Charisma without modifications, but she was wearing a cloak with +2 on Charisma. So I wonder who on Earth Bishop thinks could be charming... However, in that first moment, my PC knew he was the man for her :-D

[SFF19]

It was actually understandable, given his nature.

Let's face it, Bishop is a murderous sociopath.  Moreover, he's a murderous sociopath who makes a point of always been on the "winning" side, if he bothers taking a side at all.  At the point of his betrayel, the King of Shadows had a major advantage over the heroes, so he decided that his side was the "winning" side.

[Vaalyah]

Sincerely, I don't think he left for this. I mean, he could simply run away and see what would have happened from a distant point of observation... of course it is also stupid to take the side of someone who is trying to destroy everything (not a clever choice in my opinion).

So I suppose there must be more to justify his action...

[Nightwoe]

****NIGHTWOE'S PSYCHIATRIC EVALUATION OF BISHOP****

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++SPOILERS++++++++++++++++++++++

In Nightwoe's opinion....



"Getting tied down, even for a feeling for someone, just isn't my style..." Bishop turns on the female PC *because* he feels attracted to her. In his mind, the only way to get rid of being tied to you, is to kill you, and he figures he'll just have to get over it/forget it. All leading to this was when he burned his own village to the ground, despite the fact that anyone he even just slightly cared about ignored his warning and were still inside the village when it burned. That he killed them all somewhat weighs on him, but he calls himself weak in his own mind, slowly degrading that one and only sense of regret. THEN there's Dunkin. Bishop despised Dunkin for tying him to the burning of his home village AND holding it over his head (we don't know how long, it could have been weeks, months, maybe even a year or two??) When Bishop decided to "continue on" with the PC after rescuing Shandra, he was slightly attracted, BUT he told himself that killing you, Duncan's neice, would be the perfect revenge for Duncan holding him on his 'debt'. However, over time, his attraction grows, though part of him tries to deny it, (after Act2, when Torio is at your mercy, if you speak to her with Casavir and Bishop in your party, she will say "No wonder the paladin watches your every move; and the ranger simply tries not to." as a response if you say she might change her mind once she see's what the PC is doing in defence of Neverwinter)



One thing that I saw in the flirt pack was after West Harbor is burnt to the ground, Bishop says something along the lines of "sorry, I'm saying all the wrong things. I was really trying to soften the blow." I think he would be more likely to voice that you should be glad the place is gone, it was full of weak willed farmers that couldn't defend themselves, therefore, they deserved to die, and he would expect (or hope) the PC shares this sentament, showing that she understood him, though addressed passivly.

"If you're that hard up about it, maybe you should have burned with them." <--Bishop on the defensive if the female PC rejects his sentament, though he doesn't mean it. Cruel words are his sheild. (I made that up, by the way, that's not in the flirt pack or Original content, it's just what I think he would say)

One of the things I DID agree with with the Flirt pack was a talk he had explaining something about "Everyone is born with dirt inside of them, just sometimes they die before they discover it," or something close to that. Because HE thinks he's rotten, he seeks it in everyone else as well.



Okay, I'm done this part. The rest of my opinion I'll post later...

[Vaalyah]

:_( buhuaaaaaaaaaaah I can't read the spoiler, I can't read the spoiler! Please, don't post spoilers!!! I get so sad that I still can't finish my game :_(

I am happy to read everyone's opinions but please, just write opinions, no fact :-(



So I've just read your post here and there, trying to avoid facts and focusing on opinions.



I haven't finished the game yet, so my opinions are "partial", but I'd give a try to express my 2 cents that, of course, could surely change as I proceed with the plot.



Bishop is bad. Everything and everyone in his life had said to him that. And he grew up with that conviction in his mind. Evil people don't think of being evil. A serial killer doesn't consider himself "evil", a husband who beats his wife, doesn't think to be evil either. Psychology has had huge problems during years to explain this and I suppose it still can't. Who are the people who think at themselves as evil?

Usually those that, as children, have been called "evil" many times (no, I am not joking) because they develop a sort of bad image of themselves. Well, I think Bishop is affected by this sort of syndrome. He raised considering himself as evil and bad, and he simply spent the rest of his life doing 2 opposite things: from one side, he tried to "fulfil his destiny", being evil and mean; on the other side, he felt a sort of attraction to what is good.

If I am evil and I am ok with that, I don't have the necessity to "avoid" the good or to constantly point out that I am evil and that good is bad. I'd simply don't care. So, from this point of view, if he is just evil and doesn't care about being good, why escaping? You have find a girlfriend, enjoy the thing as long as you can. Where is the need for running away?

So, yes, I think Bishop feels two opposite strengths: his "evil" side that is trying to keep the PC at his same level and his "good" side that is trying to raise himself at the PC level. Maybe, in the inner part of his being, he WANTS to be good, but he's so afraid of discovering that he's not able of being good (as all those children who believe to be bad), that he prefers to run away. You know, living with the doubt of being evil, instead of having the certainty of it. Does this make sense? I hope.



So, I think that in the romance pack they had followed this path: a Bishop continuously oscillating between his necessity of showing everyone that he's evil (SPOILER like in Ember, speaking with Nya... he has no reason to state that love is futile, that love-presents are stupid, and whatever, but he liked to point out this kind of things in the presence of his own sentimental interest, the PC, that is, frankly, a quite stupid behaviour! END SPOILER), just to adhere to his "character" :-D and at the opposite, maybe unselfconsciously, trying to see if there's a way for him to walk in the patch of rectitude. So, in the romance pack you can see that, in certain moments, Bishop does good things, but tries hard to "hide" them behind an evil sense (SPOILER like before fighting Lorne, part of the OC, when he offers to fight in behalf of the PC, but saying that he "might or might not", as like he doesn't care at all of the PC life END SPOILER)



As alcoholics don't want to join AA because they fear to see that their last chance could be wasted, Bishop escapes in the end because he doesn't want to discover if he is really evil.



My confused opinion. I hope it would make at least some sense...

[Zaxares]

While I have to give Bishop credit for being a very memorable character who stirs a lot of passionate debate... I loathe the man. LOATHE him. He's an arrogant, treacherous bully who has not a shred of compassion or empathy for anybody other than himself. (Which admittedly, is exactly what he should be as a Chaotic Evil character.) I actually would have been happy to let him go his own way after the end of Act I, but noooo... Obsidian had to string him along with my group. >.<



It should be noted that I played through the OC without the romance pack, however, so my impression of Bishop will differ to those who have.

[Vaalyah]

O_O

I would say that I LOVE Bishop! :-D

Well, in my opinion he doesn't behave like a CE character, but more like a CN... I think that a CE character is a person who has always to pursue the evil path, while in the game, Bishop just tends to do his own affairs till he is compelled to join the group. A thing that I still find strange, because a chaotic character should tend to "forget" about debt. Accepting Duncan's request is more suitable to a lawful or at lest neutral personality, than to a chaotic one. However, my idea is that he's more CN than CE. At the end of the game (that I still haven't seen, but from what I've understood, Bishop betrays the group) he left just to "protect"himself, or because the PC has fallen for Casavir. Both of this option are not under the "evil category", since in both case he is not trying to hurt people just for the pleasure of doing it, but for his own "safeness". Ok, he doesn't behave well, but it's normal (and not evil at all) conservation instinct to put ourselves before the others. So, in this sense, in my opinion he's more CN than CE.



About the romance pack: having the Italian version of the game, it is easy for me to see which are the original parts and which have been added. However, I can assure you that I adored Bishop since the first time I entered the Flagon (far before installing the pack). :-D

[angry_peon]

I agree Bishop as reason to stay with a femalce PC. But why would he stay with a male?
Well, shortly before (or after, can't remember exactly, but it was close) he joins the party permanently, you can see a conversation between Garrius and his minions, where he mentions a "new ally".
Guess, who I think, is that ally he mentiones...
So yeah, for me Bishop is already on Garrius' payroll, when he decides to join the group.

Modifié par Varhjhin, 25 septembre 2010 - 07:24 .

[Vaalyah]

I had had the same idea as you, but there was something wrong in it. Of course, at least if there were other dialogues deleted... However, if we have to take the game as it is, why, if Bishop was in contact with Luskan, he had not joined the party BEFORE?

I mean, if I am a spy, the basic idea is to stay right next to the person I have to spy. But Bishop has been compelled by Duncan to join so, there's something wrong with this hypothesis...

[I_Raps]

Vaalyah wrote...

I had had the same idea as you, but there was something wrong in it. Of course, at least if there were other dialogues deleted... However, if we have to take the game as it is, why, if Bishop was in contact with Luskan, he had not joined the party BEFORE?
I mean, if I am a spy, the basic idea is to stay right next to the person I have to spy. But Bishop has been compelled by Duncan to join so, there's something wrong with this hypothesis...

You'll learn a lot more about Bishop and Luskan at the end.  Patience.

[Vaalyah]

Where is patience? I had stopped my game since 3rd of August... I WANT TO PLAY BUAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA :_(

:-(

[Nightwoe]

Nice pick up, Varhjin, I never did pick up on that, though I've been through the game numorous times. I thought he was refering to the King of Shadows, though it still didn't completely make sense to me. We all know for the female PC why he- nevermind, spoiler...

Modifié par Nightwoe, 25 septembre 2010 - 11:19 .

[Zaxares]

@Varhijin: Actually, I always presumed that in that conversation Black Garius was talking about a certain warlock, who himself mentions that he "had help" escaping from his prison. The two of them were originally working together to uncover information about the King of Shadows (and since Garius technically wasn't trying to resurrect the King, it makes sense that Mr Warlock could have seen the benefits in working together).



Obviously the two of them had a falling out at some point, but I never pegged Bishop as being the ally in that conversation.



@Vaalyah: While I agree that Bishop doesn't exactly go out of his way to hurt people, I would still say that he's Evil for the fact that he finds it amusing or satisfying to see other people in pain or suffering. He has a kind of "hah! I would never get in that kind of situation because I'm stronger/smarter/don't let myself get attached, so you suck and are clearly inferior to me!" attitude.



I'm male though, and I only ever played NWN2 as a male character, so no doubt some of his charms were lost on me.

[Nightwoe]

LOL @ Zaxares. Trust me, your really not missing much from the female perspective. I think the only good line he had was "Ah, that's how I like my woman. Mean and cold-hearted. You warm my heart, you really do." in response to saying something about Casavir's faith can keep him warm. lol.

And I agree with Bishop being CE. He's DEFINATLY not neutral, in my opinion. No examples to support my claim this time...(it's almost midnight, too tired)

Modifié par Nightwoe, 26 septembre 2010 - 03:34 .

[Vaalyah]

@Zaxares: are you sure that "hah! I would never get in that kind of situation because I'm stronger/smarter/don't let myself get attached, so you suck and are clearly inferior to me!" means considering himself better? I had noticed in my life that usually, people who act and think in this way, do that because they are insecure of themselves. Really. So, in this point of view, that sentence simply suits perfectly what I think about him. He is insecure of himself, he hates himself, but to fell a bit better, says out louder that he's better than others... more to console himself!



Oh, why you are so bad with him? :-D My PC loved Bishop as soon as she entered the Flagon and listened to the usual sentence about the brothel!

[Nightwoe]

oh, Bishop is DEFINATLY insecure, and I agree that he hates himself, BUT not all the time. This brings me back to the "everyone as dirt inside," he is also talking about himself; actually, he might even be in a way refering to himself and his childhood to an extent, but we never got *that* juicy bit of information. *COUGHOBSIDEANFAILCOUGH*



(on a side note, though, maybe obsidean wanted the characters to have vague backgrounds so we could fill in the information as we imagined it? hmm...)

[Vaalyah]

I had thought that too (that the vague background was done on purpose) but in case, I am here, praying Obsidians right now: please, please, provide a patch with all the romance pieces that have not been included in the game!!!

:-D

[Nightwoe]

that wont happen...they finished NWN2 a while ago. No more patches will be released, i think.

[Vaalyah]

:_( you just broke my heart!