260 réponses à ce sujet

[bokhi]

@Vaal

Vaalyah wrote...

I am a bit puzzled: I haven't clearly understood why Bishop, instead of saving his own village, had burnt it. If all he wanted was being a hero, why rejecting his only possibility?

To my (admittedly spotty) recollection: Bishop's plan was to get the villagers out, and lure the Luskans in; afterwords, he'd light the village on fire (essentially; apparently he did the prep work beforehand) and kill all the Luskans that way. Makes sense, if you consider that they outnumbered him substantially (and assuming his village lacks the usual adventurer type). 

The villagers didn't listen to him (didn't trust him, I think) and refused to leave. Then the Luskans showed up and realized Bishop betrayed them. So then it came down to, be killed by Luskans, or light EVERYONE (including himself) on fire. 

He took option 2. He would have died, as well, had Duncan not shown up and saved him. 

To my recollection, Bishop actually wanted to die; apparently at that point he'd reached the ultimate low. What spurred it? I can only guess. The villager's rejection? The impossible choice he had to make? Both? I don't really know. 

Disclaimer: Like I said, I'm basing this on my ONE playthrough years ago. I still haven't managed to figure out if he leaves on his own or is taken during a Luskan raid, but if someone could clear that up for me, I'd be grateful!

About recovery: are you saying that for gaining his own soul back, he must fulfil all the 3 points of the list? Or that there are 3 ways?
Love the "forgiving" option. Since I haven't finished the OC yet (so, MotB is a far long target), I haven't read the "spoiler" part. However, my basic idea was 1) make Bishop starts doubting of his way of living 2) betrayal and end of game as in the OC 3) Meet Bishop in MotB with an alignment change (let's face it: death changes many things :-D ) into a CN character, 4) having Bishop playable during MotB. This has already been done (it's a mod called something like "Dark Soul" or similar), so it is possible. The first thing is imagining a suitable plot. Then there are the modding problems :-D

Yup. I think that if all three conditions are not fulfilled, he might have a psychological meltdown, as some of his erroneous (or perhaps merely unconstructive) viewpoints are actually what Freudians would call, "defensive mechanisms."

On the otherhand, it may be better for you to go for the literary redemption arc if you're plan is to have him come back and romance the PC during MotB. Or a mixture of the two (psychological believability with literary-styled redemption arc). 

oh, guys, you are all so expert in psychology! Now I understand why it was so difficult for me to follow all your posts!

Lol, I'm flattered you'd include me in that grouping, but as I've said, I'm only studying psychology at an undergraduate level, and I'm not even finished yet! It's highly likely that any of my profs or even TAs could tear apart my arguments like they were made of paper. 

Happily, this is the internet, and we're all experts here.  Internet WARRIORZ!!11

@KevL:

Hm, fine, how about if it was a mustard yellow shirt with black shoulder stripes? Rather apropos, no? XD

And I must say: your toolset skillz, they are l33t. I only ever dabbled with the Aurora Toolset (which I loved, but didn't have time to actually finish my module(s)), but the NWN2 toolset really intimidated me and I gave up really quick. 

U: Have skillz. Like a BOSS. XD

 

[kevL]

Scotty got to wear a red shirt,

but i'll give mine to Bishop ..

[bokhi]

kevL wrote...

Scotty got to wear a red shirt,

...But we are the next generation!

but i'll give mine to Bishop ..

Pretty sure that's overkill. He already has his sparkling personality going for him. :innocent:

[Vaalyah]

Can I have a shirt too? I want to be the scientific officer, a Vulcan one, please! [Live long and prosper!]

@ Bokhi: so, nice summary of Bishop's adventures. Now I can totally say: he wasn't evil, I wanted to save those people. Then, we he discovered we couldn't, he decided to kill himself (among the Luskans). No, this is not what, in my head, is the CE alignment. This is more a "scream for help". And, again, if he's not 100% evil, he can be help.
You said:
"On the otherhand, it may be better for you to go for the literary redemption arc if you're plan is to have him come back and romance the PC during MotB. Or a mixture of the two (psychological believability with literary-styled redemption arc). "
I haven't understood which is the "literary redemption arc". Sorry, I have been away too long, but lately my weeks are really TOO much full of things, so I come back home at 11 pm and I simply go to bed :-P
There was another option for my imaginary-plot: Bishop has been wounded by random magic enemy, he is in coma state, to save him, the PC needs to "enter" his mind world. In this sort of dream, the PC could help him not to get stuck in the "burning my villagers" thing. Then, once back in the real world, I already have a good option for his betrayal. This would allow the players a lot more"space" for making the relationship to grow in MotB. What do you think? (I am asking not only to Bokhi, but to whoever is interested. Do you think my 2 plots can be interesting?)

"Lol, I'm flattered you'd include me in that grouping, but as I've said, I'm only studying psychology at an undergraduate level, and I'm not even finished yet! It's highly likely that any of my profs or even TAs could tear apart my arguments like they were made of paper. "
Ok, so, as soon as I've finished to write it, I can send you MY psychological profile, so that you can study it and declare me a total mad :-D

[bokhi]

Vaalyah wrote...

Can I have a shirt too? I want to be the scientific officer, a Vulcan one, please! [Live long and prosper!]

Good call: science officers wear the blue, as it were, not the red. Wise, wise decision, my friend =) Dr. Vaal to the plotting room, stat~!

@ Bokhi: so, nice summary of Bishop's adventures. Now I can totally say: he wasn't evil, I wanted to save those people. Then, we he discovered we couldn't, he decided to kill himself (among the Luskans).

I think it's closer to say that he decided he'd take them out even if it meant going with them (and taking the village too). He's a bit ambiguous that way And I should make things clearer: to my recall, he said that when he realized he was dying, he was relieved. So I don't think he was thinking "I'm going to kill myself because I'm so miserable, I'm taking them with me!"; it was more, "I'm taking you all down with me! Oh wait, I'm dying. Well, that's not bad. It's all over now. Yay." 

Also I think that kind of moral grayzone (vindictiveness and pragmatism) is a cornerstone of his personality - he went in with good intentions, but when he was backed into a corner, he decided that he'd take them (the Luskans) down with him.

It's intriguing to me, because I tend to think that if he used the villagers as bait or a shield, he could have probably gotten away by himself. I mean, really Obsidian? There was no way he could have just run? It's his hometown; surely he knows the surrounding wilds better than the Luskans? But instead he decides to stay and burn 'em all. Interesting. He'd rather have the death of the villagers on his hands, rather than on Luskans? Or did he just figure they were necessary collateral, because he wanted to take the Luskans down, no matter what? It's a MYSTERY! 

Sorry, it's the lit student in me. I like character mysteries. 

No, this is not what, in my head, is the CE alignment. This is more a "scream for help". And, again, if he's not 100% evil, he can be help.

Hm, my assessment would be, he is indeed, hurting and damaged, but he's like a lone wolf (ohohoho!) licking his wounds and snarling at anyone who comes too near. I think he *does* need help, but in the OC, doesn't want to ask for it, and convinces himself he's just fine the way he is. DENIAL. It's a classic. =) But I agree, he can certainly be redeemed!

I haven't understood which is the "literary redemption arc". Sorry, I have been away too long, but lately my weeks are really TOO much full of things, so I come back home at 11 pm and I simply go to bed :-P

Lol, no need to apologize. Actually, I should probably apologize - you've said before that English isn't your first language so I told myself I'd use simpler language, but it seems I forget things quick. XD Sorry! 

A redemption arc in literature is where a character who is by most social terms considered evil goes through hardships that peak at a trial by fire and come out the other side stronger and a better person. Of course the caveat to this is: if the person is so, so evil that redemption would be rejected by the audience, instead of surviving his (it's usually a he, let's be honest) trial by fire, he dies heroically. (TV tropes calls this Redemption Equals Death). But yeah. Usually someone who's sorta-midline evil can reform and join the good guys and be best bros, provided he works at it. Of course, if we're going with a love theme as well, then the nature of the "work" (and who's doing it) tends to change a bit. But those are all small details. XD And sorry the first link's not the best explanation but it's all I could find on Google in a short time XD.

There was another option for my imaginary-plot: Bishop has been wounded by random magic enemy, he is in coma state, to save him, the PC needs to "enter" his mind world. In this sort of dream, the PC could help him not to get stuck in the "burning my villagers" thing. Then, once back in the real world, I already have a good option for his betrayal. This would allow the players a lot more"space" for making the relationship to grow in MotB. What do you think? (I am asking not only to Bokhi, but to whoever is interested. Do you think my 2 plots can be interesting?)

Hm, are you suggesting this for the OC? Because I think OC!Bishop would actually get extremely angry, even if it helped him - he's quite defensive in the OC, and very much about being his own man, so I can see this going horribly wrong. It might even make him very, very eager and happy to betray the KC, because how dare she! (In his mind.)

If it is a suggestion for MotB, I think it has more probability of success, because 1. we all know that the PC is the spirit-eater now, so post-dreamer's eye gain would give the PC the means to do it, and 2. Bishop is presumably less of a wound up porcupine. Of course, there will have had to be some development in Bishop before this dream-jaunt, because otherwise, once more, he would be really pissed at the invasion of his privacy. 

I think it's an interesting idea, but more fit for MotB if you wanted to implement it, because MotB is all about love, and the power of dreams/dreaming. Just my two cents. =)

Ok, so, as soon as I've finished to write it, I can send you MY psychological profile, so that you can study it and declare me a total mad :-D

Oh but Vaal, this is the "redeem Bishop" thread! We're ALL mad here! *Crazy cackle*

Modifié par bokhi, 09 octobre 2011 - 01:07 .

[I_Raps]

bokhi wrote...

A redemption arc in literature is where a character who is by most social terms considered evil goes through hardships that peak at a trial by fire and come out the other side stronger and a better person. Of course the caveat to this is: if the person is so, so evil that redemption would be rejected by the audience, instead of surviving his (it's usually a he, let's be honest) trial by fire, he dies heroically.

You know, for this to really work, Bishop has to realize that Casavir is better for Vaalyah.

Ask Ronald Colman or Humphrey Bogart.

"...Tis a far, far better thing that we'll always have Paris... er, Neverwinter."

Modifié par I_Raps, 09 octobre 2011 - 02:36 .

[bokhi]

I_Raps wrote...

You know, for this to really work, Bishop has to realize that Casavir is better for Vaalyah.

Ask Ronald Colman or Humphrey Bogart.

"...Tis a far, far better thing that we'll always have Paris... er, Neverwinter."

Hm, how so? Personally, I think there are a lot of ways redemption arcs can play out: whereas the "You're too good for me, good bye darling" is suitably dramatic, I never saw it as all that practical. And I'd like to point out, there are inmates who are rehabilitated, and go back to their families (including wives and kids) without any of that manufactured angst (there was already enough pain involved to start with, I should think). Granted, there are also those who are never *actually* rehabilitated and recividate back into the prison system, but individuals will be individuals...

And I'm sure you meant, "for the generic KC protagonist", right? XD 

Modifié par bokhi, 09 octobre 2011 - 03:17 .

[Vaalyah]

@Bokhi: :-D love the link you posted! I was a Vulcan scientific officer also in my (old) sessions of Star Trek RPG... let's say that scientific officer is something that suits me very well :-D

Do not worry: I do my best to follow your posts. You are so kind in explaining all these interesting things, I surely don't blame you for speaking in your own language :-P The problem is that I should improve my English. It is also useful for job ;-)

I haven't played MotB yet (to say the truth, my PC has reassembled the Gith sword and... stop... I have not been playing since March. MARCH!!! What a shame! But lately I have not time :-( ), so I didn't know it was all about love and dreams. However, since the story is this, I think I could move that dream-section in the expansion. So, go with the option one. I am writing it down in a decent manner, as soon as I have some basic plot info, you will get is by PM (or email).

@ all: guys, really, I can't understand this silly thing about men. If I'd think I am not enough for a person I love, I will do everything I can to improve and become adequate. Why men always think this idiocy like "I am not enough for you, go and find someone else"??? Bishop could think "I am not enough for the PC, so I'll do my best to improve and gain her trust". Much better!

[bokhi]

Vaalyah wrote...

I haven't played MotB yet (to say the truth, my PC has reassembled the Gith sword and... stop... I have not been playing since March. MARCH!!! What a shame! But lately I have not time :-( ),

D=

@ all: guys, really, I can't understand this silly thing about men. If I'd think I am not enough for a person I love, I will do everything I can to improve and become adequate. Why men always think this idiocy like "I am not enough for you, go and find someone else"??? Bishop could think "I am not enough for the PC, so I'll do my best to improve and gain her trust". Much better!

Lol, I wonder if it actually is a "guy" thing, though? I have never, not once, heard of a guy who left a girl (in RL, anyways) because he figured he wasn't "good enough" for her...I've known some couples where the guy always said that he wasn't "good enough" for his girlfriend, but they never left; one is married to said woman (and obviously has no intention of leaving) and the other got the boot because he was a deadbeat who was actually leeching off of her XD. 

I'm of the opinion the "I'm leaving because I'm not good enough" is actually a construct. That's my theory and I'm sticking with it  
...Or it's an excuse to jet in style. One or the other! 

(And as a general disclaimer, I've never heard of a girl doing that either. Usually such couples try to work out the issue like...you know, adults. Or they break up mutually. Ha. But anyways, my point being, less a gender thing and more a silly romantic construct thing.)

And in regards to Bishop, I think he'd be more of the "Well, I know I'm not good enough but **** you all, I want her so I'll work 'till I get her. Besides, she likes me more. You, tin-can man, can suck my ---!" I mean, he is pretty selfish, that Bishop, and I think it is a central facet of his character. Can't exactly give him a lobotomy in the name of redemption now, can we? >=D

Modifié par bokhi, 10 octobre 2011 - 02:13 .

[Vaalyah]

No, why? I totally love the "I'll show you how good I am" thing ^^ that's a thing I really would like to see in more people (well, guys) around :-D

[nino1979]

Why? Beacuse if you are to lobo Bishop,he would lose all his "remarkable" personality,and then you would get Casavir's twin..(sorry bit o sarcasm here,couldn't resist).But on other hand if somone could heal his mental wound maybe he would actually be a good guy...And girl for job is u Vaal

[bokhi]

@Val: Because I think the thing that people like about Bishop, is that he is, in fact, Bishop (as nino said quite well in his post), and to remain Bishop, there has to be certain steady features in his character. 

With that being said, I myself, cannot see Bishop as a person who is willing to let go of the good things in his life, once he realizes he has them; even when he's "Neutral", I imagine he's attitude will continue to drive people right up the wall. He's Bishop. He's mouthy and sarcastic and likely to cling to things that make him feel good, even when he's saving a burning orphanage with the PC (while complaining all the time, and also because the *things* that make him feel good have changed now to less "kick the puppy" and more "save the orphanage, get lucky with KC")

Added: Actually, yes, I can see Bishop saying (in his head): Well, I'll show you all how good I can be, all you doubters who said I'm good for nothing but burning down barns and betraying people who like me. 

But I can't see him expressing that by leaving the KC because he believes that she's "too good" for him; let's face it, how's he going to prove how good he is if she's not around to see it? The only reason he'd leave, I think, is if he needs some "me" time. So I guess in the end I agree with you after all, Val! He'd just express it in a very Bishop way. =) I think I misread you the first time XD. What I was disagreeing with was actually the previous poster (the leaving thing) but I think I do agree that he will try to prove himself - but in a very mouthy, sarcastic Bishop way. 

@ Nino: But that's a great idea! Now Cas and Bish can be BFFs, and we can finally have the long awaited module, "Casavir and Bishop go to Under Mountain." It'll be aweeessoooooommmeee!111

Modifié par bokhi, 11 octobre 2011 - 06:11 .

[bokhi]

Sorry, bizarre double-post happened. Ignore, pls. XD

Modifié par bokhi, 11 octobre 2011 - 06:11 .

[nino1979]

Rofl,Bokh by yea I could imagine those two getin' their groove on...I mean all those pent up emotions and no response from KC...LAMO!!xD

[bokhi]

@nino: Not quite what I was thinking (was trying to riff Harold and Kumar go to White Castle buuuut....clearly I phailed) but I guess that works too. At least it is a highly marketable option, I'm sure there are people who would pay good money to play that mod...hmmmm...

[Vaalyah]

As usual, sorry for my delay. Too much work :-(

@ Nino: thank you for your trust but... I don't think I'll be so good in developing this plot :-D (and most of all, in putting it into the game!)

@ Bokhi: Yes, this is the reason why I've opened this thread. Bishop has a very complicated personality and to develop a decent plot, I HAVE TO "be in the character". He could never be the soft-and-sweet kind of person and I don't want him to be like that. So he will remain cranky and witty and annoying and sarcastic etc etc etc...
However, don't worry. I think you will hear A LOT of my developing plans :-D

@ both: no, please, Bishop and Casavir together? Is like matter and anti-matter... it would lead to the destruction of the whole universe!

[Louisdeer]

To make Bishop and Casavir is simple.

You need a point to connect a winner side and a good side. thats all!

For instence:

You need a leader who, is a good guy and also is at the winner side. Cassavir wont put personal conflict as first priority. Neither Bishop will. Because if he choose to stab Cassavir in that case, he will be on the loser side which against PC.

To all super Chaotic Personality, we always sacrifice /ignore anything on the part we concerned about, include emotional feeling and all else (if that is not we concerned about). And to Bishop, all he care is pure victory and pure freedom.

Thats why Bishop tell us plainly what he want to do and what he likes(which are mostly evil), and Bishop act very different from his own heart. (if his feeling agaisnt his victory and freedom, So Be It. He will not follow his hate, anger or love to be on the loser side.) And therefore, no matter how much influnce PC could have on this guy, he will walk on his own opinion.

Based on this significant oppinion, I gonna try to explain Bishop's choice systerm.

Many people questioned why Bishop would go with PC and betray at the end.

Pretty simple to me, PC is the winner side before final battle. Debt? there is no debt, only victory to bishop, tough he admit he owe another debt because he followed PC(female) too long. He doesn't really seriously care about how much reward there is. All he cares about is to be the winner in any situation. However, it is a Fact that stand with PC side always win. It matches Bishop's world view, no matter how much he hate the situation.

Bishop almost never doubt that PC can even all odds. However, he evaluated PC as strong as Garius, the puppet lord of king of shadow. That is the point when he gonna decide to turn his back.

When he saw that, Garius broke the wall of crossroad gate. He flee. because he thinks Garius has advantage.

When Garius wants his help to kill PC. He cant decide easily, because he is calculate if his power and Garius power together can promise a victory against PC. So either PC's talking will force him to do, or PC's confidence will scare him away, so he will left Garius alone in case of Risk to be a loser.

As toward Cassivir, if he can kill Cassivir and remain at winner side. He definitly will do it. I can predict in the Real final battle, Bishop will just stab Cassivir and tell Garius, "I am ** done, now you can go die with PC." awwhh, i want to see Garius' face.

I encounter this Chaotic guy in MaskoB, he is in peace, because he finally is at the loser side. Nothing he would do with it. So he doesn't suffer no more on the choices.---All Chaotic persons can not escape the suffering of choices because there are wider options to them than to lawful people. Bishop is truly typical on this part.

I would bring Bishop all the game if i am not a Good person.

That is the Bishop I know.

If anyone has a problem with Bishop's complicity, then i say you are just not Chaotic enough.

Modifié par Louisdeer, 17 octobre 2011 - 06:35 .

[Vaalyah]

Louisdeer, thank you for your interpretation of Bishop's behaviour, but I'm afraid we are missing the point. Again.
Several pages before, there's exactly the same opinion expressed many times. I am trying to answer shortly here, because English is not my mother language, so for me it's quite time-consuming to repeat the same things again: in case, go back few pages and read other posts. Please, don't take my words as rude. The thing is that you, as many others before you, actually believe that CE means "no feelings, no love". Bokhi and Mungbean explained, with a psychiatric point of view, the reason why this is not correct. So maybe Bishop can have an extremely twisted interpretation of the world around him (and also of himself), but in my opinion, taking for granted that all his actions are totally independent of love, is wrong. :-(

[Louisdeer]

Vaalyah wrote...

Louisdeer, thank you for your interpretation of Bishop's behaviour, but I'm afraid we are missing the point. Again.
Several pages before, there's exactly the same opinion expressed many times. I am trying to answer shortly here, because English is not my mother language, so for me it's quite time-consuming to repeat the same things again: in case, go back few pages and read other posts. Please, don't take my words as rude. The thing is that you, as many others before you, actually believe that CE means "no feelings, no love". Bokhi and Mungbean explained, with a psychiatric point of view, the reason why this is not correct. So maybe Bishop can have an extremely twisted interpretation of the world around him (and also of himself), but in my opinion, taking for granted that all his actions are totally independent of love, is wrong. :-(

Yes, you missed my point. "...actually believe that CE means "no feelings, no love..."

Helllll Nooo..

I am not saying Bishop doesnt relate love and feeling toward his action. What i am saying is~~~

First, Bishop has love and feelings as well as all other human beings.

Second, Bishop put his judgement about victory side as first piority.

Third, Bishop would take actions according to his feelings as long as it won't make his side become a "loser side"

This path is followed by all chaotic persons. There is no options, only the best choices.

For example, if i am a chaotic person, supposing my goal is seperated from my feeling,  I would kill no matter how bad it make me feel as long as my goal is achieved.(nah it is just an example) In that case, i do have a feeling toward my victim, but i would choose to do so is because it is the best choice to achieve my goal.(under the judgement of my own intellegent level)

That is Chaotic.

Most common mistake is made when people explain a CE is that they failed to seperate Evil and Chaotic. And they always get a No feeling Evil Glom which is as cold as steel in their conclusion. However, like you said, couple pages ago people can realize that they reach a false conclusion from theories.

My arguement here is that we need a Chaotic Good person to serve as a mirro toward Bishop who is a CE.

And we dont have a CG except robin...ops.... anywany. I hope you got it right this time.

I honestly doubt anyone can tell what is evil, and what is chaotic....but that topic can delay......

"Twisted" is an accurate description toward his personality, but i'd rather say it is "chaotic" to avoid normal bias from common sense about being evil

Modifié par Louisdeer, 17 octobre 2011 - 09:10 .

[Louisdeer]

Is there any Chaotic Good person in NWN2??? i havent play the Storm Campaign....i hope there will be one.

No matter how, most good people are lawful or neutr. Also, in realistic, most people become good because they followed their feelings. As a result, (i guess), Chaotic Good is very rare. I honestly think an example of that will help us understand Bishop much better.


Ahhh,,, i suddenly remember one. The final boss in Dragon Age 2. The lady leader of Templar. Vigiliant....Yes.... Chaotic Good 0/75 at a least.....She ended up badly......

Modifié par Louisdeer, 17 octobre 2011 - 09:15 .

[kevL]

maybe Bishop's redemption is ... getting him to see that winning isn't everything ( oh, he wants to come out on top so bad ).

Sometimes it's in ... how you play the game!


that's more Neutral-ish, isn't it?

[Louisdeer]

kevL wrote...

maybe Bishop's redemption is ... getting him to see that winning isn't everything ( oh, he wants to come out on top so bad ).

Sometimes it's in ... how you play the game!


that's more Neutral-ish, isn't it?

He ended up in the faithless wall, and he was in a deadly calm mood. Yea, i agree. Only if he can get rid of the choices, he will be in peace.

Anyway, i totally agree with that....

Neutralish? what do you mean?

[kevL]

Louisdeer wrote...

Neutralish? what do you mean?

well, I believe Vaalyah sees B. as sliding toward Chaotic Neutral ....

[Vaalyah]

Louisdeer, you said "Third, Bishop would take actions according to his feelings as long as it won't make his side become a "loser side"
This path is followed by all chaotic persons. There is no options, only the best choices." well, I think a chaotic person follows more his own instinct. I can't see a real chaotic personality evaluating all pros and cons before doing an action, I feel a chaotic one more like an instinctive soul. I don't think Bishop thought "Oh, well, I have to win, so, who's winning? This one, then let's go", but better like "I want to live, so who has the bigger probability to let me survive? Moreover, I don't want to put my own life in the hands of someone else (the PC), so I better run away from her. Look! The KoS is coming. If I go away, I will fulfil both my requests"
In my opinion Chaotic is instinctive. Someone who plan so much is rather a Legal one...

"My arguement here is that we need a Chaotic Good person to serve as a mirro toward Bishop who is a CE.
And we dont have a CG except robin...ops.... anywany. I hope you got it right this time."
2 things. 1) unfortunately in the game the alignment points seem to go only along the LG-CE axes :-( 2) who is robin?

I think Bishop's redemption is all related to him forgiving himself and giving himself a second chance ;-)

Kev is right here: I think Bishop has to remain Bishop, so I don't want to make him change his behaviour and attitudes. I just would like to produce an alignment change from CE to CN. So he will still be cranky and sarcastic and annoying, etc. But with a small, small, smaaaaaaaaaaaaall better attitude towards the world :-)

[I_Raps]

kevL wrote...

well, I believe Vaalyah sees B. as sliding toward Chaotic Neutral ....

Odd.  I last saw him sliding toward that nasty grayish-green lump a bit down and to the right.

Modifié par I_Raps, 18 octobre 2011 - 06:53 .