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[Louisdeer]

Vaalyah wrote...

Louisdeer, you said "Third, Bishop would take actions according to his feelings as long as it won't make his side become a "loser side"
This path is followed by all chaotic persons. There is no options, only the best choices." well, I think a chaotic person follows more his own instinct. I can't see a real chaotic personality evaluating all pros and cons before doing an action, I feel a chaotic one more like an instinctive soul. I don't think Bishop thought "Oh, well, I have to win, so, who's winning? This one, then let's go", but better like "I want to live, so who has the bigger probability to let me survive? Moreover, I don't want to put my own life in the hands of someone else (the PC), so I better run away from her. Look! The KoS is coming. If I go away, I will fulfil both my requests"
In my opinion Chaotic is instinctive. Someone who plan so much is rather a Legal one...

"My arguement here is that we need a Chaotic Good person to serve as a mirro toward Bishop who is a CE.
And we dont have a CG except robin...ops.... anywany. I hope you got it right this time."
2 things. 1) unfortunately in the game the alignment points seem to go only along the LG-CE axes :-( 2) who is robin?

I think Bishop's redemption is all related to him forgiving himself and giving himself a second chance ;-)

Kev is right here: I think Bishop has to remain Bishop, so I don't want to make him change his behaviour and attitudes. I just would like to produce an alignment change from CE to CN. So he will still be cranky and sarcastic and annoying, etc. But with a small, small, smaaaaaaaaaaaaall better attitude towards the world :-)

Nice!! Yes, i see that you get my point now, though You don't believe in  that Chaotic persons evaluate things as I said.

You think all chaotic persons cares more about their opinions. That depends on how the chaotic person's intellect  developed.

I have to admit though, concerningself instinct is relatived to chaotic, since chaotic persons come up with some extrem ideas more easily than lawful persons. That shows us cares too much about our own instinct. However, it is just a surface.

Bishop does believe more in himself, but that is not because his chaotic personality. Actually, because no one else can remain on Bishop side in a long time.(Bishop changes side faster than anyone else appearing in the game) Bishop is on his ownside ALONE. That makes Bishop, and most chaotic persons who has a unique side, have no choice but believe in theirselves.

Logically, Bishop can be persuaded as well as others. (just think even stubbon like dwarves can change mind) However, Bishop made a flawless arguement to himself that surviving is above all, which is EXACTLY like what you said. Bishop and no one else ever brought an arguement to bring down his. On this part, we should have a look who Bishop hate the most, Cassavir.

Cassavir has a totally different life value. While Bishop only do anything to help his own survive and freedom, and Bishop NEVEREVER would devote his own life for anyother causes.(Hopefully he will get a strong enough feeling to break this chain on his neck.) Cassavir is totally opposite.

Cassavir almost devote himself to ANYTHING that he think it is good. Just think how many times Cassavir vowed PC's voices about a good action, even it could be a lie from who sits infront of computer. PC maybe not serious but Cassavir is absolutly serious. That is where the conflict between Bishop and Cassavir comes from.

One refuses to devote himself to anythingelse except himself, that is Bishop. Another would devote himself to anything good, even it leads to self-destruction, that is Cassavir. Neither one of them can not admit the other is right. Actually, there is no right or wrong if we doesnt care as much as those two did. On the same level of logic, one of them must be wrong toward the only truth. Cassavir and Bishop thinks the other one is wrong.

And what may decide who is wrong? I dont know what Cassavir thinks, but to Bishop, it is obvious. Kill Cassavir, then himself is on the winning side on this issue. Surely, it actually doesnt really solve anything, but to Bishop, the Dead one is ALWAYS wrong. (Remeber what is his comment at ember) And that makes him feel peace about his own opinion.

In conclusion, i believe you can see the "Chaotic" in your definition is actually an iron will about one's narrow belief. Because lawful as Cassavir is also carry on his own distinct. I am glad Cassavir is here(Because he is lawful). Otherwise, I can not explain this so well.

Do one thing at any cost, a temperory losing never beat the eternal victory.

That is what called Chaotic. We brought up all Extrem Ideas and changing sides frequently whenever need. .... Oh i just love this idea. (I wont assault U.S. President!...joke )

P.S: Robin was reffering to Robin Hood. An "Good Chaotic" example that designer refered to.

LG-CE axe actually serves well. In most stories, CG ended up very bad, no matter it is Robin hood, or the lady in Dragon age 2....And that makes CG persons rarely appears. (They are all dead.)

Additional, our talks may make Bishop looks a bit neutr-like. That is because I tend to talk about Chaotic without Evil mixed into our analysis.

I also totally agree about your opinion about Bishop's Redemption.

Modifié par Louisdeer, 18 octobre 2011 - 08:49 .

[Vaalyah]

Louisdeer, I agree with you when you say that Bishop believes in himself, mostly because he can ONLY count on himself. I think also that his sarcasm, rudeness, etc, is just a way to keep people away from him. If you don't have anyone near you, you would not risk to trust them, and then to be abandoned by them.
However, about the conflict with Casavir, I think it is due to more "basic" questions. Surely, Casavir is everything Bishop hates: a paladin, always devoted, always polite, always good, always perfect. But I think the matter immediately become a simple match between them. The prize is the PC and "the winner is the best". Bishop is not only attracted by the PC, so that he has a personal reason to decide of win her love, but there's also the possibility of showing to Casavir (and to himself) that he is the better one, and being better than a paladin means you are "more good" than him. I think there's still something related to the need for Bishop to show the world he deserves something.
Though I would like to hear our two psychology experts on the matter :-)

And now, a small update. We are writing the mod. Or better, I am writing dialogues and planning a lot of scenes. And Kev_L ("Saint Kev_L") is doing miracles in helping me understanding something about scripting. Moreover, he's also helping a lot by writing some scripts for triggering dialogues (Kev, in case you would come to see Venice, let me know that. I'm in debt of a dinner :-D )
I would like to ask the help from English mother-language people. Of course I write dialogues and plots in Italian and then I translate them. But my English is not so good, so I would like to know if there is someone who could check my translations and adapt the dialogues to a fluent English speech.
In case, let me know, thank you ^^

[kevL]

i didn't know saints did the things i've done .... wait, are you saying I'm due for a St. Augustine moment??

[Louisdeer]

I think Bishop would not devote to his love, especially when Cassavir is already devoting.

like i said, Bishop has a conflict with Cassavir on a fundamental reason of living. Thus, each of them will only make the other one become more defensive on their own style.

But yes, Bishop would feel jealous if he saw Cassavir has an advantage because he can devote. However, the best guess of Bishop is that, he should be find a new way to love. It would be hard to think though....meh....just forget about my words. too much rules are not good for brain storming.Hope you will have a epic piece of work:wizard: hope to hear more.

Modifié par Louisdeer, 20 octobre 2011 - 06:10 .

[Vaalyah]

@ KevL: what do you mean by "St. Augustine moment"?

SPOILER
@Louisdeer: I don't think Bishop considers being devote as a plus for Casavir. If you recall the cutscene where Bishop has higher influence point, this one , Bishop actually accuses Casavir of being overprotective ("don't be defending her honour, she can do it herself, and unlike you, paladin, I know she can!") and that he gives her enough space ("let her make her own decision. I'll do.")
Summarizing, I think Bishop's approach is the best (personal opinion), but most important, Bishop himself believes his approach is the best one ;-P
END SPOILER

[kevL]

In the summer of 386 ... Augustine underwent a profound personal crisis, leading him to convert to Christianity, abandon his career in rhetoric, quit his teaching position in Milan, give up any ideas of marriage, and devote himself entirely to serving God and to the practices of priesthood ....

Augustine of Hippo


.. a Bishop moment, perhaps ;|

[Vaalyah]

well, no, I was referring to you as a saint because you're so kind, so patient and so helpful!
However, in case you'd decide to become a priest... just keep answering to emails :-P

[kevL]

holy **** I never knew a person could ask so many questions ........

[Vaalyah]

:-D I know! I'm famous for this! ^^

[WingedTwilightoftheDawn]

I'm currently making a mod for Bishop for Skyrim.  If anyone is interested here is the website you can see the screen shots and updates.  I myself LOVE Bishop and I'm making him an in-depth follower and romance option.  I'm also adding other characters to the mod like Casavir and Neeshka.  

 

Mod's Website

 

http://wingedtwiligh...m/bishopromance

[erin3372]

lol... woman always fall for the a$$%0!&s, then wonder "how could he betray me?" this is a generalization i've seen to many times in real life. and bishop personifies that idea. as for why he stay with the group after saving shandra. Money and fun that's it, no big reasoning here. he's having fun and making money doing it. whether it's the fun of killing or the fun of sowing the seeds of betrayal within the group. his comment to Duncan about owing him, i always felt that was just a sarcastic excuse.

 

imho opinion love can be controlled it's lust that creates the issue and is more difficult to control and difficult to differentiate from love.