260 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwoe]

Sorry

[Vaalyah]

(hug) oh, just don't worry! It will pass :-D

[Zaxares]

I actually agree that part of Bishop's attitude likely stems from his own feelings of self-loathing and issues of self-worth, but that fact actually doesn't endear him to me any more than it did before. You can battle and overcome such issues without becoming a jerk (examples: Aerie from BG2, possibly Fall-from-Grace from Planescape: Torment, and Atton Rand from KotOR 2). At some point, Bishop chose to become the man he is. Perhaps, just perhaps, he could be redeemed and turned away from his current path, but it'll take someone like Vaalyah to do it.

[hauksdottir]

There are women who write love letters to mass murderers, and propose marriage to serial rapists.  :wub:They delude themselves with the idea that the rotten angry shell of a man is redeemable if only the "right" woman takes him on as a project.

Pah!

Humbug!!

There is NO WAY Bishop would have crossed the threshold to my Keep.  I'm building a community as well as an army... and his treasonable "conversations" with my fellows as well as his total disrespect for me as a person and as a leader would serve as reason enough not to have him around.

How much do I loathe having him forced upon me by the devs?  In the Githyanki Lair, when we are chasing after Shandra, I strip him of EVERYTHING.  The Erynis and Succubi almost always cast Darkness, and he runs right up to them.  So for the next several minutes, they pound him into oblivion with little gasps and squeals while he is level drained.  He complains that his "weapon" isn't doing anything.  That's the point.  He's an impotent little bastard and the ladies put him in his place.  "Almost dead."  Then I'm free to solo that section.

BTW, Casavir wouldn't have been allowed in my Keep, either.  His making cow eyes at me would create jealousy and distraction.  Besides, his prior lover was a ****, and he can go right back to her.  His admiration is no compliment.

A leader cannot afford romances, especially when they are with people whom you may have to send to their deaths.  The appearance of favoritism gnaws at solidarity just as much as actual sleeping around.  And anybody who'd sleep with Bishop demonstrates a serious lack of judgement and self-confidence.

[Vaalyah]

@ Zaxares: to say the truth, I always thought that Aerie was just a pathetic crying useless creature, too boring and annoying to be in my party. :-D I simply loathe her, because I can't stand NPCs who spend their own time having mercy for themselves and just wait there for someone to say "Oh, you worth!". I see my PC as a good person, compassionate and equal, but after having help everyone who needs, she can't help but feel that people have to try their best to overcome situations. Of course, if you are not a fighter, you would not be able to defeat Githianky (or how it is written) all by yourself, but you should have to try, instead that just wait there for death to come. In this sense, when Bishop speaks about the people of Ember, I share his opinion. Ok, being good, I think it's my duty to help them, but they should however had tried to do something for themselves.

And about redeeming Bishop... well, thank you for your trust :-D Vaalyah would do her best! :-P (I am not speaking in 3rd person... Vaalyah is my PC)



@ Hauksdottir: I agree: a serial killer is a serial killer and I don't think any good woman could redeem him. But I think we are speaking of a "bit" different thing. ie: what would you think of a child who, after being abused by someone for years, during his escape, could have harm or killed the person who had abused of him? Of course, this is just speculation, but I am trying to highlight the fact that when bad things happened during childhood, they leave devastating effects on the child mind. And usually these children need psychiatric help, not prison. Hope I was able to express what I have in my mind. o_O



Again, I stress that in my opinion, Bishop doesn't act like a CE but more like a CN. And to say the truth... ehm, I haven't finished the game yet, so, if this happens after arriving at Crossroad Keep, please, don't tell me, but WHEN does Bishop show disrespect for the PC?



By the way, you speak about Bishop but... from what I've read, you are a little CE too :-D :-D :-D poor Casavir!!! :-D

[Nightwoe]

wow Hauksdottir, I respect the fire in that post xD I agree, i suppose, to a point, that a leader doesn't, in reality, have time to devote to romance. However, true leaders are usually strong willed individuals with confidence in themselves and their decisions. Someone that truly relied on themselves and not others are fitting leaders. I will admit outright that I'm not the strongest of people in that I rely on other people a lot in my life. I envy people who take complete control of their lives and those around them.

Other people, like me, would find time for romance, and I can't seem to come up with an explenation why. meh, that all sounded better in my head

[I_Raps]

Nightwoe wrote...

meh, that all sounded better in my head

It sounds alright here, too, but not quite combative enough.

I'm late here, but when I read Hauksdottir's post the first thing I thought of was

*MEOWRR*  Somebody get me an ale;  this is going to get good!

Modifié par I_Raps, 30 septembre 2010 - 12:31 .

[hauksdottir]

I_Raps wrote...

*MEOWRR*  Somebody get me an ale;  this is going to get good!

You might notice my absence from the "romance" thread.

Vaalyah wrote...

By the way, you speak about Bishop but... from what I've read, you are a little CE too :-D :-D :-D poor Casavir!!! :-D

No, I'm perfectly neutral about this: NO romance while commanding, especially during a war.  Leaders have too much to worry about without hormones screwing things up.  Anybody who pushes himself upon a commmander, to the point where it is common gossip, does not respect her or the rest of the party.  A wishy-washy self-doubting  paladin is as unwelcome as an unshaven foul-mouthed ruffian.

Nightwoe wrote...

Other people, like me, would find time for romance, and I can't seem to
come up with an explenation why. meh, that all sounded better in my head

It always does. :chuckle:  There are women who have used sex as a political tool.  Cleopatra knew that Rome would take her country and its granaries and its treasures.  By seducing Caesar, she postponed a lot of misery, and kept her family in a position of power.  She couldn't know that his own friends would assassinate him.  Catherine the Great, Empress of Russia, trained her lovers (men of ability and education) in governance and set them out to watch over her vast lands.  I've seen pictures of her 4-handed chess set in silver and gold.

Commanders might have concubines... that can be sent to the rear with the baggage train... but loving someone and sending him to certain death?  Not likely.  Not wise.

Modifié par hauksdottir, 30 septembre 2010 - 05:50 .

[Vaalyah]

Hauksdottir, of course you have all the rights to have your opinion but... it seems to me you are forgetting a small, tiny, almost invisible particular.

You can't decide or plan or manage love. You can't say "today I don't want to fall in love" and "tomorrow I would be madly in love with someone". There are many cases when people deny their love, for different reasons (fear, 99% of the times) but love is something that we can't control at all.



And using sex for politics is not the things we are speaking about. The PC doesn't choose (or is not supposed to) Casavir or Bishop for a better political approach, but because she is in love. You, as a player, can decide to accept or reject the romance interaction, but the PC as a "person" can't plan it. I hope I was able to express my point of view o_O

And about the last sentence... maybe the man you are in love with doesn't want either to be sent back, because if he loves you, he perfectly know that he has to fight also for your safeness. And maybe he simply thinks that putting his own life in danger for you... well, it is worth!

[Nightwoe]

YES, Vaalyah, you helped me put it to words. In such a position, even had I been a strong individual, I would want some sort of comfort. The PC's only family is Daegan(sp? its been forever sinse I spelled his name out ) and he isn't much comfort. How easy would it be to attach yourself to someone in that situation?

[Vaalyah]

I think we shall also add the fact that the PC has always lived in the small village of West Harbor, where the other "romance options" were: her best friend Bevil, and the Mossfeld... Valid reasons to forget about any possible romance in her entire life :-D So I suppose that travelling through the big world and meeting so many new people is just the obvious beginning to the romance she had never been able to have...



[If I remember correctly, it should be written "Daeghun", but I spell it wrong too half of the times :-D ]

[I_Raps]

Vaalyah wrote...

 There are many cases when people deny their love, for different reasons (fear, 99% of the times) but love is something that we can't control at all.

The writers of MOTB are waiting for you with bated breath.

[Vaalyah]

???
Sorry, I haven't finished the OC yet, so MotB is still a long way from me. I haven't understood your post :-(

Modifié par Vaalyah, 30 septembre 2010 - 09:33 .

[I_Raps]

MOTB is all one giant love story. And both the romance options for the PC are tortured and unwilling like you described.

"And so love overcomes again.  As it always must."  - the Red Woman

Modifié par I_Raps, 30 septembre 2010 - 09:48 .

[Vaalyah]

o_O hmmmm, tortured?

[I_Raps]

Oh, yes. 


".. and what would a hag such as you know of love?"

"More than you, I think.  Have you not hunted through dreams all of your life, searching but not finding a dream of your own?  Or have you found one at last with this one, but not yet realized it?  You know what I say is true..."

...

"Red Woman, what a shattered and broken thing you have become, as ignorant of your own nature as this one who comes before me."

Modifié par I_Raps, 30 septembre 2010 - 09:57 .

[I_Raps]

It's funny.  This argument almost perfectly parallels the conflict between the Red Woman and her Antagonist - which drives the events of MOTB.


p.s.  hauksdottir is Lawful, not Chaotic.  She would make a good Doomguide.  Or whatever they were called before Kelemvor.

Modifié par I_Raps, 30 septembre 2010 - 10:03 .

[hauksdottir]

Sieben Elfriend wrote...

I wish either vaalyah or hauksdottir would change her avatar. I enjoy all their posts but get them confused. No offense intended to anyone.

The avatar that I used in the old forums is the one that Nightwoe is using here.  This one is still elven, but a bit more assertive and capable-looking. 

We do need more avatars!  Or, better, the ability to create and upload our own!!!  Before I became disabled, I spent 15 years in the games industry and know my way around graphics programs.

Modifié par hauksdottir, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:17 .

[Seagloom]

I never played with the Bishop romance mod on account of finding him a contemptible person. Firstly, I disagree with the assertion he is chaotic neutral. Bishop is most certainly chaotic evil. Chaotic evil does not mean a character is a mass murdering, baby eating, demon worshiping psychopath. It *can* mean those things, but it is entirely possible to be chaotic evil and show restraint, cunning, wit, and even patience. A chaotic evil person puts themselves first, disrespects authority, and enjoys the suffering of others. This fits Bishop to a tee. He dislikes people or authority figures having a hold on him, is self-centered, and gets a kick out of others' suffering--attributing their circumstances to weakness of some sort. A chaotic evil person can only be put in line by a stronger individual or fear of personal harm. The reason Bishop does not do whatever he likes is because he knows there are others who would put him down if he did. The reason he has a grudging acceptance of the KC's antics is at least in part because the KC can do the same.

A chaotic neutral person is an individualist who believes in not limiting others freedoms. They also do not derive pleasure from hurting others. They fight and kill if need be, but do not go in for torture or murder as an enjoyable activity. They are self-centered but not malicious. A chaotic neutral man would not torch his hometown or believe that superiority over another entitles them to do whatever they want. The only thing chaotic evil and chaotic neutral share in common is a desire for personal freedom.

That aside, I thought Bishop was pond scum. It was not because he was evil. Ammon Jerro was a wonderful character. Other than coming to lament Shandra's fate he was unrepentantly evil. Bishop was rude, crass, craven, and acted like his experiences granted him insight into human character he did not possess. He had no redeeming qualities other than physical appearance. Underneath that surface was a misogynistic ball of churning, conflicting but altogether selfish emotional baggage. Mind, that like hauksdottir I found Casavir little better for other reasons. I just thought Bishop was a poor excuse for a person and did not enjoy him much as a character. Like Ammon Jerro, Bishop had a history and reasons for his behavior, but there was never a point where I felt sorry for him or thought his ideology had any real justification beyond petty self delusion.

His ultimate fate was fitting.

As far as romance potential, my bard went through the OC without courting him or Casavir. I have yet to play a character in any game who liked a man that strongly implied she was a prostitute and treated her friends and random strangers like garbage. How a person treats everyone else is a big deal to me. Even if Bishop was a flowery tra-la-la romantic with my KC I still would have found him intolerable based on that. It is possible to be the bad boy without being a douchebag.

Modifié par Seagloom, 02 octobre 2010 - 09:30 .

[kamalpoe]

hauksdottir wrote...
We do need more avatars!  Or, better, the ability to create and upload our own!!! 

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/172/index/3141893

[Vaalyah]

@Sieben: a new avatar is something that I started asking as soon as I registered in this forum. No way of having it till I install DA:O... and I can't install it till my gpu would come back from the warranty service. I hope next week. (yes, I am incredibly angry, almost 2 months without computer... without my NEW computer!!!)

However, in your female-playing, you took Casavir for his statistics. It is obvious you haven't made your choice following "the heart", this is because you don't feel any "attractive" in those guys. So I can completely understand why you have made your choice. In my opinion, since I play an RPG, I want to "live" as my character and I have to follow her feelings and her way of thinking, also in the choice of a possible boyfriend! ;-P



@Hauksdottir: we can create our own avatar... the only problem is that you have to install DA:O or the character creator of the game... I don't know if your computer can handle the software... Till I get my new computer working, I can't '



@Seagloom: you said "A chaotic evil person puts themselves first, disrespects authority, and enjoys the suffering of others." well, everyone puts him/herself first, it is called "surviving instinct" (hope the English translation is correct). The extremely RARE moments someone puts someone else first are restricted to 1) parents with their son/daughter (with THEIR son/daughter, not with the sons and daughters of others, again, the surviving of our own DNA) 2) love partner. I think we can tell ourselves we are good and nice all the time, but when you are risking your own life, instinct prevails. And about the enjoyment of others' sufferings... well... a friend of mine is always speaking like Bishop. If someone has something wrong, he starts with stupid comments that can seems extremely cruel. Is he evil? No, if you just take your time to know him, you will discover he is one of the sweetest person in the world. Why he can't put his mouth closed instead of saying silly things? Don't ask, I haven't understood it yet. I suppose it is a sort of way to keep distances. But he's not evil at all! I've seen him doing incredibly things for friends.



So, in my opinion, yes, you have to do really cruel things to be evil. Not just saying stupid sentences or offending people with jokes. However, of course, each one of us sees a character in his/her own way, and we tend to build all the things that are missing. The OC shows us just about a 20% of NPCs personality... the other 80% is in our mind :-) and everyone creates a different version of that 80%!

[Seagloom]

Vaalyah wrote...

@Seagloom: you said "A chaotic evil person puts themselves first, disrespects authority, and enjoys the suffering of others." well, everyone puts him/herself first, it is called "surviving instinct" (hope the English translation is correct). The extremely RARE moments someone puts someone else first are restricted to 1) parents with their son/daughter (with THEIR son/daughter, not with the sons and daughters of others, again, the surviving of our own DNA) 2) love partner. I think we can tell ourselves we are good and nice all the time, but when you are risking your own life, instinct prevails. And about the enjoyment of others' sufferings... well... a friend of mine is always speaking like Bishop. If someone has something wrong, he starts with stupid comments that can seems extremely cruel. Is he evil? No, if you just take your time to know him, you will discover he is one of the sweetest person in the world. Why he can't put his mouth closed instead of saying silly things? Don't ask, I haven't understood it yet. I suppose it is a sort of way to keep distances. But he's not evil at all! I've seen him doing incredibly things for friends.

So, in my opinion, yes, you have to do really cruel things to be evil. Not just saying stupid sentences or offending people with jokes. However, of course, each one of us sees a character in his/her own way, and we tend to build all the things that are missing. The OC shows us just about a 20% of NPCs personality... the other 80% is in our mind :-) and everyone creates a different version of that 80%!

I'm not talking about real life morality here. I'm referring to Dungeons & Dragons' alignment system which is not nearly as flexible as you seem to believe. Broadly the alignments are defined thusly: those of good alignment put others' welfare before themselves. They proactively help people. Neutral characters simply keep to themselves. They have no interest in helping others but no strong desire to hurt them either. They just live their lives. Most people in our world would likely be neutral by Dungeons & Dragons standards. Evil people are focused entirely on themselves, have no compuction about hurting others, and derive enjoyment from it.

Law is favoring order, either a strongly ordered society or personal order in your life. Chaos is favoring freedom and individuality. Therefore Bishop is chaotic evil. It is not solely because of his commentary; although that is a part of it. He makes his comments to intentionally put people down. That said, yes, actions are what matter in the end, not comments, and we *know* Bishop is ruthlessly cruel because of his role in the destruction of his village and willingness to switch sides despite knowing Black Garius has malevolent intentions for the region. The way Bishop puts himself first is the very definition of evil in D&D terms--a game system with objective, not subjective morality. Keep in mind that evil in D&D is a tangible force that can be detected with magic. There are in fact whole races of monsters that are purely evil, such as demons, and shining beacons of goodness, such as archons.

On a side note, I do not consider any of Bishop's actions from a community member's add-on as relevant. Those are a fan's interpretation of the character programmed into the module. I only consider what Obsidian's writers included for us to see as fair use. They created the character after all.

Modifié par Seagloom, 01 octobre 2010 - 04:26 .

[Vaalyah]

It is not so easy for me. I think that D&D alignment are there to represents true life behaviour, so I tend to link an alignment with things and behaviours that I've seen in real life.

In P&P version, my own character is grumpy and also unsociable. But she's CG!



The last paragraph wasn't about the romance pack, but about what each one of us has in mind. I hear Bishop's stupid joke and I remember my friend. Probably, you hear the same joke and you interpret as "evilness". Just this! :-)

[UbiquitousGrue]

Seagloom wrote...

I'm not talking about real life morality
here. I'm referring to Dungeons & Dragons' alignment system which
is not nearly as flexible as you seem to believe. Broadly the alignments
are defined thusly: those of good alignment put others' welfare before
themselves. They proactively help people. Neutral characters simply keep
to themselves. They have no interest in helping others but no strong
desire to hurt them either. They just live their lives. Most people in
our world would likely be neutral by Dungeons & Dragons standards.
Evil people are focused entirely on themselves, have no compuction about
hurting others, and derive enjoyment from it.

Not to mention that he reacts with glee towards evil actions the PC can take. If he is less proactively evil, I take it as a limitation of the game mechanics; they don't like party members going off and making sweeping decisions without PC input.

I played the NWN2 campaign (all the way through, at least) with a male PC. I'm with Seagloom in that Bishop's a vile person, and if he were real I'd be decidedly less fond of him, but in that fictional context he ended up one of my favorites (Sand wins) by virtue of being interesting. (Interesting like, you know, Ebola. ) My PC (something of a pathetically villainous archetype himself) and he got on like a house on fire, and it lent something to the narrative when Shandra noted, with disgust, that "[they deserved] each other", knowing that ultimately they were going to turn on each other.
DnD doesn't really lend itself to ambiguous morality, and in truth I don't think there was anything in the game that suggested Bishop was pining for redemption. You can see hints at moments, perhaps, where his life could have been steered in a different direction. That's sort of the point, though - that it parallels the upbringing your own PC had. (More pointedly if you're playing a nice character, obviously)
That said, I don't play through romances too often, much less fan add-ons; I prefer to take characters as they are, for better or worse. I sort of understand the impulse to 'fix' a character like that, but I think you can only take it so far before you end up overlooking what's been established about his personality.

Modifié par UbiquitousGrue, 01 octobre 2010 - 04:54 .