260 réponses à ce sujet

[Zaxares]

That's a good argument, Nightwoe. However, in D&D, most campaigns adopt the view that Good and Evil are objective. Certain thoughts, actions and deeds are ALWAYS good, while other thoughts, actions and deeds are ALWAYS evil. The raising of undead is always an evil act, for example, even if one did it to use the undead to protect a town from a warband of marauding orcs. Likewise, the killing of a sentient being is always an evil act, even if the being you killed was itself evil. The act might be JUSTIFIED, in the case of slaying an evil dragon to stop its predations on nearby villages, or killing a demon to send it back to the Abyss, but that does not make the act itself Good.

With regards to love and affection, certainly evil beings can fall in love, just as good beings do. However, their alignment tends to dictate their approach to love. Lawful Evil characters, for example, tend to seek to wholly possess and control the object of their love. They force the object of their affection into marriage, forbid them from leaving the house/mansion/castle without their company, or in extreme cases, even purchase them as a slave so they can have their paramour completely at their disposal. That doesn't mean the evil person will mistreat their love. They genuinely DO want their beloved to be happy, but they approach it in a fashion that is lopsided, unequal and unhealthy.

The result of this is that the love is eventually stifled or suffocated, and when the other partner starts to lose interest or attempt to pull away, the Evil being reacts selfishly or even violently, refusing to let the other person go. This is why Evil characters rarely manage to have long-lasting, stable relationships. Their standard approach to dealing with other people will eventually poison the love. Exceptions can exist, of course, but that usually means that the Evil character is ultimately transformed by the experiences that the love has taught them, which changes their alignment to Neutral.

[bokhi]

Zaxares wrote...

With regards to love and affection, certainly evil beings can fall in love, just as good beings do. However, their alignment tends to dictate their approach to love. Lawful Evil characters, for example, tend to seek to wholly possess and control the object of their love. They force the object of their affection into marriage, forbid them from leaving the house/mansion/castle without their company, or in extreme cases, even purchase them as a slave so they can have their paramour completely at their disposal. That doesn't mean the evil person will mistreat their love. They genuinely DO want their beloved to be happy, but they approach it in a fashion that is lopsided, unequal and unhealthy.

The result of this is that the love is eventually stifled or suffocated, and when the other partner starts to lose interest or attempt to pull away, the Evil being reacts selfishly or even violently, refusing to let the other person go. This is why Evil characters rarely manage to have long-lasting, stable relationships. Their standard approach to dealing with other people will eventually poison the love. Exceptions can exist, of course, but that usually means that the Evil character is ultimately transformed by the experiences that the love has taught them, which changes their alignment to Neutral.

This. I can easily imagine Bishop exerting subtle psychological coercion to get his way with any romantic partner, if it is the case that he cannot control her via outright physical superiority or intimidation. I don't actually believe he would be above physical abuse, either, though I imagine that he would not resort to that with a target who would fight back, and do some damage. I think the likliest is psychological level abuse and coercion; he can actually be rather Satanesque in a very Milton sort of way - he is certainly crass and impolite when he percieves you to be nothing, but as soon as he realizes that he wants something from you? He does have quite the silver tongue, when he wishes it. And snazzy little one-liners, but hey, this is an RPG - everyone has those. 

I can't actually cite any examples at the moment, as I really ought to be doing something else right this minute (end of term = ARGH I GUESS IT IS PROCRASTINATION TIME YES?), but I do recall that the man is quite manipulative in a very self-serving, destructive way (SPOILER ---- Grobner and Construct, anyone? As soon as he finds a use for one, and figures the other must go in some way, shape, or form...)

As such I do not see Bishop's initial overtures to a female PC as being sincere in any capacity at all. If anything, it was likely some physical attraction, coupled with the prospect of seducing and influencing a fairly powerful figure in the immediate area, and - perhaps most importantly - a chance to stick the knife in Duncan. The PC is his niece, after all, and Bishop is certainly misogynistic enough to hold with ye olde tradition of women-as-property, wherein the female in question may be "sullied" as a strike against the guardian male. A crime against property, if you will. (Naturally, I do not mean this in the literal legal sense; I am merely placing an old, misogynistic mindframe from Western history and placing it in Bishop's head). 

As for later in-game, I suppose it is entirely possible that Bishop did indeed feel a strength of attraction towards the PC that was a bit too strong for comfort; his ending speech there, I believe, implies this rather...strongly (his unwillingness to get emotionally attached). The inner angst/turmoil (if any) and psychological fallout he may be dealing with, though, is not something the player is privy to, so I think there is some wriggle room there for alternative interpretations. 

[Vaalyah]

Sorry guys, I had huge problems at work and I have to stay in my office each day till evening (also during weekends :_( ). So, I'm late. I've written 3 answers and I am finishing the others. Please, have mercy. First answers (in the same order as the posts above have been written):

@ Kev_L: well, love is something that actually creates enjoyment in a person. It makes more endorphins around the brain, so a person feels better, chemically speaking. Also an evil person. I simply don't catch the point in why an evil person (supposing Bishop is evil, but I still believe he's more a CN than a CE) couldn't fall in love. There were many girls in the group, some more aligned with his approach to life (as Qara "Go and burn everything till the root" or as Neeshka "Loot, steal!"). Instead he found himself fascinated by the PC. My question was: why?

@I_raps: The events are like this (I know because I played that section several times for modding dialogues): Bishop is compelled to help rescuing Shandra. He is not happy to join the party at all. As soon as the party come back to the Flagon, he INSISTS to join the group and the first dialogue after that is a jealousy scene with the PC. So it seems to me that these facts are correlated. In this sense, the "rescuing mission" is the only thing between Bishop's indifference and Bishop's jealousy.

@ Kev_L (again): same here. I always thought that a real chaotic personality would have not agreed to pay the debt (I haven't finished the game yet so I don't know which is this debt). So I think that actually Bishop WANTED to join the party. Or at least to move away from the Flagon, you know, all rangers need a small trip around hills and valleys once in a while! However, after rescuing Shandra, he found a new reason to remain there. If it was just a problem of "joining the winning side", why waiting for the process? He invited the female PC to run away with him. Even if she says "yes", they are not leaving the party. If it was a "let's side with the winner" matter, I suppose he could just run away (with or without the female PC) at that point.

Don't worry. I'll be back with the other answers :-D

[Vaalyah]

Second part of my answer:

@ Nightwoe: I've read (can't remember where, maybe on this same forum) an user speaking about the same subject. S/he said that no one think of being evil: also a criminal that, ie, buys and sells weapons, is not "evil" from his point of view... he could think of himself just like someone with a shop. A person doesn't take the "evil path" for the sake of being evil, but because s/he has some goals. For following these targets, s/he can do many things which can be considered good or evil by the common morale (established by the majority of people in the world). So, again, I can't see any reason (this time from a moral point of view, not the chemical point of view I've expressed before) why Bishop can't be in love with another human being.

@ Zaxares: very interesting comment about the approach to love for evil characters! However, you have forgotten to consider sado-masochistic relationship (of course, I am not speaking about sex). As in real life there are one of the partner that is over-reactive, demanding, always controlling the other one, that treat the partner as a slave and humiliate him/her. The other partner has a masochistic attitude and can't live without the sadistic one. Just take into consideration those women that are often hit by the husband or when one of the partner has a problem with drug or alcohol...
However, same question as before. In your opinion, what has made Bishop being fascinated by the PC?

@ Bokhi: I think that Bishop IS manipulative. But only with someone he doesn't consider at his own level. Bishop firmly believes that almost everyone around him is stupid (ie: Elanee) or completely useless (ie: Grobnar). But he actually respects those that deserve it (in HIS opinion). So, for some reasons (SPOILER do you remember when he said that he's not being impressed by the people of Ember for not being able of defending themselves? In that dialogue he stated that the PC was a person better than them, because s/he was able to defend him/serself END SPOILER), the PC has Bishop's respect. If the PC is a female, while rescuing Shandra, he behaves with her very badly, having fun of her and treating her like a stupid. As soon as they are back at the Flagon, he stops mocking her and starts to treat her in a different (and more respectful) way. A coincidence? I don't think so.
Again: please, in your opinion, what has made Bishop changing his mind about the PC? What had he seen while they were following the Ghitianky? (or how it is written!)

[kevL]

gimme a day (night) to think (sleep) on it ..

oh, glad to see you weren't taken by Scylla & Charybdis

[I_Raps]

Vaalyah wrote...

@I_raps: The events are like this (I know because I played that section several times for modding dialogues): Bishop is compelled to help rescuing Shandra. He is not happy to join the party at all. As soon as the party come back to the Flagon, he INSISTS to join the group and the first dialogue after that is a jealousy scene with the PC. So it seems to me that these facts are correlated. In this sense, the "rescuing mission" is the only thing between Bishop's indifference and Bishop's jealousy.

If you take Casavir along, he and Bishop get into it already at Ember.  "Why don't you let her speak for herself?"  "I was only trying to..."  You can also earn influence with Bishop at several points before returning to the Flagon - none of which stops him from telling Shandra to warm his bedroll on the trip home.

p.s.  I have to agree with Bishop about Casavir, though.  Don't you female players find him cringeworthy?  I've never been a female, buy I've been a feminist my whole life and it seems like Casavir's attitude is exactly what women have been trying to send packing for 50-odd years.

Modifié par I_Raps, 22 avril 2011 - 11:20 .

[kevL]

@ mr. I_Raps: don't fool yerself, that's 90% propaganda. kinda like, "Coke is the real thing!" ( or "Be all you can be!" ) ...

On the other hand.

To things. We aren't talking about writers on the level of Sozhenitsyn here. I believe Good and evil exist on the face of this planet we call Earth, and are privileged to consider. I do not fundamentally believe that ends justify means, that the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few, and I do believe that a tree ought be judged by its fruit. Not simply by how 'charming' it is ..


Perhaps you should read A Hero of Our Time if you'd like insight into the forebearer of the Bishop-as-hero. This novel made quite an impact on me when I was young. (synopsis The stories depict Pechorin as impulsive, emotionally distant and manipulative, capable of extreme bravery but generally bored by his life.)


nb. if you love something, set it free. And I don't think Bishop is capable of that, whether his alignment is CN or NE (he's not CE). The character of Bishop regards FREE as either ignorance or indifference. That is, he sees society as a constant powerGame among persons. Society is many things, and there have been many societies; I leave it to the reader to decide the present.

which brings us to the point: you say you want to understand Bishop and his motives, to construct a plot-scene for yourself (or something you're designing). I strongly think that, on this level, you do that for yourself ....... then go write the scene, V.

[Vaalyah]

SPOILERS AHEAD
@ I_raps: sure, you're right. But I've always considered the quarrel in Ember like Bishop trying to show to Casavir he is better than him. You know, something like "Bishop is trying to mock Casavir to prove himself he's the winner and to show the entire party he's the smart guy". I genuinely thought this was due to normal male rivalry. Also about the dialogue with Shandra: he is showing that he is the "tough" guy that doesn't need anything and anyone. Instead, once back at the Flagon, the jealousy scenery with the PC is a dialogue that is supposed to be private (just Bishop and the PC)... so, Bishop can't show to anyone he is the tough guy. Moreover, if when he propose to run away for the trial, you answer (free translation from the Italian version of the game) "That would be a nice idea... if only we'd have a place to hide", he will say "Well, at least you have not said directly no", showing sadness. He is disappointed by your answer because he'd have liked to run away we the PC.
Just to say that playing the macho with Shandra is different from his way of speaking with the PC.

PS: about Casavir... please, I hate him! He's so... so... well, I think a male should be a male. And a male is crashing the door, entering the room and killing all the enemies, before going and kiss the woman, not always there, doing nothing except "Oh, PC, I want to protect you!"... '

@ Kev_L: Darling, my problem is that I am not a male. So I am not able to think like a male. Try to do an RPG for me. Imagine you have been compelled in joining a group. You travel for, let's say, a week, then, once back in the city, you feel attracted from the leader of this group. By keeping in mind what happens during the mission for rescuing Shandra, please, tell me what, in your male point of view, can have made you fascinated by the PC. Thanks :-)
About the link to the post in the previous pages of this thread... I am still wondering if that user is a male or a female! Really. Once love catches you, you can just deal with it, not rationalize that during a war it is not useful to have a boyfriend!

[kevL]

Vaalyah wrote...

@ Kev_L: Darling, my problem is that I am not a male. So I am not able to think like a male. Try to do an RPG for me. Imagine you have been compelled in joining a group. You travel for, let's say, a week, then, once back in the city, you feel attracted from the leader of this group. By keeping in mind what happens during the mission for rescuing Shandra, please, tell me what, in your male point of view, can have made you fascinated by the PC. Thanks :-)

- flashing me her garter ... oh, you mean pretend I'm a woman?

Let's cut through the genders for a second. You want to know the real reasons for Bishop's apparent change of agenda? The devs walked into the writers' room and said, "Okay, now you guys gotta write Bishop into the party. No excuses. Get him into the party or else." That's why I referred you to a great book by a great writer, that involves a situation with a character just such as Bishop falling in love (against his choice). Of course the narratives are different and you would probably see yourself as a heroine whose capacity far exceeds Vera's or Bela's. Not a problem, it is Pechorin you're looking for insight to.

Perhaps you've answered your own question: you've been alluding to love as a feeling that you want to overcome Bishop. what causes it? It's magic! or a garter belt, or the Devs. (I have been madly in love, btw, and myself i would not simplify it to merely a bunch of endorphins that made me feel good. The symptoms ranged from very 'real' hallucinations to synchronicities too multitudinous to be accounted to haphazard chance.) Now,

About the link to the post in the previous pages of this thread... I am still wondering if that user is a male or a female! Really. Once love catches you, you can just deal with it, not rationalize that during a war it is not useful to have a boyfriend!

Some people can rationalize it away, they're called Lawful. Others give into it, they're Chaotic. I often play CG; my PC is not the boss of my men & men-Lite. They're with me because they've made a choice and want to be there.

By keeping in mind what happens during the mission for rescuing Shandra, please, tell me what, in your male point of view, can have made you fascinated by the PC.

the capability, effectiveness, excitement, & success of the mission (unless there's also a dialog option to flash garter at Bishop, which i didn't see). She's on the way up. He wants in on it. The Executives: "oooh, that's gooooood!!! that's Family. Let's use it!"

The more I think about it, having never played a female PC (well, there was a gnome once ..), that is ingenious




Edit, capitalized L on 'men-Lite'

Modifié par kevL, 23 avril 2011 - 04:24 .

[Vaalyah]

' Darling, if I have to write dialogues, I have to "feel" the character. His way of thinking, his point of view... I have to understand him. For MY characters (I write novels in my free time) I have no problems because I know everything about them. But entering in the mind and behaviour of another's character is difficult. I have to understand Bishop for being able to write dialogues from his perspective. So the "enter the devs and said: go, write" it's not a thing I can use :-D

Of course people can rationalize. I am extremely rational. But love is totally irrational, so one can rationalize about love... as long as s/he is not involved ;-)

I haven't understood the thing about the garter o_O

[kevL]

Vaalyah wrote...

I haven't understood the thing about the garter o_O

add it to the dialog - problem solved

Other than that, why is it so hard to understand that men like excitement and challenge, and success at their opportunities and endeavors? The hard part, it seems to me, is figuring out (not that you need to) why Bishop is so bored (like Pechorin) with his life that he throws himself so desperately at the female PC. And engages in such flamboyant, extravagant behaviors; the answer is simply not in the OC, afaict, hence either the devs enter or make something up!

Personally I think he got jilted in Neverwinter, by a Lady or the court or both ....

[Nightwoe]

I_Raps wrote...

p.s.  I have to agree with Bishop about Casavir, though.  Don't you female players find him cringeworthy?  I've never been a female, buy I've been a feminist my whole life and it seems like Casavir's attitude is exactly what women have been trying to send packing for 50-odd years.

A good point, but some woman (including myself) find a protective streak indearing, even if the woman IS independant. It's something about the knowledge that someone would not hesitate to protect you, even if you are capable of defending yourself. This is how I look at it: no one is invincible, no matter how powerful you are, someone can pull the resources to bring you down. Knowing there is someone by your side that would stop at nothing (speaking of Casavir at the moment) to prevent you from coming to harm, whether it is needed or not.

Of course not everyone feels this way, this is just my feelings on the matter. It's taken me about 30min to write this, curse the TV for being so distracting >.<

[Vaalyah]

@ KevL: ahem... darling... just for the sake of curiosity... do you have a wife? (or a girlfriend, or whatever is suitable for your age) Because it is quite frustrating to read that a man just seems unable to conceive that love can actually exists. Yes, also for not-saint people. If you are reading a book, watching a movie, listening to a story or, like here, playing a videogame, you have to accept that the plot is real. If you just think "this has happened because the author wanted so", you are spoiling the enjoyment to yourself. So, before answering to this thread, please, for few minutes (those necessary to answer), pretend that the OC is actually a real story and that Bishop is in love with the PC! Please!

@ Nightwoe: :-D sure, I am one of those that can't stand Casavir!!! Not that I hate him... it is just that I could never find interesting a boy like him!

[Zaxares]

Vaalyah wrote...

@ Zaxares: very interesting comment about the approach to love for evil characters! However, you have forgotten to consider sado-masochistic relationship (of course, I am not speaking about sex). As in real life there are one of the partner that is over-reactive, demanding, always controlling the other one, that treat the partner as a slave and humiliate him/her. The other partner has a masochistic attitude and can't live without the sadistic one. Just take into consideration those women that are often hit by the husband or when one of the partner has a problem with drug or alcohol...
However, same question as before. In your opinion, what has made Bishop being fascinated by the PC?

In my experience, unless those activities you mention are restricted only to the bedroom or during 'play times', what you describe are actually all the hallmarks of an abusive relationship. The abused partner in such a relationship, over time, will develop what's commonly known as "Stockholm Syndrome", where they mistake an absence of abuse for love and affection. I would argue that such a relationship does not truly contain any love at all; the sadistic partner doesn't care about his or her partner's happiness or well-being at all, only about what they can do for them.

I don't mean to imply that couples who enjoy sado-masochistic ACTIVITIES are not or cannot be loving couples, but when such a relationship is founded on such principles, rather than serving as a 'spice', it tends to develop along unhealthy lines.

As for your second question, that would depend primarily on the type of PC the player ends up playing. Perhaps Bishop simply found the PC sexually attractive and wants nothing more from her (or him? I haven't heard of any homosexual fanfiction involving Bishop, but I'm sure there's some out there!) than a good roll in the hay, or perhaps he admires the PC's strength of will and resilience in the face of difficulty, seeing in her someone who like him, has endured after losing so much.

[Vaalyah]

Sorry for my delayed answer, but I had not received any forum update email in more than a month o_O that's strange, since now that I am manually checking, I had many new posts to read!

"what you describe are actually all the hallmarks of an abusive relationship" yes, it is. But it is considered dangerous only when the couple go over some limits. In every relationship there is a "boss", someone who is an Alpha male or female. I don't know how to provide an example, but if you had ever seen Desperate Housewives series, the character named Brie is an alpha-female, while her housband, Orson (or how it is written) it's obviously an omega-male. However, they are happily in love, because the relationship is balanced.
Of course, if they would exceed some limits, the relationship will become sick.

Thank you for your answer, it is very interesting :-)

[Sarethus]

Zaxares wrote...
As for your second question, that would depend primarily on the type of PC the player ends up playing. Perhaps Bishop simply found the PC sexually attractive and wants nothing more from her (or him? I haven't heard of any homosexual fanfiction involving Bishop, but I'm sure there's some out there!) than a good roll in the hay, or perhaps he admires the PC's strength of will and resilience in the face of difficulty, seeing in her someone who like him, has endured after losing so much.

Not really a fan of Bishop but going by his lines near the End (The bit of there being a 100 Bishops for every PC) my guess would be that over the time chasing Shandra he found out a few details about the PC: 

1) Came from a back water village like Bishop himself.

2) Had somewhat difficult life (depending on Background this could be before leaving West Harbour) which was not his/her fault.

3a) Is a goody goody unlike Bishop yet succeeding at becoming a Hero.                                           

OR

3b) Is a baddy baddy like Bishop yet succeeding at becoming a Hero (or at least an adventurer)

Either one of 3a or 3b would really draw Bishop's attention I feel while the other two would show some similarilities that he would hate. He would at first wait for the PC to fail like Bishop himself did, which would reassure his mental image and be something he could laugh at then leave. However as the PC keeps succeeding he'd grow more and more disturbed. Why is this guy/gal succeeding instead of me? How come all these people follow him/her when no one followed me? This would prompt him to pay more and more attention to the PC. Resulting in love/affection or disgust towards the PC along with grudging Respect for being 1 in a 100.    

Modifié par Sarethus, 09 juin 2011 - 08:57 .

[Vaalyah]

Interesting idea, the problem is that Bishop did a jealous fit just when they came back from rescuing Shandra... far before he could consider PC's success...

[Sarethus]

Vaalyah wrote...

Interesting idea, the problem is that Bishop did a jealous fit just when they came back from rescuing Shandra... far before he could consider PC's success...

How long did the search/rescue for Shandra take? I've always assumed (more on my own personal feeling rather then from being told in the game) that it took about a week either way. 

Plenty of time to hear what the PC has done over the campfire and see how they handle their party. 

Beyond that as far as just after the Shandra Rescue (End of Act 1) goes, consider that some of his comments there (in my view) were more a mixture of winding Casavir up and actually agreeing if treat Shandra as a necessary but not wanted compaion. 

[Vaalyah]

I am referring to his dialogue (just Bishop and the PC) right at the start of chapter 2 (the first moment you talk to him after the start of the chapter). Casavir is not supposed to be hearing and Bishop said something like "Oh, why you speak to me, since you are always with Casavir? You don't need to listen to my words, because you always listen only to him" or something similar... That is a jealousy scene, not a "Casavir, look at me and hide you angry" one in my opinion...

[Sarethus]

 

Vaalyah wrote...
I am referring to his dialogue (just Bishop and the PC) right at the start of chapter 2 (the first moment you talk to him after the start of the chapter). Casavir is not supposed to be hearing and Bishop said something like "Oh, why you speak to me, since you are always with Casavir? You don't need to listen to my words, because you always listen only to him" or something similar... That is a jealousy scene, not a "Casavir, look at me and hide you angry" one in my opinion...

Sorry about that, I thought you were referring the end of Act 1 when the party returned from the Gith Caves. 

I used the toolset to read the convo you refered to as I didn't have a save game handy near there so I might be missing the tone of the converation but I will give my opinion on it:

Firstly do bear in mind that convo (at least according to the Toolset) is only meant to fire if Casavir has more influence points then Bishop. Along with the fact that technically it can fire anytime during Act 2. (Again this is according to the toolset and I know that can mess up at times.) 

So the Jelousy is somewhat founded, Bishop has noticed the PC paying the Paladin more attention. 

As it can happen anytime during Act 2, Bishop has definatly noticed how the Party seemed to rally around the player.

Let's take the worst case example and assume the PC talks to Bishop right at the start of Act 2 (after Nevalle's and Sand's appearence.):

1) He has been a "Patron" of the Flagon for as long as the PC has been there. He has definately noticed things about the PC and probably overheard a few others such as whom she speaks to.

2) Put in a Week long trip to Gith Caves and a Week long trip back. Again plenty of time to notice things as well as learn about the PC's background. At the Gith Caves, he will have seen the player fight against Demons and Devils and come out on top generally.

2b) As an aside note, how long do you think was the time interval between Act 1 and Act 2, Normally I'd put it in as at least another week to train Shandra into being a decent fighter but that's just me. 

3) He will have seen some of the party Neeshka and Shandra definatly and depending on the dialog Khelgar and Qara ready to stand with the player against Luskan. 

 All of these things would to a degree catch Bishop's Interest. Now if that Interest became troubled by the PC paying Casavir more attention...

One comment I should make though is that I tend to try to 'complete' any RPG that I play as in mentally fill in small bits of missing information. That is why I draw attention to things such as Bishop noticing our character before he even joins the group. 

Modifié par Sarethus, 10 juin 2011 - 11:44 .

[Vaalyah]

I had never looked at that dialogue in the toolset, but I trust your words about it.
1) I think it's obvious the PC has more influence with Casavir than Bishop, just because Bishop has just joined the group.
2) it is also obvious that Bishop would have a jealous exploit if he sees that the PC is more "friend" with the paladin than him.
from these, I'd say it's a normal situation: Bishop join the group because he likes the PC (end of chapter 1) but soon he realised that Casavir likes the PC too, so, since he wants the PC, he throws a jealousy scene. I'd say this is just a normal behaviour in a jealousy condition.

Of course you can trigger that conversation extremely late during the chapter (not so late, after the details of the trial, Bishop has another dialogue triggered, if I remember correctly), but I think it has been meant to take place just at the start of the chapter.

However, I followed your words and even if I can't say you're wrong, there's something I disagree. My impression is that all you guys (all you MALE guys) simply don't want to accept the fact that also a non-good character could fall in love. Maybe Bishop felt in love of the PC because he noticed that she's strong, she's a chief, she has charisma... I don't know. But the thing is, for whatever reason he has felt in love, just summarizing all the problems in "he's not in love, he just envies her hero status" seems absurd to me o_O

[Seagloom]

I already wrote my thoughts on Bishop at length before. Suffice it to say I still vehemently disagree with your opinion. I just wanted to address something minor here.

Vaalyah wrote...

1) I think it's obvious the PC has more influence with Casavir than Bishop, just because Bishop has just joined the group.

It is entirely possible to have higher influence with Bishop than Casavir at this point. A KC acting evilly around Casavir will have lower influence with him. If that same KC then acts ruthlessly around Bishop and refrains from insults, her influence with him rises, and could quickly overtake her low standing with Casavir.

I have never seen that dialogue early in act two precisely because my characters rarely got along with Casavir any more than Bishop.

[Vaalyah]

What does "KC" stand for?
There are companions I like more and companions I like less. However, my PC tries her best not to offend anyone, like everyone would do in real life, in order to keep the group united. This is the reason why, even if I barely stand Casavir, I still have a decent influence score with him!

[Seagloom]

It depends on my PC. I have played characters that try to get on everyone's good side. I have also played characters a bit truer to myself in that they express their opinion openly. If an NPC dislikes it, well screw 'em. Usually I have Sand or Qara on my characters' bad side. Casavir is practically a guarantee unless I play a very honorable and heroic type. I have the easiest time gaining influence with Shandra, Elanee, Khelgar and Neeshka in most games.

KC is an acronym for Knight-Captain or Kalach-Cha depending on who uses it. Basically it is shorthand for the player character in NWN2 and MotB. I prefer Kalach-Cha since it is more exotic and rolls off the tongue nicely.

Modifié par Seagloom, 12 juin 2011 - 08:00 .

[Sarethus]

Vaalyah wrote...

I had never looked at that dialogue in the toolset, but I trust your words about it.
1) I think it's obvious the PC has more influence with Casavir than Bishop, just because Bishop has just joined the group.
2) it is also obvious that Bishop would have a jealous exploit if he sees that the PC is more "friend" with the paladin than him.
from these, I'd say it's a normal situation: Bishop join the group because he likes the PC (end of chapter 1) but soon he realised that Casavir likes the PC too, so, since he wants the PC, he throws a jealousy scene. I'd say this is just a normal behaviour in a jealousy condition.

Of course you can trigger that conversation extremely late during the chapter (not so late, after the details of the trial, Bishop has another dialogue triggered, if I remember correctly), but I think it has been meant to take place just at the start of the chapter.

Counted the Rep points possible, it is possible to get 10 or so points with Casavir before Bishop joins the party. It is also possible to get about 12 or so points with Bishop before Act 2 (Note: quite a few of these points would result in negative approval either from Cas or another character.)

So it is possbile but unlikely. If your trying to be diplomatic with everyone as Bishop tends to run people the wrong way.

Vaalyah wrote...
However, I followed your words and even if I can't say you're wrong, there's something I disagree. My impression is that all you guys (all you MALE guys) simply don't want to accept the fact that also a non-good character could fall in love. Maybe Bishop felt in love of the PC because he noticed that she's strong, she's a chief, she has charisma... I don't know. But the thing is, for whatever reason he has felt in love, just summarizing all the problems in "he's not in love, he just envies her hero status" seems absurd to me o_O

Oh, I do believe that he is in love with the KC  (Knight-Captain) but I myself believe what initially drew his attention was her relative success as compared to him. Even by the time of the Gith Caves expedition it is fairly obvious that the Knight-Captain is a go-getter or on the path of success (along with great danger) and that draws Bishop's attention especially as I stated before about the similarity with the KC's background. 

"You see, for every West Harbor that gives rise to someone like you... someone great... there's a hundred of me, that end up going down the other path."