Oh, my favourite stalker! :-D How are you, darling? I've been away a while due to job, but I hope in the next weeks I could take my schedule in this forum back as usual (I have not been playing NWN2 since April, go, figure!)
I don't pretend a so shocking (and completely different from the game end) epilogue, but maybe the possibility for the PC not to choose Casavir, but Bishop. In this way, Bishop could not betray the PC (or maybe running away due to different reason, ie: "I can't stand to see you running straight towards your death. Escape with me!" "No, I can't, I have to save all the world" "Well, I will not stay here, waiting for your death. Goodbye!" or whatever silly reason) but dead nonetheless!
In this way, at least, the player's choice will have a meaning... :-/
About Bishop's behaviours and personality
Débuté par
Vaalyah
, août 19 2010 09:22
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#127
Posté 14 septembre 2011 - 11:28
kevL
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oh, i'm Fine.
just trying to keep your hopes up for that ending you deserve
sounds like you've got the details, so .....
just trying to keep your hopes up for that ending you deserve
sounds like you've got the details, so .....
#128
Posté 15 septembre 2011 - 01:00
mungbean
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Casavir is way too friendly for a Paladin. Charlemagne was the original Paladin (Sir Lancelot is more like a Templar), and he was a religious zealot who knew he was so right most people believed him, if if they didn't they got lanced. Casavir wouldn't talk to you, you talk to him while your words are judged by God. This is really a very complicated character to write without being cartoonish, they're rather extreme and will be celebrated completely differently between demographics (eg. philanthropist, arrogant narcissist, kind leader, disturbed and short tempered, etc.).
But of course you've got two huge restrictions, these npc's will be player controlled. That's a massive problem for plot scripting with them. The other is the D&D alignment system is inherently subjective and generalised, every political system works mechanically for different people so the alignment system only works if you view sociology as working that way, if it speaks to you as a working system. Many people don't see it that way, Players get into frustrated philosophical and theological debates over it. This is also very restrictive (like saying you can describe every political devotee as a type of Democrat, making it a game rule just restricts all players to being democrats).
Sir Lancelot, certainly a knight of a monastic order but definitely no Paladin. Stylised modern reimaginings of Arthurian myth aside, scientists believe it was derived and constructed about the 5th century with more ancient elements and represented Welsh Christianisation, Arthurian Myth is historically the marriage of early Christianity with local pagan beliefs for the purpose of recruiting the population, ergo Sir Lancelot is most likely a Roman cavalry officer charaquáture, whom were invariably nobility since nobody else could afford horses and éntourage to tend them, the Christian themes were added by Missionary influence and culturally absorbed later.
They did the same thing with Norse mythology, it's far more brutal and lacks many familiar themes in early Germanic rendition.
If someone asks you to picture a Valkyrie you think of a Nordic shieldmaiden right? Brynhild, tall blonde hair, tough fighter, loves hard, is a demigod.
That's not what a Valkyrie is, that's the Christianisation, the Brynhild myth is a late one probably introduced or heavily influenced by Missionaries in the 8th century (it was never first recorded until well after then).
Germanic mythology predating European Christianisation paints a completely different picture. Valkyries are related to the much more nightmarish raw Celtic beliefs in things like faerie (undead and rather violently homicidal gods that hang around in adjacent dimensions), their literal definition is "battlefield horrors" and their names are things like Shrieking, Scratching, Terror, etc. and most definitely not things like Brynhild. They do not look like swimwear models in sexy armour.
They appear as twisted shadows within stormy clouds near battlefields, a bit like deathknights riding nightmares only always in peripheral vision and feminine in aspect. Odin being the chief patron of battlefield insanity, and his wife Freia of lust and passion (in early germanic, in later nordic Frigga was his wife and Freja became more classical era love goddess), both shared some influence over the Valkyries being both connected to the driving forces involved with men killing each other én masse.
So it's the same thing sort of, with Paladins and knights. Most of what the modern entertainment industry depicts is a little off historically, it wasn't nearly so idealistic. Mostly it was just far more brutal.
Pull a Lawful Good Paladin from the 8th century and you'd be looking at a Chaotic Evil serial killer in modern USA. Being a lawful good paladin and maintaining alignment is nothing more than sheer righteous conviction. His alignment in terms of what others celebrate is entirely circumstantial, regional and political. Bin Laden is a paladin and probably maintained alignment, he's just a few centuries behind the times like the Japanese were in the Pacific expansionism, this is like political science 101. Alignment is subjective by definition.
This has been a very long and roundabout way of gently bringing readers around to the conclusion that the game developers failed a little in character development for Casavir (and Bishop and all the major npc's), by writing too much within the restrictions of the D&D alignment system to define their personalities and dialogue.
It could've been much more free, and interesting and involved, without in any way threatening their alignment. But it takes some solid creative experience I think to sort of get how that works and then get that understanding into the script.
But of course you've got two huge restrictions, these npc's will be player controlled. That's a massive problem for plot scripting with them. The other is the D&D alignment system is inherently subjective and generalised, every political system works mechanically for different people so the alignment system only works if you view sociology as working that way, if it speaks to you as a working system. Many people don't see it that way, Players get into frustrated philosophical and theological debates over it. This is also very restrictive (like saying you can describe every political devotee as a type of Democrat, making it a game rule just restricts all players to being democrats).
Sir Lancelot, certainly a knight of a monastic order but definitely no Paladin. Stylised modern reimaginings of Arthurian myth aside, scientists believe it was derived and constructed about the 5th century with more ancient elements and represented Welsh Christianisation, Arthurian Myth is historically the marriage of early Christianity with local pagan beliefs for the purpose of recruiting the population, ergo Sir Lancelot is most likely a Roman cavalry officer charaquáture, whom were invariably nobility since nobody else could afford horses and éntourage to tend them, the Christian themes were added by Missionary influence and culturally absorbed later.
They did the same thing with Norse mythology, it's far more brutal and lacks many familiar themes in early Germanic rendition.
If someone asks you to picture a Valkyrie you think of a Nordic shieldmaiden right? Brynhild, tall blonde hair, tough fighter, loves hard, is a demigod.
That's not what a Valkyrie is, that's the Christianisation, the Brynhild myth is a late one probably introduced or heavily influenced by Missionaries in the 8th century (it was never first recorded until well after then).
Germanic mythology predating European Christianisation paints a completely different picture. Valkyries are related to the much more nightmarish raw Celtic beliefs in things like faerie (undead and rather violently homicidal gods that hang around in adjacent dimensions), their literal definition is "battlefield horrors" and their names are things like Shrieking, Scratching, Terror, etc. and most definitely not things like Brynhild. They do not look like swimwear models in sexy armour.
They appear as twisted shadows within stormy clouds near battlefields, a bit like deathknights riding nightmares only always in peripheral vision and feminine in aspect. Odin being the chief patron of battlefield insanity, and his wife Freia of lust and passion (in early germanic, in later nordic Frigga was his wife and Freja became more classical era love goddess), both shared some influence over the Valkyries being both connected to the driving forces involved with men killing each other én masse.
So it's the same thing sort of, with Paladins and knights. Most of what the modern entertainment industry depicts is a little off historically, it wasn't nearly so idealistic. Mostly it was just far more brutal.
Pull a Lawful Good Paladin from the 8th century and you'd be looking at a Chaotic Evil serial killer in modern USA. Being a lawful good paladin and maintaining alignment is nothing more than sheer righteous conviction. His alignment in terms of what others celebrate is entirely circumstantial, regional and political. Bin Laden is a paladin and probably maintained alignment, he's just a few centuries behind the times like the Japanese were in the Pacific expansionism, this is like political science 101. Alignment is subjective by definition.
This has been a very long and roundabout way of gently bringing readers around to the conclusion that the game developers failed a little in character development for Casavir (and Bishop and all the major npc's), by writing too much within the restrictions of the D&D alignment system to define their personalities and dialogue.
It could've been much more free, and interesting and involved, without in any way threatening their alignment. But it takes some solid creative experience I think to sort of get how that works and then get that understanding into the script.
#129
Posté 15 septembre 2011 - 02:04
I_Raps
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Vaalyah wrote...
...In this way, Bishop could not betray the PC (or maybe running away due to different reason, ie: "I can't stand to see you running straight towards your death. Escape with me!" "No, I can't, I have to save all the world" "Well, I will not stay here, waiting for your death. Goodbye!" or whatever silly reason) but dead nonetheless!
And then, instead of a betrayal, the gate could be broken open accidentally by Deekin and Grobnar hitting the same high note!
I like it!
#130
Posté 15 septembre 2011 - 04:02
mungbean
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Well under the alignment system cowardice and the driving ambition to save his own skin is perfectly in character for a chaotic evil alignment, they don't scheme much they just don't think ahead much and have no social conscience. They live in their own narcissistic world.
In psychology a catalyst might be used as a tool such as accompanying a display of cowardice with a paranoid psychotic break, this is a perfectly common proxy for antisocial behaviour (part of why it can become a behavioural disorder like ADD, it's all very mechanical and amounts to self hypnosis but this doesn't dimish its application).
This is why people like serial killers are completely irrational from our normal perspective. They run largely on custom order delusions (also why they're not often legally insane, it's intentional and is only elective incapacity although serial killers often have behavioural disorders). It's a technique of believing your own lies con artists and the like develop, people with questionable morals, it wrecks them but it's like an investment return philosophy. Like choosing not to see good rationalé and forcing yourself to believe there is none to see or other concerns take precedence, in classical terminology it's called simply neurosis. In the short term it makes a pretty cunning, if simplistic adversary.
In criminal profiling kind of thinking to my view, Bishop in the OC plot would be utterly likely to turn on any alignment PC and completely alienate them as mock catalyst. He'd probably try to blame them somehow as to why he must leave and save his own skin. Say if he fell for the PC he might say something like, "You're just like the others, you just want to manipulate me!"
If opposing alignment and low influence it might be more like plain hatred for humanity in general, like basically Bishop falling for someone just means when he carves them up in the basement it's just going to be all the more personal, that's chaotic evil folks. He's not a badboy, by definition he's psychotic and dangerous to anyone and everyone all the time.
Bishop's personality disorder is clearly tied to his faithlessness in the divine which, within the gaming world effectively represents lunacy. We're talking about someone whom forces themselves to see red when you say blue.
He's not rebellious, he's irrational for escapism and because of a bad temper he simply refuses to control for any reason. He's his own worst enemy. This is what a chaotic evil personality is like.
He's not a badboy, his alignment dictates his actions since actions define the man, ergo any PC choice or path with Bishop cannot yield different results in any major plot points which affect Bishop directly. He will always do a similar thing unless he changes alignment. what's missing here is the ability to affect companion alignment shifts with the PC influence system, like in Kotor II.
In psychology a catalyst might be used as a tool such as accompanying a display of cowardice with a paranoid psychotic break, this is a perfectly common proxy for antisocial behaviour (part of why it can become a behavioural disorder like ADD, it's all very mechanical and amounts to self hypnosis but this doesn't dimish its application).
This is why people like serial killers are completely irrational from our normal perspective. They run largely on custom order delusions (also why they're not often legally insane, it's intentional and is only elective incapacity although serial killers often have behavioural disorders). It's a technique of believing your own lies con artists and the like develop, people with questionable morals, it wrecks them but it's like an investment return philosophy. Like choosing not to see good rationalé and forcing yourself to believe there is none to see or other concerns take precedence, in classical terminology it's called simply neurosis. In the short term it makes a pretty cunning, if simplistic adversary.
In criminal profiling kind of thinking to my view, Bishop in the OC plot would be utterly likely to turn on any alignment PC and completely alienate them as mock catalyst. He'd probably try to blame them somehow as to why he must leave and save his own skin. Say if he fell for the PC he might say something like, "You're just like the others, you just want to manipulate me!"
If opposing alignment and low influence it might be more like plain hatred for humanity in general, like basically Bishop falling for someone just means when he carves them up in the basement it's just going to be all the more personal, that's chaotic evil folks. He's not a badboy, by definition he's psychotic and dangerous to anyone and everyone all the time.
Bishop's personality disorder is clearly tied to his faithlessness in the divine which, within the gaming world effectively represents lunacy. We're talking about someone whom forces themselves to see red when you say blue.
He's not rebellious, he's irrational for escapism and because of a bad temper he simply refuses to control for any reason. He's his own worst enemy. This is what a chaotic evil personality is like.
He's not a badboy, his alignment dictates his actions since actions define the man, ergo any PC choice or path with Bishop cannot yield different results in any major plot points which affect Bishop directly. He will always do a similar thing unless he changes alignment. what's missing here is the ability to affect companion alignment shifts with the PC influence system, like in Kotor II.
#131
Posté 15 septembre 2011 - 05:07
kevL
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i'd like to play a module by you, mungbean. I think it would be warped up the wazoo 
Agreed.mungbean wrote...
what's missing here is the ability to affect companion alignment shifts with the PC influence system ...
#132
Posté 15 septembre 2011 - 05:49
Vaalyah
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mungbean wrote...
Pull a Lawful Good Paladin from the 8th century and you'd be looking at a Chaotic Evil serial killer in modern USA.
This sentence is wonderful!!!
@ I_Raps: still haven't finished the game (thought I know he's going to betray the PC), so I don't know anything about gates and whatever, sorry :-) However, if the problem is just that, the game could use a "random not-important character" to abandon the Keep and forgot the gate open :-D
mungbean wrote...
He's not a badboy, his alignment dictates his actions since actions define the man, ergo any PC choice or path with Bishop cannot yield different results in any major plot points which affect Bishop directly.
this is the problem I've found in the plot. Whatever the PC does, it would not affect the plot at all. I can find a sense in Bishop's betrayal when the female PC has a romance with Casavir (you know, jealousy, revenge, pride, etc), but if the female PC is actually in love with him, why should he behave like this nonetheless? It is not irrational, it is just stupid!
I agree with Kev... I would like to play a module by you too!
#133
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 01:34
Seagloom
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His betrayal actually comes across as more logical and meaningful if a female KC has a high influence with him. Just my opinion, but I thought it made perfect sense if you take everything about Bishop's personality into account. He was one of the few party members without strange disconnects in his characterization due to cut content; unlike say Casavir, Qara, or Sand.
#134
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 02:17
nino1979
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The reason Bishop acts the way he does is cause he's is CE.CE types tend to be self-centered,egoistical and generally leave bad taste in mouth.He's envious beacuse people want to follow PC(be he/she Good or Evil) and that the PC is getting all the glory.He wants to be the leader the Man so to speak,but since he can't He acts in abusive manner to everyone.Of course seening how formidable is PC and companions are He's acting like like viper trying to sow Chaos and Discord betwen characters,or acting like a puppy around KC to gain favors.For instace look at other Evil Character Jerro how obviously dosen't like PC(you killed his granddaughter;willingly or not,and striped him of his mojo),but he doesn't hide it and joins KC out of necessity.Bishop on other hand is oportunist,and I don't think he has any regrets of his past.He simply wants the best stuff for himself be it KC or if not "wining" with Garius.
#135
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 06:22
mungbean
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I bought all these games again so I could relearn the toolset and make a module or two.
@nino Bishop knows he's going to wind up in the wall of the faithless. He chooses this rather than face his guilt over a mass murder in some cut content. This is more the root of his psychosis and other elements of it are just its nature playing out. What he needs to let go of for sanity, he refuses to for guilt and the threat of compassion. So he is effectively criminally insane about everything.
Say red, he sees blue. And it aint an intellectual disability.
@nino Bishop knows he's going to wind up in the wall of the faithless. He chooses this rather than face his guilt over a mass murder in some cut content. This is more the root of his psychosis and other elements of it are just its nature playing out. What he needs to let go of for sanity, he refuses to for guilt and the threat of compassion. So he is effectively criminally insane about everything.
Say red, he sees blue. And it aint an intellectual disability.
#137
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 09:18
nino1979
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and Bishop actually worships a god...Malar the Beastlord,so Malar may turn him into psycho badger or somethin' rofl
#138
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 10:56
Seagloom
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He doesn't worship any god according to his character sheet. It says "none" in the deity entry. Besides, if he did worship Malar his ultimate fate wouldn't make any sense.
#139
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 01:13
Esther
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If Bishop worshiped Malar, on one hand his ultimate fate would make sense due to the central meaning of the prey-predator relationship in Malar's Dogma, where everything is about survival of the fittest and killing of the weak, where a brutal, bloody death has a great meaning, and the moment the wall swallows him, Bishop is the weak, the prey, thus quick to accept his fate.
But, it is the Wall of the Faithless, created to absorb faithless souls and those with no patron deity.So I plead for "faithlessness in the divine", as previously nicely formulated.
I join you in hoping to play a module by Mungbean some day
But, it is the Wall of the Faithless, created to absorb faithless souls and those with no patron deity.So I plead for "faithlessness in the divine", as previously nicely formulated.
I join you in hoping to play a module by Mungbean some day
#140
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 01:49
Seagloom
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The reason it would not make sense is because mortals who worship Malar are transformed into savage beasts that hunt alongside him in the afterlife. They do not end up in the Wall of the Faithless. I did wonder once why Bishop was not a Malarite, considering his beliefs appear similar. I can only surmise the writers planned his ending before MotB was greenlit. Then again, following Malar would require he voluntarily subordinate himself. Given his actions after almost doing just that with the KC and later, Black Garius, Bishop is likely incapable of true faith in a deity.
Modifié par Seagloom, 16 septembre 2011 - 02:48 .
#141
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 02:10
nino1979
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To "Seagloom",sorry u are wrong he's Malarite.I checked his sheet,the only "faithless" in game are Jerro and Zahjevee wich strikes me odd since she's Cleric,Jerro on other hand is warlock.The Bishop is simply put a Malarite rat;he'll nibble the butt of strong,but rip weak to shreds..
#142
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 02:16
Quixal
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In the story, Bishop is faithless. The character sheets are relatively meaningless in this regard as Zhjaeve illustrates.
#143
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 02:28
chiliztri
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What Quix said. He's faithless, plain and simple. Hence why he ends up in the Wall of the Faithless.
#144
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 02:29
Seagloom
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That's odd. I'm positive his deity entry had none last time I played. I'd go check, but those saves are long gone. Are you using any OC altering mods? I suppose it doesn't matter either way since as Quixal wrote, he's considered faithless by the story.
#145
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 02:31
chiliztri
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I'm pretty sure his deity was left empty, Gloo.
#146
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 04:18
mungbean
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Bishop's UTC says he's got no deity. He must have "none" on his character sheet in game.
Gith are a special case because they're native to the astral and generally live on the carcasses of dead powers like island nations. Their most powerful rulers are capable of granting spells. This is enhanced by both the plane itself and its quasi-deific contents. When Zhjaeve says she worships no deity, it's because her "mortal" posthumous king and ruler, Gith was one. She just thinks of him as a person, a legendary hero, like the Lich Queen is to the Yanki.
It's a weird situation with outsiders in general but most especially an organised and holistic race like the Gith. They live in their cities just like the dead followers of a god in the afterlife. There's latent divine magic just laying around the Astral (less exciting and more dangerous a point in practise), Gith I think are safely exempt from the faithless fate when selecting no deity. Read the old 2E Monstrous Compendium on them, they gain divine spells granted by the Lich Queen or in the case of the Zerai their most powerful rulers (effectively avatars of Gith). They don't recognise them as gods, that's all but it doesn't change that they are and their respective subraces are generally perfectly faithful followers. I think what you'll find is that the Gith become State employees within their cities, bureacrats, essential services and administration shades when they die, most deific realms work like this on the planes. Dead gith do stuff like horticulture whilst the live ones run around being warriors and stuff (dead dudes have to stay within their deity's realm or their souls get snapped up by wandering fiends and the deity loses power).
Now a disenfranchised, live Gith living on some other plane who selected no deity might have a problem...
See that's how and why the whole faithless thing works. D&D has the laws of physics turned upside down, magic is real and you can prove it, so is divine magic and so are deities. Hey if you're really that curious you can physically go visit one and discuss it, but expect an exacting cost.
It's actually irrational in the game world to not recognise the observation of magic and the divine.
Ergo it's the same rules for the Faithless as we have IRL for the Religious Fundamentalist-Extremist, they swap places. No deity is crazy talk.
Or...angry talk. Very very angry talk.
That's why the punishment. Gods are nothing if not vain.
Gith are a special case because they're native to the astral and generally live on the carcasses of dead powers like island nations. Their most powerful rulers are capable of granting spells. This is enhanced by both the plane itself and its quasi-deific contents. When Zhjaeve says she worships no deity, it's because her "mortal" posthumous king and ruler, Gith was one. She just thinks of him as a person, a legendary hero, like the Lich Queen is to the Yanki.
It's a weird situation with outsiders in general but most especially an organised and holistic race like the Gith. They live in their cities just like the dead followers of a god in the afterlife. There's latent divine magic just laying around the Astral (less exciting and more dangerous a point in practise), Gith I think are safely exempt from the faithless fate when selecting no deity. Read the old 2E Monstrous Compendium on them, they gain divine spells granted by the Lich Queen or in the case of the Zerai their most powerful rulers (effectively avatars of Gith). They don't recognise them as gods, that's all but it doesn't change that they are and their respective subraces are generally perfectly faithful followers. I think what you'll find is that the Gith become State employees within their cities, bureacrats, essential services and administration shades when they die, most deific realms work like this on the planes. Dead gith do stuff like horticulture whilst the live ones run around being warriors and stuff (dead dudes have to stay within their deity's realm or their souls get snapped up by wandering fiends and the deity loses power).
Now a disenfranchised, live Gith living on some other plane who selected no deity might have a problem...
See that's how and why the whole faithless thing works. D&D has the laws of physics turned upside down, magic is real and you can prove it, so is divine magic and so are deities. Hey if you're really that curious you can physically go visit one and discuss it, but expect an exacting cost.
It's actually irrational in the game world to not recognise the observation of magic and the divine.
Ergo it's the same rules for the Faithless as we have IRL for the Religious Fundamentalist-Extremist, they swap places. No deity is crazy talk.
Or...angry talk. Very very angry talk.
That's why the punishment. Gods are nothing if not vain.
#147
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 04:30
mungbean
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My Bishop hates life. He hates you. He hates People. He hates himself. He did something, something really bad.
Really really bad. You can't take that back. You just can't. Every time he kills and he always wants to kill, it's like ripping his own heart out. He will kill you especially if he respects you, he must ruin you if he likes you. He must confirm his self opinion.
Has to.
And he knows, he knows what awaits.
That is evil.
Really really bad. You can't take that back. You just can't. Every time he kills and he always wants to kill, it's like ripping his own heart out. He will kill you especially if he respects you, he must ruin you if he likes you. He must confirm his self opinion.
Has to.
And he knows, he knows what awaits.
That is evil.
- Cat Lance aime ceci
#148
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 06:39
nino1979
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Don't get me wrong here in my OC he's Malarite,and I am not using any mods.Not trying to be stubborn or to argue with anyone,but anyho u are right Mung.Bishop is Evil,not Chaotic but Psychotic.
#149
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 07:28
Vaalyah
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@ Mungbean: wonderful description but... I disagree with the conclusion. He's not like this because he's evil. He's like this because he's desperate. About himself.
@ Nino: in the Italian version, Bishop has not deity.
@ Everyone: guys, even the must dreadful murders actually can fall in love. Why you just assume Bishop can't just because he's evil?
@ Nino: in the Italian version, Bishop has not deity.
@ Everyone: guys, even the must dreadful murders actually can fall in love. Why you just assume Bishop can't just because he's evil?
#150
Posté 16 septembre 2011 - 07:45
nino1979
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@Vaal it's not beacuse Bishop is Evil;it's his personality.Bishop is psychopath,mentaly unstable.He simply can't love anyone beacuse that for him is show of weakness.He becomes a "prey" in his twisted litle mind if he shows emotion and that makes him paranoid cause he's haunted by all the people he killed.That's why he drinks and acts the way he does.I played several diffrent characters with evil aligment and had paladins,cleric,druids fall for me without switchin' aligment.The Bishop can't do it cause he's broken and twisted,and simply lacks any sense of conduct...
