143 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Canned Bullets wrote...

Yeah it won't matter if you save the base or not either way your squadmates will still support you. Think of it as doing Cerberus a favor so they don't get indoctrinated because they spend so much time in a Reaper structure.

That's not entirely true.  If you save the base, virtually every one of your squaddies all but calls you an idiot for trusting TIM to your face, but they do say they trust you and are behind you.

-Polaris

[FourSixEight]

IanPolaris wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...

Yeah it won't matter if you save the base or not either way your squadmates will still support you. Think of it as doing Cerberus a favor so they don't get indoctrinated because they spend so much time in a Reaper structure.

That's not entirely true.  If you save the base, virtually every one of your squaddies all but calls you an idiot for trusting TIM to your face, but they do say they trust you and are behind you.

-Polaris

Then one set of reactions (destroy the base) appears to be genuine on their part and one does not.

[Zulu_DFA]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Pretty much half the crew advises you to keep it. Namely: Legion, Mordin, Zaeed, Grunt and Garrus.

Are you sure? I never had Legion with me at the moment of choice, but I know for a fact that he doesn't want you to keep it.

He doesn't want Humans to use the "gifts of the old Machines". For all we know about the naive childish robot, he may think that the Humans could freely choose to turn themselves into Reapers... And maybe he is not so wrong about it, given the amount of people who want to live after death via something they call "salvation"... But Legion is all for studying the Reaper tech. In fact, he does it himself, when he comes to the Derelict Reaper to study it and develop countermeasures to the expected Heretics' cyber-offensive. So yeah...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 20 août 2010 - 07:27 .

[FourSixEight]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Pretty much half the crew advises you to keep it. Namely: Legion, Mordin, Zaeed, Grunt and Garrus.

Are you sure? I never had Legion with me at the moment of choice, but I know for a fact that he doesn't want you to keep it.

He doesn't wants Humans to use the "gifts of the old Machines". For all we know about the naive childish robot, he may think that the Humans may freely choose to turn themselves into Reapers... And maybe he is not so wrong about it, given the amount of people who expect to live after death via something they call "salvation"... But Legion is all for studying the Reaper tech. In fact, he does it himself, when he comes to the Derelict Reaper to study in and develop countermeasures to the expected Heretics' cyber-offensive. So yeah...

First you're calling him a naive, childish robot and then you're claiming to understand his intentions? I'm just having difficulty seeing where that comes from. I don't really think it's physically possible for machines to be childish.

Modifié par FourSixEight, 20 août 2010 - 07:14 .

[IanPolaris]

FourSixEight wrote...

Then one set of reactions (destroy the base) appears to be genuine on their part and one does not.

Or rather, a bunch of then had serious second thoughts especially given your last conversation with TIM.  Honestly, I think that is far more likely.

-Polaris

[Zulu_DFA]

FourSixEight wrote...

I don't really think it's physically possible for machines to be childish.

You need to read the classics of the sci-fi then. Robert A. Heinlein, "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".

[Zulu_DFA]

XtremegamerHK47 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

So I did the final fight with Miranda and if you chose to blow the base - she resigns from Cerberus.

Before I did this I thought the arguments *for* Cerberus were pretty tenuous at best.. but I am really struggling to see why anyone would support TIM at all (post ME2)... pretty much the entire crew think you should blow it.

Pretty much half the crew advises you to keep it. Namely: Legion, Mordin, Zaeed, Grunt and Garrus.

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
I know this topic is a very flogged horse,

So why bring it up again, just because of some goof by a silly overconfident b*tch who is in the business only for her daddy issues?

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
but I'm having a hard time really accepting there's any situation than an EVIL one where you're gonna side with TIM... and I mean EVIL and not renegade...

Are TIM supporters just being contrarians and oppositionists... or are there some decent arguments pro cerberus that haven't been discussed yet?

Duty calls. And since Shepard's superiors (Anderson, Udina and Hackett) are apparently OK with that, he'll do his part in the Cerberus' ranks.

Actually, those people you named will side against keeping it after the decision is made. If you talk to them Post suicide, most, mainly Legion, Applaud your decision to blow it up.

Actually, those people I named will side with TIM for keeping it during the decision being made.

[FourSixEight]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FourSixEight wrote...

I don't really think it's physically possible for machines to be childish.

You need to read the classics of the sci-fi then. Robert A. Heinlein, "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".

No bearing on Mass Effect. I know his works are wonderful, but that's not what we're talking about, now are we?

[PsyrenY]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

He doesn't want Humans to use the "gifts of the old Machines". For all we know about the naive childish robot, he may think that the Humans could freely choose to turn themselves into Reapers... And maybe he is not so wrong about it, given the amount of people who want to live after death via something they call "salvation"... But Legion is all for studying the Reaper tech. In fact, he does it himself, when he comes to the Derelict Reaper to study it and develop countermeasures to the expected Heretics' cyber-offensive. So yeah...

But you yourself just pointed out the difference. Legion has no desire to "use the gifts of the Old Machines." Sure, he studied the reaper to understand the weapon (i.e. the virus) that would be used against his people, but the countermeasure to that weapon - the knowledge of how to repurpose/delete it - that knowledge was his own.

Furthermore, Legion's plan from the beginning was to counter the virus and then delete it. TIM plans to use the Collector Station "to secure humanity's dominance against the Reapers and beyond." That last bit is key. He has no intentions of relinquishing/destroying the technology even after the Reapers are dealt with; he wants to use their technology to keep the other races of the Galaxy in line, forever. And to TIM, that line starts BEHIND humanity.

[IanPolaris]

That's how I see it too. If you give TIM/Cerberus the base, you are charting a course where TIM will ultimately turn humanity into the very thing we're trying to fight in the best traditions of Nietzche (sp?). It is this that Legion dissaproves of.



-Polaris

[Ieldra]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

So I did the final fight with Miranda and if you chose to blow the base - she resigns from Cerberus.

Before I did this I thought the arguments *for* Cerberus were pretty tenuous at best.. but I am really struggling to see why anyone would support TIM at all (post ME2)... pretty much the entire crew think you should blow it.

I know this topic is a very flogged horse, but I'm having a hard time really accepting there's any situation than an EVIL one where you're gonna side with TIM... and I mean EVIL and not renegade...

Are TIM supporters just being contrarians and oppositionists... or are there some decent arguments pro cerberus that haven't been discussed yet?

I don't necessarily support everything that TIM does. But I do believe in the concept of the necessary evil, particularly, that there are situations in which you can't be overly squeamisch about the methods you use to achieve your goals, especially when those goals include your own survival.

So, for any questionable thing TIM does, I won't ask "is this evil" as the primary question, but "Is this necessary?" What's done at the Teltan facility clearly is not, and the things at the Overlord project are completely superfluous  if you talked with Legion and did his loyalty quest. But keeping the Collector base, in my opinion, is very much necessary, and to destroy it a strategic mistake of the first order. I wish I could keep it myself and research it with a team of my own, but if the price of keeping it is to let TIM have it, then that's that.

The one thing I resent most about the ending (except the ridiculous human Reaper) is that Miranda's resignation is tied to the destruction of the base, which means I never get to see it. I want to switch her loyalty from TIM to Shepard, but I won't destroy the base in all but one of my playthroughs.

And while mos of the crew express doubts after you decided to keep the base, what they say before is much more balanced:
Garrus: I don't know, Shepard. What happened here was horrible, but we have to stop the Reapers. If we destroy this base then all these people died for nothing.
Grunt: He's right. When your enemy gives you a weapon, you use it. You might not get another chance.
Legion: Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.
Mordin: Agreed. Collector base horrific. Vile experiments, but should use what's here. Risks galaxy to ignore opportunity.
Zaeed: Someone gives you a weapon, you don't complain that it's dirty--you use it.
I only wonder why Miranda doesn't say something similar. It would fit her personality more. But then she's an LI, and it seems Bioware won't have LIs promote Renegade decisions.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 août 2010 - 08:20 .

[MajesticJazz]

Miranda can resign from Cerberus? How do you do that?

[IanPolaris]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Miranda can resign from Cerberus? How do you do that?

Take her with you on the very final mission and destroy the base.  Miranda will resign from Cerberus.

-Polaris

[PsyrenY]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I only wonder why Miranda doesn't say
something similar. It would fit her personality more. But then she's an
LI, and it seems Bioware won't have LIs promote Renegade
decisions.

But Garrus is an LI too, and he was one of the renegade examples you used.
Furthermore, none of the supporters of keeping the base want TIM to have it - they want YOU to have it. (Though one wonders if they honestly expected you to analyze the thing yourself.)

MajesticJazz wrote...

Miranda can resign from Cerberus? How do you do that?

TIM: "Miranda! Don't let Shepard destroy this base!"
Miranda: "Or what ? You'll replace me next?"
TIM: "Miranda, I gave you an order!"
Miranda: "Noted. Consider this my resignation."
TIM: *Turns around to rant at Shepard a little while longer before Miranda turns off her omni-tool, interrupting him.*

[Zulu_DFA]

Optimystic_X wrote...
TIM plans to use the Collector Station "to secure humanity's dominance against the Reapers and beyond."

I can't see anything wrong about this.

I also don't see how this invalidates Legion's opinion that you should keep the C-Base. Apparently, Legion does not think that Cerberus can be worse than the Reapers.

[IanPolaris]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
TIM plans to use the Collector Station "to secure humanity's dominance against the Reapers and beyond."

I can't see anything wrong about this.

I also don't see how this invalidates Legion's opinion that you should keep the C-Base. Apparently, Legion does not think that Cerberus can be worse than the Reapers.

That's not what I gather about Legion if you talk to him after the mission and you kept the base.  Near as I can tell, the concern (and I think it's not only valid but will happen with TIM/Cerberus), in defeating the Reapers by using their own tech, humanity will become the new Reapers if not worse.  I do think that's worse than the Reapers.

-Polaris

[PsyrenY]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
TIM plans to use the Collector Station "to secure humanity's dominance against the Reapers and beyond."

I can't see anything wrong about this.

I also don't see how this invalidates Legion's opinion that you should keep the C-Base. Apparently, Legion does not think that Cerberus can be worse than the Reapers.

That wasn't an opinion though. Legion seems prone to making true statements that he himself does not necessarily agree with - or more accurately, that he has not reached consensus on.

On his loyalty mission, he mentions rewriting as a possibility, despite not having reached a consensus on it. (Tali will point this out to him, in fact:)
Tali: "Wait, how can you believe that sapient beings have the right to choose, yet advocate rewriting the heretics?"
Legion: "We did not say that we favored rewrite, only that it was a possibility."

It's the same issue here. It is true that destroying the base will not bring the dead colonists back. It is also true that the station likely contains much data. That does not mean that Legion has come to consensus on keeping it. But by the time you get back to the Normandy, he has reached consensus - and judged that the benefits to be gained by keeping the Reaper technology are not outweighed by the negatives of relying on another's path in the first place.

A similar, though less rigorous process can be applied to all the other squadmates.

[Nightwriter]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Furthermore, Legion's plan from the beginning was to counter the virus and then delete it. TIM plans to use the Collector Station "to secure humanity's dominance against the Reapers and beyond." That last bit is key. He has no intentions of relinquishing/destroying the technology even after the Reapers are dealt with; he wants to use their technology to keep the other races of the Galaxy in line, forever. And to TIM, that line starts BEHIND humanity.

I know, I found that statement incredibly ominous. And telling.

[Barquiel]

Nightwriter wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Furthermore, Legion's plan from the beginning was to counter the virus and then delete it. TIM plans to use the Collector Station "to secure humanity's dominance against the Reapers and beyond." That last bit is key. He has no intentions of relinquishing/destroying the technology even after the Reapers are dealt with; he wants to use their technology to keep the other races of the Galaxy in line, forever. And to TIM, that line starts BEHIND humanity.

I know, I found that statement incredibly ominous. And telling.

I agree. That's the reason why I always destroy the base.

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont know what happens to TIM in the final.



He went from a laidback, confident, and charismatic person who I could agree with, and tolerate.



And then in the end its all power fist thrusts, HUMAN POWER, etc.

Mainly I was going okkkk, who are you and what happened to the real TIM?



Does the sudden thought of power get to him? How did he slip up and just seem so OOC in that scene.

[smudboy]

Barquiel wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Furthermore, Legion's plan from the beginning was to counter the virus and then delete it. TIM plans to use the Collector Station "to secure humanity's dominance against the Reapers and beyond." That last bit is key. He has no intentions of relinquishing/destroying the technology even after the Reapers are dealt with; he wants to use their technology to keep the other races of the Galaxy in line, forever. And to TIM, that line starts BEHIND humanity.

I know, I found that statement incredibly ominous. And telling.

I agree. That's the reason why I always destroy the base.

Aww.  Did the poor little megalomaniac's words hurt your feelings?

(Psst: The Reapers are coming.  Pass it on.)

[Giggles_Manically]

smudboy wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Furthermore, Legion's plan from the beginning was to counter the virus and then delete it. TIM plans to use the Collector Station "to secure humanity's dominance against the Reapers and beyond." That last bit is key. He has no intentions of relinquishing/destroying the technology even after the Reapers are dealt with; he wants to use their technology to keep the other races of the Galaxy in line, forever. And to TIM, that line starts BEHIND humanity.

I know, I found that statement incredibly ominous. And telling.

I agree. That's the reason why I always destroy the base.

Aww.  Did the poor little megalomaniac's words hurt your feelings?

(Psst: The Reapers are coming.  Pass it on.)

I think it was more the evil little Megolomanias's ranting, and HUMAN POWER trip that got to them.
Or it could be just me, who thinks that TIM in that scene went off his pills.

[MadCat221]

smudboy wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Furthermore, Legion's plan from the beginning was to counter the virus and then delete it. TIM plans to use the Collector Station "to secure humanity's dominance against the Reapers and beyond." That last bit is key. He has no intentions of relinquishing/destroying the technology even after the Reapers are dealt with; he wants to use their technology to keep the other races of the Galaxy in line, forever. And to TIM, that line starts BEHIND humanity.

I know, I found that statement incredibly ominous. And telling.

I agree. That's the reason why I always destroy the base.

Aww.  Did the poor little megalomaniac's words hurt your feelings?

(Psst: The Reapers are coming.  Pass it on.)

Not so much "hurt my feelings", but give me a "Ominously chilling vibe that was only elicited by the Reapers before"

Considering the reckless, power-hungry and morally irresponsible behavior of Timmay, do you really want to give him all that bounty?

(psst: Timmay is the scorpion in the "Scorpion and Fox" fable, pass it on)

Modifié par MadCat221, 20 août 2010 - 09:47 .