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[Zulu_DFA]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
TIM plans to use the Collector Station "to secure humanity's dominance against the Reapers and beyond."

I can't see anything wrong about this.

I also don't see how this invalidates Legion's opinion that you should keep the C-Base. Apparently, Legion does not think that Cerberus can be worse than the Reapers.

That wasn't an opinion though. Legion seems prone to making true statements that he himself does not necessarily agree with - or more accurately, that he has not reached consensus on.

On his loyalty mission, he mentions rewriting as a possibility, despite not having reached a consensus on it. (Tali will point this out to him, in fact:)
Tali: "Wait, how can you believe that sapient beings have the right to choose, yet advocate rewriting the heretics?"
Legion: "We did not say that we favored rewrite, only that it was a possibility."

It's the same issue here. It is true that destroying the base will not bring the dead colonists back. It is also true that the station likely contains much data. That does not mean that Legion has come to consensus on keeping it. But by the time you get back to the Normandy, he has reached consensus - and judged that the benefits to be gained by keeping the Reaper technology are not outweighed by the negatives of relying on another's path in the first place.

A similar, though less rigorous process can be applied to all the other squadmates.

Legion does not bring up the option to keep the C-Base. TIM does. And Legion clearly speaks up in support of it. Just like Zaeed, Garrus, Mordin or Grunt. Don't dig yourself a hole with this concensus BS, just deal with it. These characters are renegade, it's in their character to advocate the renegade option. The only renegade character that is against keeping the C-Base is Jack, who has too personal a reason to distrust TIM.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 20 août 2010 - 09:50 .

[MadCat221]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
TIM plans to use the Collector Station "to secure humanity's dominance against the Reapers and beyond."

I can't see anything wrong about this.

I also don't see how this invalidates Legion's opinion that you should keep the C-Base. Apparently, Legion does not think that Cerberus can be worse than the Reapers.

That wasn't an opinion though. Legion seems prone to making true statements that he himself does not necessarily agree with - or more accurately, that he has not reached consensus on.

On his loyalty mission, he mentions rewriting as a possibility, despite not having reached a consensus on it. (Tali will point this out to him, in fact:)
Tali: "Wait, how can you believe that sapient beings have the right to choose, yet advocate rewriting the heretics?"
Legion: "We did not say that we favored rewrite, only that it was a possibility."

It's the same issue here. It is true that destroying the base will not bring the dead colonists back. It is also true that the station likely contains much data. That does not mean that Legion has come to consensus on keeping it. But by the time you get back to the Normandy, he has reached consensus - and judged that the benefits to be gained by keeping the Reaper technology are not outweighed by the negatives of relying on another's path in the first place.

A similar, though less rigorous process can be applied to all the other squadmates.

Legion does not bring up the option to keep the C-Base. TIM does. And Legion clearly speaks up in support of it. Just like Zaeed, Garrus, Mordin or Grunt. Don't dig yourself a hole with this concensus BS, just deal with it. These characters are renegade, it's in their character to advocate the renegade option. The only renegade character that is against keeping the C-Base is Jack, who has too personal a reason to distrust TIM.

Then explain why Legion says "you are more like us than we thought" afterwards?

Your considering the consensus fact as "BS" is telling of your opinion of others' opinions.  Don't dig yourself a hole.

[smudboy]

It's interesting that people choose to blow up the base due to something that happens after you save it...

[Nightwriter]

MadCat221 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Furthermore, Legion's plan from the beginning was to counter the virus and then delete it. TIM plans to use the Collector Station "to secure humanity's dominance against the Reapers and beyond." That last bit is key. He has no intentions of relinquishing/destroying the technology even after the Reapers are dealt with; he wants to use their technology to keep the other races of the Galaxy in line, forever. And to TIM, that line starts BEHIND humanity.

I know, I found that statement incredibly ominous. And telling.

I agree. That's the reason why I always destroy the base.

Aww.  Did the poor little megalomaniac's words hurt your feelings?

(Psst: The Reapers are coming.  Pass it on.)

Not so much "hurt my feelings", but give me a "Ominously chilling vibe that was only elicited by the Reapers before"

Considering the reckless, power-hungry and morally irresponsible behavior of Timmay, do you really want to give him all that bounty?

(psst: Timmay is the scorpion in the "Scorpion and Fox" fable, pass it on)

What an excellent analogy.

[Giggles_Manically]

I didnt want to destory it, I was going to give it to TIM.
Then he went off on his spiel and left me going ??????.

Sorry but the chills that I felt after hearing him go on, were ones of dread not anticipation.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 20 août 2010 - 09:56 .

[Barquiel]

smudboy wrote...
Aww.  Did the poor little megalomaniac's words hurt your feelings?

(Psst: The Reapers are coming.  Pass it on.)

no way:wizard:

I would give the base to the council (in Shepards shoes)...BW doesn't give me that option
= I can't roleplay here

metagame
I know Shep will find a way to destroy the reapers, collector base or not.
I hate cerberus.
BOOM!

[Giggles_Manically]

This is sci-fi so if you dont keep the base then:

Slap some phleutobium on some ancient device in the last minute and viola!

Insta Reaper annhilation.



Its not like Stargate didnt do this 200 times... oh wait.

[Zulu_DFA]

smudboy wrote...

It's interesting that people choose to blow up the base due to something that happens after you save it...

It's also interesting how people try to adjust the facts (which they have zero control over) to their opinion, instead of adjusting their opinion to the facts. Practically wherever you go.

[Giggles_Manically]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

smudboy wrote...

It's interesting that people choose to blow up the base due to something that happens after you save it...

It's also interesting how people try to adjust the facts (which they have zero control over) to their opinion, instead of adjusting their opinion to the facts. Practically wherever you go.

I take it you watched Sherlock Holmes.

[smudboy]

We all know how dangerous one persons' smile is, and their use of...sentences.

Especially in comparison to billion year old AI flying dreadnaught gods that destroy all life, forever.

Modifié par smudboy, 20 août 2010 - 10:06 .

[MadCat221]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

smudboy wrote...

It's interesting that people choose to blow up the base due to something that happens after you save it...

It's also interesting how people try to adjust the facts (which they have zero control over) to their opinion, instead of adjusting their opinion to the facts. Practically wherever you go.

Guess what?  We know what happens after blowing up the base because we already played it through once.  Surprise, we know what happens!

Also... Some people also omit facts to fit their opinion.  Like Smudboy did with people playing with knowledge from prior playthroughs and you with omitting Legion's consensus after the mission is done.

Modifié par MadCat221, 20 août 2010 - 10:07 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Barquiel wrote...

smudboy wrote...
Aww.  Did the poor little megalomaniac's words hurt your feelings?

(Psst: The Reapers are coming.  Pass it on.)

no way:wizard:

I would give the base to the council (in Shepards shoes)...BW doesn't give me that option
= I can't roleplay here

metagame
I know Shep will find a way to destroy the reapers, collector base or not.
I hate cerberus.
BOOM!

I like it when paragons are flat out honest about their motives. I really do.

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It's also interesting how people try to adjust the facts (which they have zero control over) to their opinion, instead of adjusting their opinion to the facts. Practically wherever you go.

Can I have Things That Every Debater In the World Does for 300, Alex?

[Zulu_DFA]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

smudboy wrote...

It's interesting that people choose to blow up the base due to something that happens after you save it...

It's also interesting how people try to adjust the facts (which they have zero control over) to their opinion, instead of adjusting their opinion to the facts. Practically wherever you go.

I take it you watched Sherlock Holmes.

You mean Guy Ritchie's? Sadly, I haven't.

[Whatever42]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

This is sci-fi so if you dont keep the base then:
Slap some phleutobium on some ancient device in the last minute and viola!
Insta Reaper annhilation.

Its not like Stargate didnt do this 200 times... oh wait.

I'm certain the destruction of the reapers will have nothing to do specifically with the base. Personally, I think it has to do with the indoctrination field. Just because TIM insists that you have to hand him immense evil destructive power to save the galaxy doesn't make me believe it.

But I chose to keep the base because I want to make a giant gerbil reaper. Right now Shepard is harvesting the galaxy for billions of little gerbils. I'm not sure what the core intelligence of a billion gerbils will be like but I am sure it will be truly awesome.

[Giggles_Manically]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

smudboy wrote...

It's interesting that people choose to blow up the base due to something that happens after you save it...

It's also interesting how people try to adjust the facts (which they have zero control over) to their opinion, instead of adjusting their opinion to the facts. Practically wherever you go.

I take it you watched Sherlock Holmes.

You mean Guy Ritchie's? Sadly, I haven't.

Its different thats for sure.

[Asheer_Khan]

smudboy wrote...

We all know how dangerous one persons' smile is, and their use of...sentences.

Especially in comparison to billion year old AI flying dreadnaught gods that destroy all life, forever.

"AH YES... Reapers will destroy entire life in the galaxy"... even Harbinger dismiss that clam .

[Eber]

smudboy wrote...

We all know how dangerous one persons' smile is, and their use of...sentences.

Especially in comparison to billion year old AI flying dreadnaught gods that destroy all life, forever.

We all know appearance stereotypes hold true in Bioware games. If it looks bad it is. If it looks treacherous it is etc. One need not look further than your icon to know this. Disclaimer: I have not yet finished Dragon Age.

Either way basing the decision on his smile and his eyes is at the very least more legitimate than basing it on the new Mass Effect book!

Modifié par Eber, 20 août 2010 - 11:29 .

[Isaidlunch]

smudboy wrote...
Aww.  Did the poor little megalomaniac's words hurt your feelings?

(Psst: The Reapers are coming.  Pass it on.)

Strange, I don't see what feelings have to do with anything they said. It is obvious TIM has intentions of making humans the superior race and he doesn't hide the fact that he aims to achieve this with the Reaper technology. He has proven that he can not be trusted and that he will do whatever it takes to ensure human dominance.

It is a dangerous gamble handing the base over to the TIM, not an obvious choice like you make it out to be.

(Psst: You can make a point without insulting other people.)

[Count Viceroy]

Kazanth wrote...

(Psst: You can make a point without insulting other people.)

What? This is the internet, that's not how it works.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
So I did the final fight with Miranda and if you chose to blow the base - she resigns from Cerberus.
Before I did this I thought the arguments *for* Cerberus were pretty tenuous at best.. but I am really struggling to see why anyone would support TIM at all (post ME2)... pretty much the entire crew think you should blow it.
[/quote]
Pretty much half the crew advises you to keep it. Namely: Legion, Mordin, Zaeed, Grunt and Garrus.
[/quote]
ok, they advise and then there's their afterthought on the normandy afterwards

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
I know this topic is a very flogged horse,
[/quote]
So why bring it up again, just because of some goof by a silly overconfident b*tch who is in the business only for her daddy issues? [/quote]
Yep, I knew that could be an issue.. but Zulu, you know me.. I couldn't back Cerberus if my mothers life depended on it.. and that was BEFORE I found our Miranda was saying 'adios' aswell.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
but I'm having a hard time really accepting there's any situation than an EVIL one where you're gonna side with TIM... and I mean EVIL and not renegade...
Are TIM supporters just being contrarians and oppositionists... or are there some decent arguments pro cerberus that haven't been discussed yet?
[/quote]
Duty calls. And since Shepard's superiors (Anderson, Udina and Hackett) are apparently OK with that, he'll do his part in the Cerberus' ranks.[/quote]
[/quote]
I'm of the view that since Miri was such a stable-mate at Cerberus, that TIM is now in the position where consensus within his own "upper management" and/or rank and file is an imminent issue. In light of that situation... to blow the base seems like: "i just don't care, I want that base no matter what anyone thinks". I mean these people like Miranda  have been on board Cerberus for a looong time... it's not as though they don't know alot about what Cerberus has done or how they do things...

(Zulu, no walls of text pls - if possible -)

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 21 août 2010 - 12:25 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
It's also interesting how people try to adjust the facts (which they have zero control over) to their opinion, instead of adjusting their opinion to the facts. Practically wherever you go.

Can I have Things That Every Debater In the World Does for 300, Alex?

Nighwriter... explain this!
I am intrigued and confused

[Notho]

Mesina2 wrote...

Did anyone tried to with Miranda and Jacob final boss fight?

I tried it with Jacob and Miranda once but i believe only Miranda has anything to say to TIM.

[FourSixEight]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

smudboy wrote...

It's interesting that people choose to blow up the base due to something that happens after you save it...

It's also interesting how people try to adjust the facts (which they have zero control over) to their opinion, instead of adjusting their opinion to the facts. Practically wherever you go.

Translation: "Saving the base is the only  logical  decision, bro. If you say otherwise you're just metagaming and twisting things like a dirty, dirty fact-twister. My opinion is right."

Modifié par FourSixEight, 21 août 2010 - 01:31 .

[Zulu_DFA]

FourSixEight wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

smudboy wrote...

It's interesting that people choose to blow up the base due to something that happens after you save it...

It's also interesting how people try to adjust the facts (which they have zero control over) to their opinion, instead of adjusting their opinion to the facts. Practically wherever you go.

Translation: "Saving the base is the only  logical  decision, bro. If you say otherwise you're just metagaming and twisting things like a dirty, dirty fact-twister. My opinion is right."

And that's sort of hinted on by BioWare themselves, by making the Scientist and the Robot to advocate this option.