143 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
It's also interesting how people try to adjust the facts (which they have zero control over) to their opinion, instead of adjusting their opinion to the facts. Practically wherever you go.

Can I have Things That Every Debater In the World Does for 300, Alex?

Nighwriter... explain this!
I am intrigued and confused

Well first you need to have watched Final Jeopardy.

Beyond that I was merely saying that everyone in the entire world adjusts the facts to their opinion.

Like you'll hear Cerberus supporters say Cerberus does what's best for humanity, but when they sacrifice human lives with absolutely no apparent gain whatsoever, Cerberus supporters will choose to disregard this because it doesn't suit their opinion.

[Throw_this_away]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

So I did the final fight with Miranda and if you chose to blow the base - she resigns from Cerberus.

Before I did this I thought the arguments *for* Cerberus were pretty tenuous at best.. but I am really struggling to see why anyone would support TIM at all (post ME2)... pretty much the entire crew think you should blow it.

I know this topic is a very flogged horse, but I'm having a hard time really accepting there's any situation than an EVIL one where you're gonna side with TIM... and I mean EVIL and not renegade...

Are TIM supporters just being contrarians and oppositionists... or are there some decent arguments pro cerberus that haven't been discussed yet?

I think a HUGE plot twist in ME3 will occur when you realize that since the defeat of Sovergn at the citadel in ME1, the alliance has been rebuilding the ship and studying the reaper tech.  It was referenced in ME2 that the ship scraps "dissapeared".  

Ironic that after that Shep was sent into the corners of the galaxy for make-work projects chasing geth.  I think the council wanted Shep out of their hair as they seceretly did their unethical research on reaper tech. 

In ME2 they set TIM up as a pretty questionable individual.  Few can agree with the ethics of his methods.  As a result, most of these people will go running back to the arms of the council in ME3.  

They are in for an ethical surprise.  TIM may not look so bad in the end.  

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Like you'll hear Cerberus supporters say Cerberus does what's best for humanity, but when they sacrifice human lives with absolutely no apparent gain whatsoever, Cerberus supporters will choose to disregard this because it doesn't suit their opinion.

No, we just not get emotional about the misfortune of the sacrificed, and argue that the net gain must be present somewhere, or do you mean Cerberus does it all for the lulz? And the "wealthy contributors" make their hefty contributions to Cerberus' budget for the lulz? That's way too cartoonish to be true even in the now-cartoonish ME universe.

We do not disregard these facts, we interpret them as, well, you said it yourself... It's what best for humanity. To sacrifice a few to gain a lot.

[Solaris Paradox]

Did Miranda "resign," or just agree with your decision to blow the base?

[Zulu_DFA]

Throw_this_away wrote...

Ironic that after that Shep was sent into the corners of the galaxy for make-work projects chasing geth.  I think the council wanted Shep out of their hair as they seceretly did their unethical research on reaper tech. 

In ME2 they set TIM up as a pretty questionable individual.  Few can agree with the ethics of his methods.  As a result, most of these people will go running back to the arms of the council in ME3.  

They are in for an ethical surprise.  TIM may not look so bad in the end.  

Lol, and the only way to stop the real mad, will be to help TIM bust them!

[Solaris Paradox]

Throw_this_away wrote...

It was referenced in ME2 that the ship scraps "dissapeared".

This was mentioned and then attributed to a number of factors, part of it being the Keepers and part of it being the unauthorized salvage. If I recall, EDI was created using a bit of said salvage.

As a result, most of these people will go running back to the arms of the council in ME3.

Heck, I made nice with the council the moment I had free reign on the Galaxy Map.

They are in for an ethical surprise.  TIM may not look so bad in the end. 

The Mass Effect series has a running theme where the player is given the choice to work to further inter-species cooperation or to emphasize humanity's ascension in the galaxy--giving Cerberus the Collector Base will probably be an integral part of ending the series with secure human dominance in the galaxy--against the Reapers and beyond, you know. Given the number of combinations between the choices you can make in ME1, ME2, and probably in ME3, I expect a lot of possible outcomes from preserving the Collector Base, some of which may seem more or less morally correct than others.

In my case, my character was a strong co-existance supporter, so she was strongly inclined to make nice with the Citadel Council and to cut ties with Cerberus at the first opportunity. It's obvious that the diplomacy-versus-domination divide that defines the Paragon/Renegade system is intended to underline and be underlined by the choice between human domination in the galaxy and human coexistence with the galaxy, and that the Citadel Council and Cerberus are meant to embody those two extremes.

...I won't be in the least bit surprised if in ME3, one playthrough spends all of its mission briefings with the Illusive Man, another with the Alliance, and another speaking directly to the Citadel Council.

[MajesticJazz]

IanPolaris wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Miranda can resign from Cerberus? How do you do that?

Take her with you on the very final mission and destroy the base.  Miranda will resign from Cerberus.

-Polaris

Okay, because on one playthrough I took Miranda with me but I instead gave the base to the Illusive Man.

[PsyrenY]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Legion does not bring up the option to keep the C-Base. TIM does. And Legion clearly speaks up in support of it. Just like Zaeed, Garrus, Mordin or Grunt. Don't dig yourself a hole with this concensus BS, just deal with it. These characters are renegade, it's in their character to advocate the renegade option. The only renegade character that is against keeping the C-Base is Jack, who has too personal a reason to distrust TIM.

I'm not digging a hole. Legion NEVER says "keep the base." He says "destroying it won't bring back the dead." You are the one that is reading support into that statement, not me - and not him, either.

In other words, that statement could just as easily mean "if you are blowing it up, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons" - which is a far cry from "OMG KEEP IT!"

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 21 août 2010 - 08:41 .

[McBeath]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Legion does not bring up the option to keep the C-Base. TIM does. And Legion clearly speaks up in support of it. Just like Zaeed, Garrus, Mordin or Grunt. Don't dig yourself a hole with this concensus BS, just deal with it. These characters are renegade, it's in their character to advocate the renegade option. The only renegade character that is against keeping the C-Base is Jack, who has too personal a reason to distrust TIM.

I'm not digging a hole. Legion NEVER says "keep the base." He says "destroying it won't bring back the dead." You are the one that is reading support into that statement, not me - and not him, either.

In other words, that statement could just as easily mean "if you are blowing it up, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons" - which is a far cry from "OMG KEEP IT!"

Agreed.  They take more of a middle road in regards to the base.  I think they see the implications that Cerberus wants the base for themselves, not for humanity.  TIM didn't suggest that you turn the base over to the Alliance or the Citidel for study, but to them.  I think that your(Zulu) interpreting that statement the way you want to instead of seeing it as being more neutral.

[Shadow_broker]

Really want to know what happens with miri's dad and sister in ME3 without protection, this is the thing im most worried about getting glazed over

I'm guessing if miranda survives the suicide mission that she'll quit cerebrus at the begining in ME3 anyways

[Shadow_broker]

Legion approves of destroying the base, Talk to him post suicide mission it's obvious

[McBeath]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Really want to know what happens with miri's dad and sister in ME3 without protection, this is the thing im most worried about getting glazed over
I'm guessing if miranda survives the suicide mission that she'll quit cerebrus at the begining in ME3 anyways

Yeah, I think her quiting Cerberus was forshadowing what's to come in ME3.  I don't think that they just did it for no reason(as some people complain that it was a little out of character).  It may be that this win ensure she has a reason to work with Shepard regardless of what he does.  It wouldn't make sense for her to still be a squadmate or ally on the Normandy if Shepard tells off TIM, unless she cuts those ties as well.

[Exile Isan]

If you take Miranda with you in certain places (Collector Ship) and if you do her loyalty mission it's not so surprising that she quits Cereberus.

[Shadow_broker]

Exile Isan wrote...

If you take Miranda with you in certain places (Collector Ship) and if you do her loyalty mission it's not so surprising that she quits Cereberus.

what's she ssay on collector ship?

And yea each time you talk to her she starts growing more independent from cerebrus and trusting shepard after you save her sis she hardly mentions cerebrus

[FourSixEight]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FourSixEight wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

smudboy wrote...

It's interesting that people choose to blow up the base due to something that happens after you save it...

It's also interesting how people try to adjust the facts (which they have zero control over) to their opinion, instead of adjusting their opinion to the facts. Practically wherever you go.

Translation: "Saving the base is the only  logical  decision, bro. If you say otherwise you're just metagaming and twisting things like a dirty, dirty fact-twister. My opinion is right."

And that's sort of hinted on by BioWare themselves, by making the Scientist and the Robot to advocate this option.

Yes, because people in BioWare games cannot, in-story, make mistakes and regret them later.

("Our project wasn't supposed to go like this! Everything seemed fine when we were strapping in tubes and wires! It all seemed harmless! Harmless, really!")

Which the Scientist and the Robot did, as they told you, explicitly, that they approved of your decision even after saying the aforementioned things on the suicide mission.

Nightwriter wrote...

Like you'll hear Cerberus supporters say Cerberus does what's best for humanity, but when they sacrifice human lives with absolutely no apparent gain whatsoever, Cerberus supporters will choose to disregard this because it doesn't suit their opinion.

Nightwriter makes an extremely good point.

Modifié par FourSixEight, 21 août 2010 - 10:25 .

[Exile Isan]

Shadow_broker wrote...
what's she ssay on collector ship?

When EDI tells you that TIM just set you up on the Collector Ship Miranda says "No he wouldn't do that to us, he just wouldn't" or something to that effect, but you can hear the doubt in her voice. Disillusionment. Cerberus and TIM aren't as bright and shiny as they used to be. I think she's been struggling the whole game between her loyalty to Cereberus and her growing loyalty to Shepard. That moment on the Collector Base she had to finally make a decision: Shepard or Cerebrus. Shepard won out in the end.

Of course all this hinges on whether you've been nice to Miranda and whether she's still loyal to you or not.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 21 août 2010 - 10:42 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Like you'll hear Cerberus supporters say Cerberus does what's best for humanity, but when they sacrifice human lives with absolutely no apparent gain whatsoever, Cerberus supporters will choose to disregard this because it doesn't suit their opinion.

No, we just not get emotional about the misfortune of the sacrificed, and argue that the net gain must be present somewhere, or do you mean Cerberus does it all for the lulz? And the "wealthy contributors" make their hefty contributions to Cerberus' budget for the lulz? That's way too cartoonish to be true even in the now-cartoonish ME universe.
We do not disregard these facts, we interpret them as, well, you said it yourself... It's what best for humanity. To sacrifice a few to gain a lot.

someone who makes a habit of "sacrificing a few to save alot" is not someone who is qualified to make that decision rationally - they just tell themselves that's why they're doing it ... every single time they do it.

In the case of Cerberus - that's all they ever do. After a while you begin to think: "hmmm, they always say that's what's required to move forward..." but it's hard to be convinced if that's what they ALWAYS say, so you begin to think: "maybe it's just talk to cover their ****house real motives."

Indeed, the onus of proof is on Cerberus to show alternative situations where they are able to be judicious. They need to show that they have sufficient purview and discipline and jurisprudence to not only make the "hard decisions" but to show what happens when the "terms of engagement" are not so critical.

Indeed, they can't. What Cerberus show is that when the decisions are simple - they actually make bad calls and screw **** up - all the time. You can't trust an organisation like that to make big decisions... because they screw up the little ones...

simple.

Nightwriter wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
It's
also interesting how people try to adjust the facts (which they have
zero control over) to their opinion, instead of adjusting their opinion
to the facts. Practically wherever you go.

Can I have Things That Every Debater In the World Does for 300, Alex?

Nighwriter... explain this!
I am intrigued and confused

Well first you need to have watched Final Jeopardy.

Beyond that I was merely saying that everyone in the entire world adjusts the facts to their opinion.

Like
you'll hear Cerberus supporters say Cerberus does what's best for
humanity, but when they sacrifice human lives with absolutely no
apparent gain whatsoever, Cerberus supporters will choose to disregard
this because it doesn't suit their opinion.

ah ok

Solaris Paradox wrote...

Did Miranda "resign," or just agree with your decision to blow the base?

resign

[Arijharn]

FourSixEight wrote...

Translation: "Saving the base is the only  logical  decision, bro. If you say otherwise you're just metagaming and twisting things like a dirty, dirty fact-twister. My opinion is right."

But, despite being what snide?, that argument is correct really. I doubt anyone in that position in reality would elect to let go of perhaps one advantage against a seemingly unstoppable threat... for moral quandries?

I'll tell you what, you can lynch me after I save the galaxy...

[thetruefreemo]

Miranda never really wanted to be in Cerberus. If you listen to one of her early conversations she says that she likes to know where she fits in and she fits in with Shepard.

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Like you'll hear Cerberus supporters say Cerberus does what's best for humanity, but when they sacrifice human lives with absolutely no apparent gain whatsoever, Cerberus supporters will choose to disregard this because it doesn't suit their opinion.

No, we just not get emotional about the misfortune of the sacrificed, and argue that the net gain must be present somewhere, or do you mean Cerberus does it all for the lulz? And the "wealthy contributors" make their hefty contributions to Cerberus' budget for the lulz? That's way too cartoonish to be true even in the now-cartoonish ME universe.

We do not disregard these facts, we interpret them as, well, you said it yourself... It's what best for humanity. To sacrifice a few to gain a lot.

They sacrifice more than they contribute. Any project that doesn't have to do directly with Shepard goes horribly wrong.

But again, you choose to disregard this.

[Elyvern]

Exile Isan wrote...

Of course all this hinges on whether you've been nice to Miranda and whether she's still loyal to you or not.

Actually, regardless of if she's loyal to you or if she's your LI, as long as you bring her to to the collector's base AND decide to blow it up, she will quit cerberus. It's likely that Shepard plays a role in her decision, but it's also an outcome she makes independently herself.

[Zulu_DFA]

McBeath wrote...

I think that your(Zulu) interpreting that statement the way you want to instead of seeing it as being more neutral.

I thinl it's pretty simple: A bunch of people support destroying the Base, like Miranda, Jacob, Jack, Samara/Morinth (Morinth, lol, is careful to play her mother straight!), and Tali. So they would say something against TIM's PoV. Mordin, Legion. Zaeed, Grunt and Garrus support keeping the Base and say something in support of TIM's PoV. They don't say they love TIM. They say TIM's right on this particular subject. I'd even say the ME2 trumps ME1 here (and that's a really rare statement you can hear from me), because the characters don't suffer from dual personality syndrome depending on who the other companion is.

In short, I think it's you paragon folks trying to interpret an openly renegade statement "keep the base" as a neutral, because it hurts you to hear a squadmate not sucking up to you for once.

[Arijharn]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Indeed, the onus of proof is on Cerberus to show alternative situations where they are able to be judicious. They need to show that they have sufficient purview and discipline and jurisprudence to not only make the "hard decisions" but to show what happens when the "terms of engagement" are not so critical.

Onus of proof is on Cerberus? Isn't that counterintuitive if they're supposed to be a shadow organisation? Do you expect them to publish their results in medical/scientific journals?

January 2185
Today, Cerberus is proud to announce the successful completion of a new Normandy class frigate. This new frigate comes with advanced weapon systems (all of which remain classified) and is also a sophisticate electronic warfare platform. Tests indicate that it is capable of engaging and defeating enemy VI agents and organic species on enemy vessels and can cause its destruction without engaging any weapons batteries.

March 2185
Cerberus is pleased to announce that it has successfully raised someone back from the dead! Commander Shephard, the savior of the Citadel was killed in action two years ago whilst responding to a series of alliance losses in the Terminus Systems when his ship came under attack by an unknown assailant. Despite saving a large portion of his crew, Commander Shephard him/herself was lost too enemy action. The Alliance officially declared him as KIA but to Cerberus, this wasn't enough.
Creating brand new technology or purchasing it, for those two years expert Cerberus scientists toiled and endeavoured to accomplish something that was previously solely within the power of the divine - to resurrect a person, this time it's the the galaxy's hero.
"Commander Shephard is a champion, " The Illusive Man elaborated during a recent press conference "not just to the Alliance but to Humanity as a whole. Proof of what humanity can accomplish. Cerberus can also prove what humanity can do for the galactic community as well. Bringing back someone from the dead is an event that should leave people in awe as it certainly does for me."
Cerberus plans to begin production of medical equipment based off the performance of the devices used to reanimate Shephard to help principally war veterans and other disabled people. Expectations and demands for these new miraculous devices are high, and Cerberus is expecting a record period of growth.

Cerberus Memo 2185 - Distributed to human colonists near the border of the Terminus Systems
People can rest easier with the knowledge that Cerberus, named for Hades Dog, is ever alert and ever present prowling the Terminus Systems outside the limitations imposed by the Alliance and doing everything it can to protect the sadly fewer human colony's survive attacks.
Despite not being a force that can engage the hostiles, Cerberus activities have already halted some mass abductions from happening and have blunted others.
The Illusive Man, the rumoured head of all Cerberus activities has had this to say about their activities in halting the activities: "It's my regret that we haven't been able to do more. With the Alliance unable to act, the burden lies upon our shoulders, and while we at Cerberus are thankful for the responsibility that lies upon our shoulders, it will of course be difficult. Already, we have sent humanitarian aid to survivors of other attacks, and will continue to do so until we have stopped this threat on our colony's."

To be frank, I've ignored the other things you've said because that horse has been so well and truly whipped I think it has no skin left and you are implied to be wrong anyway, here's the clincher really (and only the few that I can think of off the top of my head):
- Cerberus does not become an 'avowed enemy of the council' by stuffing everything up.
- Cerberus does not successfully bring someone back from the dead by stuffing everything up.
- Cerberus did not fail in creating super biotics if they created Jack. They did. I don't think 'pain breaking down barriers' is an intelligent choice (I would of thought eugenic programs or positive reinforcement coupled with implied punishment would probably of been better motivators...) . They stuff it up? Bits of it absolutely, but their goal was achieved regardless.
- Cerberus created a stable AI platform, you don't do this by 'stuffing everything up'
- Cerberus helped influence the Alliance's Ascension program... it therefore probably stands to reason that Cerberus also helps manufacture or even design successive Lx implants for the Alliance's Adepts/Vanguards/Sentinels.

This debate is so old now. I don't think just one dead horse has been whipped now in its name, but perhaps an entire herd.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Arijharn wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Indeed, the onus of proof is on Cerberus to show alternative situations where they are able to be judicious. They need to show that they have sufficient purview and discipline and jurisprudence to not only make the "hard decisions" but to show what happens when the "terms of engagement" are not so critical.

Onus of proof is on Cerberus? Isn't that counterintuitive if they're supposed to be a shadow organisation? Do you expect them to publish their results in medical/scientific journals?
... ... ... ...
This debate is so old now. I don't think just one dead horse has been whipped now in its name, but perhaps an entire herd.

Indeed, they are a shadow organisation.. so why do we want TIM in the lead position for the fight against the Reapers?
And unfortunately, one missing key element with Cerberus is that they are not attached to a "legitimate government" for oversight.
No oversight = fail incoming.

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 22 août 2010 - 03:01 .

[Arijharn]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Indeed, the onus of proof is on Cerberus to show alternative situations where they are able to be judicious. They need to show that they have sufficient purview and discipline and jurisprudence to not only make the "hard decisions" but to show what happens when the "terms of engagement" are not so critical.

Onus of proof is on Cerberus? Isn't that counterintuitive if they're supposed to be a shadow organisation? Do you expect them to publish their results in medical/scientific journals?
... ... ... ...
This debate is so old now. I don't think just one dead horse has been whipped now in its name, but perhaps an entire herd.

Indeed, they are a shadow organisation.. so why do we want TIM in the lead position for the fight against the Reapers?

a) Because no one else is willing to step up.
Sometimes hard decisions might be needed to be made (i.e., letting a world die to bolster defenses elsewhere -- this isn't 'renegade,' this is cold hard facts in a war; people will die... it's up to you to mitigate that.)
c) He has no political responsibilities to an electorate to further complicate b.
d) He isn't 'in lead' as that's Shephard's role. He can help to make things easier/harder for Shep however.