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[Giggles_Manically]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Did the sudden thought of power excite him, was this bad writing, Bioware forshadowing, or just TIM being TIM again?

TIM has a lot of temper, but keeps it suppressed for the most part by nicotine. If you defy his demand to keep the base, he lets it out. If you obey his orders, there is no reason to, so he keeps calm.

I meant more precisely when you are on the base, and talking about keeping or blowing it.
He really seems to be different in that scene.

His mask is either slipping, or Bioware once again made charachters OOC.

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Then I apologize for that. Still, I have to label you as hater, just because you fall into the same category with the rest who disagree with TIM's methods, motives personality, or whatever and enough of them admit that they "hate Cerberus".

Oh. Oh, I see how it is. Right. "Your crowd, my crowd". You can't be seen with the likes of me. Well go on, draw your lines in the sand. You have to call me a hater in front of your friends, I get it. Well I hope you're happy.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

You forgot about the Kittens. That success was the hugest.
Seriously, I'm not going to repeat for the millionth time that Cerberus definitely has a lot more successes, but they are not known about or are not attributed to Cerberus... Oh, wait, I am repeating it...

I'd like to see more of Cerberus's successes. Ones that don't directly relate to Shepard. I think they should show them. It's a little too easy to hate Cerberus.

Or they need to show us how the sacrifices were worth it. Like you learn that 50 people died to get the technology that brought Shepard back to life.

Also what Cerberus turned those kitties into is unspeakable.

[Giggles_Manically]

The Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence, in other words then?

For all the pro cerberus people?

[BloodRaith]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Did the sudden thought of power excite him, was this bad writing, Bioware forshadowing, or just TIM being TIM again?

TIM has a lot of temper, but keeps it suppressed for the most part by nicotine. If you defy his demand to keep the base, he lets it out. If you obey his orders, there is no reason to, so he keeps calm.

I meant more precisely when you are on the base, and talking about keeping or blowing it.
He really seems to be different in that scene.

His mask is either slipping, or Bioware once again made charachters OOC.

He ran out of cigarettes. Shepard and Miranda weren't available to run to the space 7-11 to pick him up a pack, he was cranky.

[mosor]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence, in other words then?
For all the pro cerberus people?

It's more than that. Logically, they are an extrememely well funded for a small organization, and plenty of people fund them privately with their own money. People give money to support sucessful enterprises not failures. Furthermore they are feared. People don't fear inept organizations. Finally, they rebuilt normandy, built EDI, and ressurected you. That's evidence of sucesss to me.

[Lewie]

I don't get being pro-cerberus the 'any means to an end' doesn't sit right with me. All for humanity and then (an e.g) finding Admiral Kohuko dead in their base. On the same note that may have had nothing to do with TIM a lot of the time i thought it could be that the people he hired did a lot he didn't know about. They may be rich and powerful but they would shoot you in the back in a second. TIM did bring you back granted, but in ME1 it was said that cerberus were trying to create a super-soldier and your it maybe but at what cost.

[Lewie]

Miranda resigning suprised me i was glad though. Then i thought she could in ME3 turn out to be a mole lol, her loyalty to cerberus was very apparent from the beginning.

[McBeath]

mosor wrote...

Destroying the base guarantees you wont find anythng useful. Keeping the base allows a chance that this may be the case. It's a pretty good chance this is the case since they were building a reaper. I'm sure if you captured an automobile factory, you'd learn a lot about automobiles without even building one.

Perhaps, but if a scientist from 1910 captured an IBM factory they wouldn't be building or understanding how to make a computer any time soon.  The tech is way beyond thier understanding.  A car I already understand, so could make logical guesses as to how it's created, but a giant mechanical space robot controlled by the "essence" of billions of once organic beings? 

The Normandy just used an IFF (identify friend foe} beacon to get past the defenses. Since there is no one manning the defenses, there is no need for that IFF. Anyone can get through that relay now.

I understand, but TIM clearly states that "the relay must react differently to collector vessels", not that the collectors themselves are actively defending the base.  With the IFF installed on the Normandy it seems unlikely that any ship without the IFF can travel there through the relay.  Unless it's implied that we share the device/tech I don't see how they could even access the base.  Perhaps just an oversight on Biowares part.

It just seems to me that it won't have a big impact in the actual game of ME3, perhaps the end game but nothing else.  It's just a paragon/renegade thing.

On topic, I don't see Miranda being a Cerberus mole anymore.  If you get her to resign I think you've got her to see the world differently, all she was used to was people like TIM.  Shepard shows her a different path, at least in that instance.  I think they're setting the stage for her to be included in ME3 regardless of how our Shepard handles the base.

[Count Viceroy]

McBeath wrote...

I understand, but TIM clearly states that "the relay must react differently to collector vessels", not that the collectors themselves are actively defending the base.  With the IFF installed on the Normandy it seems unlikely that any ship without the IFF can travel there through the relay.  Unless it's implied that we share the device/tech I don't see how they could even access the base.  Perhaps just an oversight on Biowares part.

.

Tim was only guessing at that point. Also 3 cerberus ships can be seen closing in on the station if you keep it, so obviously they can get through it.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 22 août 2010 - 03:43 .

[Ieldra]

louise101 wrote...
I don't get being pro-cerberus the 'any means to an end' doesn't sit right with me. All for humanity and then (an e.g) finding Admiral Kohuko dead in their base. On the same note that may have had nothing to do with TIM a lot of the time i thought it could be that the people he hired did a lot he didn't know about. They may be rich and powerful but they would shoot you in the back in a second. TIM did bring you back granted, but in ME1 it was said that cerberus were trying to create a super-soldier and your it maybe but at what cost.

It's a different stress on morality on the most basic level. In our culture, we tend to favor individual-based morality, but that isn't the case everywhere, and it hasn't always been the case in history. Cerberus is the kind of organization that uses a "It's right to sacrifice individuals for the sake of the species (even if they're unwilling)" kind of ethics. A similar kind of thinking exists in many culturally conservative ideologies, where the freedom of individuals is restricted and in some cases even their lives threatened, even if it's thoroughly unjust on the individual level, in order to keep society stable and its institutions unchanged. Cerberus is revolutionary, but it uses the same kind of group-based ethics. In times where the survival of the group is threatened, it usually becomes more prevalent, and ME shows us such times. This is why you can, if you want, justify Cerberus' actions. Cerberus is extreme, but the kind of thinking that justifies its actions is a built-in option in the human mind.

[mosor]

McBeath wrote...


Perhaps, but if a scientist from 1910 captured an IBM factory they wouldn't be building or understanding how to make a computer any time soon.  The tech is way beyond thier understanding.  A car I already understand, so could make logical guesses as to how it's created, but a giant mechanical space robot controlled by the "essence" of billions of once organic beings? 

You don't need to build an entire computer to progress. You can make great strides in just understanding the wiring, the circuitry, alternating current power, batteries, materials used, all kinds of good things that apply to many things in every day life.

I understand, but TIM clearly states that "the relay must react differently to collector vessels", not that the collectors themselves are actively defending the base.  With the IFF installed on the Normandy it seems unlikely that any ship without the IFF can travel there through the relay.  Unless it's implied that we share the device/tech I don't see how they could even access the base.  Perhaps just an oversight on Biowares part.

What TIM says is just a hypothesis. He hasn't been through the relay to say anything for certainity. All we know is that it's an indentify friend foe becon that makes collectors at the base think we're friend. Besides, if you die at the suicide mission and save the base, you see scores of cerberus ships make their way to the base. So my hypthosis is likely correct.

It just seems to me that it won't have a big impact in the actual game of ME3, perhaps the end game but nothing else.  It's just a paragon/renegade thing.

Probably not, but who knows. Maybe they'll have 2 stories. One where TIM will continue to gives you missions if you save the base, and one where the council/alliance gives you the same missions if you destroyed it. Just speculation, but whatever you do with the base isn't going to stop the reapers from being defeated. Most of the talk between destroying or saving the base is done from an RP perspective if you were in that situation.

On topic, I don't see Miranda being a Cerberus mole anymore.  If you get her to resign I think you've got her to see the world differently, all she was used to was people like TIM.  Shepard shows her a different path, at least in that instance.  I think they're setting the stage for her to be included in ME3 regardless of how our Shepard handles the base.

I agree. Whatever you do, Miranda becomes one of the most, if not most loyal squadmate you have.

[TekFanX]

In my oppinion Cerberus is totally wrong(Just read the second book, started the first and ordered the third, so you know where I stand).
Reviving Shepard and rebuilding the Normandy were the only good choices they made.

In my oppinion Cerberus is not really sticking up to it's target to protect humanity, in both senses.
Neither are they sticking to the morality that stands behind the word humanity and with cybernetics and genetic alteration they also stretch the species-based meaning of humanity, extremists would accept.

In my oppinion Cerberus is a terroristic group with the target, to put certain humans atop all other beings.

Their fundings are huge, no argue about that.
But their methods?
Shepard is a whole new book, because, despite the ethical implications of science on a corpse(which in my oppinion isn't that extreme), what could they have done? Make Shepard more dead?
Let's take a look at the other things(and I still believe ExoGeni is a Cerberus-outlet):
Experimenting on Rachni, thorian Creepers, a Reaper and a little biotic girl.
The Rachni are a sentient species, the Thorian was a monster that enslaved an entire colony, the Reaper tranformed the entire staff(just like the ExoGeni-Archealogists in ME1 with that device) and none the less they drugged a girl into a mental state of authism to see what they can get of biotics.

The only point that makes me think, is the facility on Pragia, where they say TIM would be pi**ed if he found out about their methods.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Then I apologize for that. Still, I have to label you as hater, just because you fall into the same category with the rest who disagree with TIM's methods, motives personality, or whatever and enough of them admit that they "hate Cerberus".

Oh. Oh, I see how it is. Right. "Your crowd, my crowd". You can't be seen with the likes of me. Well go on, draw your lines in the sand. You have to call me a hater in front of your friends, I get it. Well I hope you're happy.

I am not happy. I am... content.

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

You forgot about the Kittens. That success was the hugest.
Seriously, I'm not going to repeat for the millionth time that Cerberus definitely has a lot more successes, but they are not known about or are not attributed to Cerberus... Oh, wait, I am repeating it...

I'd like to see more of Cerberus's successes. Ones that don't directly relate to Shepard. I think they should show them. It's a little too easy to hate Cerberus.

Retribution -- Cerberus success against all odds.

Nightwriter wrote...
Or they need to show us how the sacrifices were worth it. Like you learn that 50 people died to get the technology that brought Shepard back to life.

Uhmmm... I'm afraid, that would impose a complex of guilt on some Shepards, so it's better not to know.

Nightwriter wrote...
Also what Cerberus turned those kitties into is unspeakable.

FOR CERBERUS! FOR TIM! KITTEH POWAH!!!

[Lewie]

TekFanX wrote...

The only point that makes me think, is the facility on Pragia, where they say TIM would be pi**ed if he found out about their methods.

This is just one point they dropped in that made me think too, and if cerberus is all powerful then why can't TIM even control his own organisation properly? What Pragia did was create Jack and kids were tortured and messed up. Again the pop ups on the loyalty mission were convenient also it cut the blame from cerberus. TIM can interpret any number of things he intercepts messages enough that he can control who gets a collector ship, he is all knowing when its convenient for him/cerberus. Maybe its a moralty issue but i still wouldn't trust him he has so many back doors you would get lost. Then i thought he could be on earth. Lol.

[ExtremeOne]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

So I did the final fight with Miranda and if you chose to blow the base - she resigns from Cerberus.

Before I did this I thought the arguments *for* Cerberus were pretty tenuous at best.. but I am really struggling to see why anyone would support TIM at all (post ME2)... pretty much the entire crew think you should blow it.

I know this topic is a very flogged horse, but I'm having a hard time really accepting there's any situation than an EVIL one where you're gonna side with TIM... and I mean EVIL and not renegade...

Are TIM supporters just being contrarians and oppositionists... or are there some decent arguments pro cerberus that haven't been discussed yet?   

  



i fully support Cerberus and TIM 

Modifié par ExtremeOne, 24 août 2010 - 01:05 .

[We'll bang okay]

just take time with her and u will start to like her more i did

[upsettingshorts]

Cerberus: To help you defeat the Reapers, here's a state of the art warship, crew, and list of people who can help.
Council : Ah yes, "Reapers."

So Cerberus at least has that going for them.

[Moiaussi]

mosor wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence, in other words then?
For all the pro cerberus people?

It's more than that. Logically, they are an extrememely well funded for a small organization, and plenty of people fund them privately with their own money. People give money to support sucessful enterprises not failures. Furthermore they are feared. People don't fear inept organizations. Finally, they rebuilt normandy, built EDI, and ressurected you. That's evidence of sucesss to me.

They could be very successful at piracy and/or manipulation. There are plenty of fraud schemes in history that made large payouts without the benefit of people having to actually charter a starship to confirm the results.

They rebuilt Normnady, built EDI, ressurrected you, but abandoned the base you were ressurrected on inexplicably. The station Jack was brought up on, likewise simply inexplicably abandoned. No sanitation missions to any of these sites (including to those in ME1). Were the Normandy, EDI and you exceptions? The evidence strongly suggests exceptions. They couldn't even simply shut down basic mechs on one of their own bases. Not AI's or Geth.. simply security mechs.

That is not a picture of competence.

(There is the possibility that it was all an act. Shepard conveniently just goes along with them on the shuttle, barring all logic. Mechs like that were not exactly a challenge for him).

[Zan51]

Have to say that the whole concept of using the many any way TIM likes to save the billions more, doesn't feel so good if you apply it to YOUR kid, or yourself! And playing as a Paragon, cos choosing Renegade options just usually goes against my own grain and just doesn't seem right, I find it only too easy to put myself into the shoes of those harmed by Cerberus. He's like a blackmailer and thug all rolled into one business suit, and more dangerous for that.