645 réponses à ce sujet

[tybbiesniffer]

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

Seifz wrote...

And seriously, stop acting like Europe is some magical place where sex and nudity are okay while the US is some land full of prudes.  There's plenty of sex and nudity to be found here.  Indeed, I'd say that I encounter something sexual or sexually suggestive far more often here than I ever did in the UK, Germany, or elsewhere.  The people making a big deal out of nudity here are a very, very small minority.  Mostly, they're religious fanatics and people who just want to be on TV.  You know, the "think of the children" types.  Idiots, really.  The vast majority of us are just fine with sex and nudity.   Hell, look at where most of the porn comes from! 

I'm not - I'm going by what I see, that's all. For example - I saw a French mobster movie not long ago about a crime spree in the 70s (Public Enemy No. 1 - can't recommend it enough) where the main character tends to like the ladies. He picks up a girl at a bar and we cut to them having sex in a dimly lit room with her on top, moaning in pleasure. Both characters are nude, you see breasts but nothing more. The whole thing doesn't last more than 5 seconds, but it seems appropriate and contextual in that film, just as ME1 showing a bit of flesh and snuggling seemed appropriate and contextual there.

I do think we reach an artistic impasse when developers claim to be making games that are adult and mature, yet consistantly have to compromise that because some parent might buy their child a game without looking at the box. If anything, I think the PEGI system's method of providing specifics of content; violence, gore, sexual innuendo, drug usage etc would greatly help if the ESRB adopted it. At least what was in the game would be clearly marked before purchase and you could only blame the parents who ignore it.

I'm curious.  How exactly are the games marked with PEGI's system?  Next to the ESRB rating there are things listed such as "blood and gore" and "partial nudity."  Does PEGI list things more clearly or explain them or something?  I'm not challenging you; I'm actually curious about the differences.

[AloraKast]

Niarviel wrote...

Most don't read the box because they think "Oh its a game, there can't possibly be anything bad in it" because, not to bash anyone, most only remember the harmless little pong games and puzzle games from their youth and think video games cannot have nudity or violence in them.

Yes, that appears to be the issue here.

These days games seem to be that final frontier when it comes to sexuality/nudity... Not violence, blood and gore, oh no, but rather the very basic themes of nudity and sexuality. It seems perfectly acceptable in movies, literature, other art forms, but in games this aspect appears to remain a taboo.

I kind of understand your point, seeing how people equate games with child-friendly but that is the very mentality that needs to be addressed and set straight. Games are constantly evolving in scope, complexity and it's an art form that is maturing over time. Just like there are various kinds of movies, ranging from G to R rated, the same applies to games and that is what people need to understand. And it is up to the leaders of the gaming industry to contribute to the evolution of this art form/form of entertainment.

Like I said before, I am not advocating inserting nudity/sexual elements into games simply for their own sake. However, if the occassion or character demand it, then yes, absolutely, have those elements in there and not handle the whole thing with leather gloves. Have it done tastefully, artistically - ME1 is a really good example of that - and not handle it rather awkwardly in an M rated game - like was done in DA and ME2, although imo to a lesser extent.

I suppose only time will tell whether the leaders of the gaming industry will truly prove to be pioneers.

[tybbiesniffer]

Niarviel wrote...

Most don't read the box because they think "Oh its a game, there can't possibly be anything bad in it" because, not to bash anyone, most only remember the harmless little pong games and puzzle games from their youth and think video games cannot have nudity or violence in them.

That's hardly an excuse for them, however.  Technology is a very big part of our world.  I think if you're going to live and the world and, especially, raise children in it, you need some sort of awareness of what technology they may be using (including video games).  For example (though it's hardly technological), when I was a young teenager and wanted to play D&D, my mom actually sat down and played it with us (my Dad did a little, too, now that I think about it) to make sure it wasn't anything inappropriate or evil (back in the days of the whole "D&D will lead to suicide, death, mayhem, etc. thing").

[Niarviel]

AloraKast wrote...

Niarviel wrote...

Most don't read the box because they think "Oh its a game, there can't possibly be anything bad in it" because, not to bash anyone, most only remember the harmless little pong games and puzzle games from their youth and think video games cannot have nudity or violence in them.

Yes, that appears to be the issue here.

These days games seem to be that final frontier when it comes to sexuality/nudity... Not violence, blood and gore, oh no, but rather the very basic themes of nudity and sexuality. It seems perfectly acceptable in movies, literature, other art forms, but in games this aspect appears to remain a taboo.

I kind of understand your point, seeing how people equate games with child-friendly but that is the very mentality that needs to be addressed and set straight. Games are constantly evolving in scope, complexity and it's an art form that is maturing over time. Just like there are various kinds of movies, ranging from G to R rated, the same applies to games and that is what people need to understand. And it is up to the leaders of the gaming industry to contribute to the evolution of this art form/form of entertainment.

Like I said before, I am not advocating inserting nudity/sexual elements into games simply for their own sake. However, if the occassion or character demand it, then yes, absolutely, have those elements in there and not handle the whole thing with leather gloves. Have it done tastefully, artistically - ME1 is a really good example of that - and not handle it rather awkwardly in an M rated game - like was done in DA and ME2, although imo to a lesser extent.

I suppose only time will tell whether the leaders of the gaming industry will truly prove to be pioneers.

I wonder why the ME1 scenes got so much rage. I mean in my opinion the DA scenes revealed more, save for the fact they were clothed, but still. Perhaps Bioware should take another risk and make tastfully done scenes in DA2.

Another reason why people rage over sex in games could be "There is no reason for it, Its a game!" Too many think sex has no place in games, which makes some scene, but i view games a interactive movies.

[Vandrayke]

I think the only real reason to throw sex and nudity in a game is to establish passion between two characters for the sake of the story, which you don't even need actual nudity to do. There's nothing to gain by going the extra step.

[ErichHartmann]

"There will always be censorship in America because we are not as awesome as Japan."



Japan has censored games in the past. The blood in Mortal Kombat II was changed from red to green. Changes were made to Fallout 3 for the Japanese release a few years ago. They tend to tone down graphic violence in Western games.



/shrugs

[Niarviel]

tybbiesniffer wrote...

Niarviel wrote...

Most don't read the box because they think "Oh its a game, there can't possibly be anything bad in it" because, not to bash anyone, most only remember the harmless little pong games and puzzle games from their youth and think video games cannot have nudity or violence in them.

That's hardly an excuse for them, however.  Technology is a very big part of our world.  I think if you're going to live and the world and, especially, raise children in it, you need some sort of awareness of what technology they may be using (including video games).  For example (though it's hardly technological), when I was a young teenager and wanted to play D&D, my mom actually sat down and played it with us (my Dad did a little, too, now that I think about it) to make sure it wasn't anything inappropriate or evil (back in the days of the whole "D&D will lead to suicide, death, mayhem, etc. thing").

Not enough parents sit down and play video games with their kids just to make sure the game is appropriate for them. At times parents go ballistic if there is any mention of sexual content on a game box. This happened to a friend of mine who wanted to get DA:O and his mom said no cause it has sexual content, she even said "I don't want you having fantasy's of sex from some video game, they need to teach you that in school, not learn it from a game!" And again, this being a person who thinks the whole game is about sex just because it says "Sexual Content" on the box.

[Fraevar]

tybbiesniffer wrote...

I'm curious.  How exactly are the games marked with PEGI's system?  Next to the ESRB rating there are things listed such as "blood and gore" and "partial nudity."  Does PEGI list things more clearly or explain them or something?  I'm not challenging you; I'm actually curious about the differences.

http://www.pegi.info/en/index/

There ya go. It's a symbol and a brief description. You can go to the website and look up a game's rating.

But I do believe that a major difference is the 18yr old rating as opposed to Mature in the States being 17. Legal rights and all that. Plus the fact that a game being rated 18+ over here does not mean a ban from stores. They really need to seperate nudity/sexual content from the pornographic AO rating in the ESRB, imho.

Mass Effect 2 was rated 18+ and has a content indicator for violence, but not nudity. You can view that two ways. Either they forgot (not likely as they do play the games) or they simply didn't consider the supposed romantic content sexual enough to warrant the label. I remember that my ME1 box doesn't have a notice for sex, just violence and it was rated 16+, not 18+.

But I also think it's because the EU regional offices and the games retailing industry got together and discussed how to better educate purchasers about games. When I go to my local game shop the rating system is clearly displayed at the counter and there's a stand with folders in which famous local celebrities guide parents on the meaning of the ratings and so on.

Modifié par Delerius_Jedi, 21 août 2010 - 03:27 .

[Vandrayke]

ErichHartmann wrote...

"There will always be censorship in America because we are not as awesome as Japan."

Japan has censored games in the past. The blood in Mortal Kombat II was changed from red to green. Changes were made to Fallout 3 for the Japanese release a few years ago. They tend to tone down graphic violence in Western games.

/shrugs

Doesn't Japanese porn have that weird pixel censoring going on?  Lol.  

[Everwarden]

thegreateski wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Know what I want to see?

Arcanum of Steamworks and Magic Obscura... 2. That game was amazing, nothing you'd ever see on a console.

Yeah, consoles fail. Leave PC games alone and go play Super Mario.

That's funny.

I've never heard of those 2 games and Mario is the most famous video game character in existence.

So I guess I will go "play Mario".

It's one game, but that kinda proves my point. Mario is the best, most famous console game icon. What are the PC gaming icons? Starcraft, Baldur's Gate, The Sims... fine, that last one doesn't help my case, but I think my point is clear: In order to improve PC gaming, we must lead an Exalted March against consoles and console gamers, by ridding the world of these parasites we will forever improve the quality of PC games. Never again will we see a watered down RPG with "moar pewpew" and less stratagy! Never again will we see our characters bump and grind in their underpants because seeing a nipple might offend the parents of the 12 year old boy demographic!

Console gamers are evil and soulless, and are slowly corroding the integrity of PC gaming by merely existing, and they must be stopped*.




*Fine, fine, I admit I was wrong. Was a gut reaction to hearing 'dumbed down Dragon Age'. Still fun to rant from time to time.

[AloraKast]

Niarviel wrote...

I wonder why the ME1 scenes got so much rage. I mean in my opinion the DA scenes revealed more, save for the fact they were clothed, but still. Perhaps Bioware should take another risk and make tastfully done scenes in DA2.

Another reason why people rage over sex in games could be "There is no reason for it, Its a game!" Too many think sex has no place in games, which makes some scene, but i view games a interactive movies.

Yeah, I never understood the whole rage about the ME1 scene myself.  Imo, it was handled very well, conveyed the emotion of the moment and the relatioship rather beautifully. The whole thing flowed very nicely. It was hardly "full frontal" or porn or what have you - it was a side shot of a naked buttocks and a side shot of a naked breast. That's it!

But what I personally care about is the emotion conveyed with that beautiful and tasteful handling of the situation, not whether I got to see a side of an ass or boob.

It was metioned already in this thread, but the whole "rage" over the scene was apparently some moron who's never even seen the scene himself but rather heard it second- or even third-hand and decide to throw up this huge fuss for the sake of ratings. Honestly!

[Niarviel]

AloraKast wrote...

Niarviel wrote...

I wonder why the ME1 scenes got so much rage. I mean in my opinion the DA scenes revealed more, save for the fact they were clothed, but still. Perhaps Bioware should take another risk and make tastfully done scenes in DA2.

Another reason why people rage over sex in games could be "There is no reason for it, Its a game!" Too many think sex has no place in games, which makes some scene, but i view games a interactive movies.

Yeah, I never understood the whole rage about the ME1 scene myself.  Imo, it was handled very well, conveyed the emotion of the moment and the relatioship rather beautifully. The whole thing flowed very nicely. It was hardly "full frontal" or porn or what have you - it was a side shot of a naked buttocks and a side shot of a naked breast. That's it!

But what I personally care about is the emotion conveyed with that beautiful and tasteful handling of the situation, not whether I got to see a side of an ass or boob.

It was metioned already in this thread, but the whole "rage" over the scene was apparently some moron who's never even seen the scene himself but rather heard it second- or even third-hand and decide to throw up this huge fuss for the sake of ratings. Honestly!

The things people do...Though i can see why there was the rage over GTA, the whole sex minigame...Anyway. Back the topic name, what is Unnecessary Censorship?

[AloraKast]

DA and ME2? Imo, yes.

I really hope BioWare will actually decide to take up the mantle of leadership and follow the precedent they set with ME1...

Hey, I can dream, right?

[Niarviel]

AloraKast wrote...

DA and ME2? Imo, yes.

I really hope BioWare will actually decide to take up the mantle of leadership and follow the precedent they set with ME1...

Hey, I can dream, right?

I had a dream!

Of Liara and Fem Shep! That is all.

That was another issue people had with ME1 was the whole "Lesbian" Scene. I guess haters gonna hate.

[tybbiesniffer]

[quote]Everwarden wrote...

Know what I want to see?

Arcanum of Steamworks and Magic Obscura... 2. That game was amazing, nothing you'd ever see on a console.

Yeah, consoles fail. Leave PC games alone and go play Super Mario. [/quote]

[/quote]

Just wanted to offer my support for the bolded thought.

Modifié par tybbiesniffer, 21 août 2010 - 04:02 .

[Niarviel]

jln.francisco wrote...

Niarviel wrote...

AloraKast wrote...

DA and ME2? Imo, yes.

I really hope BioWare will actually decide to take up the mantle of leadership and follow the precedent they set with ME1...

Hey, I can dream, right?

I had a dream!

Of Liara and Fem Shep! That is all.

That was another issue people had with ME1 was the whole "Lesbian" Scene. I guess haters gonna hate.

You have no idea. Try having a civilized discussion with some of the mothers I've met about homosexuality in games. I swear, a brick wall has more critical thought then a lot of the people we deluded ourselves into thinking biology has granted a magical gift to never make bad decisions for children.

I really hope there are gay romances in DA2. Even if I don't play the game, a video game company handling sexuality in a mature way would be much appreciated.

Zevran was a nice touch in DA:O, and hopefully they will stick with the LI set up. 1 for Fem, 1 for Male, and 2 for both. Aslong as it is that same basic setup, i will be happy. Oh and there has to be a brothel, with more than just human's in it too, i want dwarves, elfs, and qunari too! Qunari LI would be awsome...Hopefully we have a Qunari party member. And a sort of HK-47 person, like shale was for DA and Legion for ME2.

But i digress, Hurray for homosexuality in videogames! Providing experimentation options for everyone since...DA:O!

[AlexXIV]

Niarviel wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

Niarviel wrote...

AloraKast wrote...

DA and ME2? Imo, yes.

I really hope BioWare will actually decide to take up the mantle of leadership and follow the precedent they set with ME1...

Hey, I can dream, right?

I had a dream!

Of Liara and Fem Shep! That is all.

That was another issue people had with ME1 was the whole "Lesbian" Scene. I guess haters gonna hate.

You have no idea. Try having a civilized discussion with some of the mothers I've met about homosexuality in games. I swear, a brick wall has more critical thought then a lot of the people we deluded ourselves into thinking biology has granted a magical gift to never make bad decisions for children.

I really hope there are gay romances in DA2. Even if I don't play the game, a video game company handling sexuality in a mature way would be much appreciated.

Zevran was a nice touch in DA:O, and hopefully they will stick with the LI set up. 1 for Fem, 1 for Male, and 2 for both. Aslong as it is that same basic setup, i will be happy. Oh and there has to be a brothel, with more than just human's in it too, i want dwarves, elfs, and qunari too! Qunari LI would be awsome...Hopefully we have a Qunari party member. And a sort of HK-47 person, like shale was for DA and Legion for ME2.

But i digress, Hurray for homosexuality in videogames! Providing experimentation options for everyone since...DA:O!

Honestly Leliana is a psycho and Morrigan *spoiler*










dumps you at the end. How was that satisfying?

I know, off-topic but still ...

[Niarviel]

I like cake.



Censorship will always be around, nothing we can do about it. All we can do is hope someone hacks the game and makes a mod to take it out.

[Niarviel]

Wait...How is Leliana a psycho? I found her to be one of the more sane people of DA:O

[Saibh]

Niarviel wrote...

Wait...How is Leliana a psycho? I found her to be one of the more sane people of DA:O

Her relationship is pretty bugged, and her jealousy comes off as a little psychotic.

Also.

I HAVE A JAR FOR YOUR EYELASHES!

/hyperbole

[NatOreN]

Saibh wrote...

Niarviel wrote...

Wait...How is Leliana a psycho? I found her to be one of the more sane people of DA:O

Her relationship is pretty bugged, and her jealousy comes off as a little psychotic.

Also.

I HAVE A JAR FOR YOUR EYELASHES!

/hyperbole

I can't understand the problem people seem to have about her eyelashes remark. Is it such a bad, borderline-psychotic thing to be a hopeless romantic? That's how her comment came off to me, at least. I didn't find it psychotic, I found it a nice if a bit failed attempt at being romantic.