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Designing for Low Magic Modules: Your Opinion


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#1
MokahTGS

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In developing Jabberwocky, I've been mulling over the design goal of a very low level of magic available in reguards of gear available to players.  I've always appreciated the Ultima games and how those games always kept magical arms and armor a realitive rare occurance.  Once you aquired one, you felt much more powerful.  Both NWN & NWN2 have given into the monty haul aspect of gaming and +2 weapons seem to be throw-away items rather quickly.

I'd like to design Jabberwocky with the idea that a masterwork sword is the highest level of weapon available, allowing the poems Vorpal blade to be extremely desirable for the player.  This would force the player to depend on skills, feats, spells, and consumables for their boosting.  Critters of course would need to be balanced for this of course, but I'm also OK with this module being on the difficult side.  The player dying is actually expected and planed for...:devil:

The question that rises is what about other gear?  What about cloaks, rings, amulets, etc?  How limited would you as a player be comfortable with?  What do you think of this style of gameplay?

Also, for your enjoyment, here are a couple more screenies:

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Posted Image

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Modifié par MokahTGS, 20 août 2010 - 06:03 .


#2
nicethugbert

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I don't see any inherent problem with low magic level and I think most modules do not make consumables important enough. For once I'd like to see cauldrons of Acid or Alchemist Fire put to good use. If not for fire, how else would the lower level life forms survive against monstrosities?

#3
Quixal

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I am likely of no help as I am comfortable with pretty much any level of magic in terms of loot. I have a slight preference for low but I think the choice is a stylistic one that should match the work. The only thing I will say is that in a low magic setting, I think it is especially important to give the magic items a good written description and history. Obviously somewhat defined in terms of this project.

Fantastic visuals, by the way.

#4
dunniteowl

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I think low magic is a great way to change the pace of things. I tend to agree about the Monty Haul aspect. I love magic and I love the wide variety of magical things that can be found in any given adventure, but if you read classic folklore, there is a very limited amount of magical things and one has to travel far and wide to find more than a few items of merit.

Today, it's all forgotten, like in TV shows. Just because there are 10 different shows that depict Terrorists striking the Los Angeles Downtown area doesn't really mean there's a lot of crime -- it's a show -- several of them -- and it's entertainment. We get used to seeing it that someone thinks that more must be better.

I think maybe the Spartans had a good idea to a point. Keep it basic and simple.

As long as you balance creature encounters and make the magic useful throughout the adventure, I think you should please your vision and do it. I'm really looking forward to playing this one, Mokah.

dunniteowl

#5
Arkalezth

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I like low magic, too. I think you should keep the balance for every type of item. Ok, a mundane cloak or some mundane boots are useless, but if every item has a bonus to AC, while weapons being mundane, that would unbalance combat.

So you could add some skill bonuses, bonus feats or per day abilities to some of those items, with the occasional bonus to AC.

For example, a ring that lets you cast Light, or a cloak with a bonus to Hide. That way, those items have some use, but they won't affect combat balance a lot.



Nice screens, looking forward to the release.

#6
MokahTGS

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Yeah, I like non-combat items that make sense as far as bonuses. There is quite a large OM with this module and items that give skill bonuses would be welcomed I would think. Boots that give perks to travel speed or guard against toxic swamp goo make sense. When you go wilderness hiking, you bring gear to help you in the wilderness.



Any climber on Half Dome would tell you that climbing shoes would give you a +5 to your climb skill. They aren't magic, just designed for climbing.

#7
nicethugbert

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You could have high enchantment magic items made plot and tied to the story. The party could collect a large amount of resources to have this crafted.

Some typically worthless items could be made crucial to advancement in the story, even crafted by a high level NPC who is mercenary so unwilling to get involved in the local problems but does have a certain fondness. Example, a whistle that hurts only a certain monster, without it, the monster is much more difficult to defeat if not impossible. The player could grind to a really high level to tackle the monster. Or, they could follow the story going on the quests to collect the resources to have the item made by a special NPC, it not being a typical magic item but a specialty item. Or, maybe the party has just the right priest to make the item. Either way they have to get the ingredients, like essence of cat's whisper.


What's the max party size? What NPCs are available to join the party? Party members are like magic items too.  A resource is a resource is ......

Modifié par nicethugbert, 20 août 2010 - 07:58 .


#8
MokahTGS

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Yes, the party size is also up for debate as I do have SoZ Party Creation Active ATM, and there is one companion that the player will take as well. The party members would really just be for combat backup as I'm not going to do in-depth party conversations for this mod. That is way beyond the scope of this module.

#9
nicethugbert

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I'd take huge party over high magic any day. Party building is more interesting and flexible than magic items.

#10
Haplose

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Awesome art.

I also don't mind low-magic. Quite the opposite in fact. I prefer to rely on character stats, feats and skills, as well as tactics, then on powerfull equipment.

That said non-magical or low magical doesn't mean it has to look bad. It can still be nicely customized, have atmospheric descriptions. Most of all, be well designed.
I recently stumbled across this nwvault.ign.com/View.php collection of custom gear and now am in awe how well the equipment can look in NWN2. Clearly Obsidian dropped the ball on artistic design...

#11
MokahTGS

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Haplose wrote...

Awesome art.

I also don't mind low-magic. Quite the opposite in fact. I prefer to rely on character stats, feats and skills, as well as tactics, then on powerfull equipment.

That said non-magical or low magical doesn't mean it has to look bad. It can still be nicely customized, have atmospheric descriptions. Most of all, be well designed.
I recently stumbled across this nwvault.ign.com/View.php collection of custom gear and now am in awe how well the equipment can look in NWN2. Clearly Obsidian dropped the ball on artistic design...


You'll be glad to know that I'm using this very same pack in Jabberwocky.  I hate boring NPCs...

#12
UncleGerhardt

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WotC instructed Obsidian that the Armors had to look asymmetric when the Art was already done. That certainly didn't improve the Look of the Armors.

Modifié par UncleGerhardt, 21 août 2010 - 07:16 .


#13
The Fred

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I too like low magic, but what I like best is attaching a greater value to magic items (the two do to an extent go hand-in-hand, of course). For example, items which have unique powers and backstories are more interesting. I don't mind getting a fairly powerful item as long as it's not common to do so. Baldur's Gate is often refered to as being low magic, and it did it well, because while +1 items (not just weapons but rings of protection etc) were reasonably common once you actually started finding magical items, anything more was generally interesting and had a backstory of some sort. Likewise there was only one of most of these items, so while the Helm of Peace was quite powerful, you could never get two copies of it, and only one character could wear it. In fact it would be pretty hard to fill up all 6 characters' slots with magic items because you'd be lucky if there were 6 magic cloaks, rings, pairs of boots and gloves or bracers in the game.

UncleGerhardt wrote...

WotC instructed Obsidian that the Armors had to look asymmetric when the Art was already done. That certainly didn't improve the Look of the Armors.


Why the hell did they do this? I mean, I like asymmetric armour (never liked the inability to retexture an armour asymmetrically in NWN1) but it seems silly to insist on it.

#14
Banshe

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Haplose wrote...

Awesome art.

I also don't mind low-magic. Quite the opposite in fact. I prefer to rely on character stats, feats and skills, as well as tactics, then on powerfull equipment.

That said non-magical or low magical doesn't mean it has to look bad. It can still be nicely customized, have atmospheric descriptions. Most of all, be well designed.
I recently stumbled across this nwvault.ign.com/View.php collection of custom gear and now am in awe how well the equipment can look in NWN2. Clearly Obsidian dropped the ball on artistic design...


Actually that armor is Obsidian's work. The author made blueprints, not models. He just put it in the wrong category (hakpacks).

#15
nicethugbert

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Give the baddies some heavy DR of type x/+y. So, even if they have low AC, they'll be menacing to anyone without the required enhancement, or elemental damage. 20/+1 DR is godly when no one has a +1 weapon.  It'll also justify all those pitch fork and fire wielding villagers.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 21 août 2010 - 02:09 .


#16
M. Rieder

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As long as there are scolls for wizards, I'll be happy. I think it is good to make the items a little less powerful. It makes things more interesting.

#17
M. Rieder

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Nice screenshots, by the way.

#18
Tonytobinus

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The fewer magic items you find, the more magical they are. And I would definitely make a big deal out of them in the game - have NPCs react to them and mention them by name, or even have small cutscenes when they're found. Don't know if those suggestions would help for your specific plans, but they're something to consider.

#19
BigfootNZ

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Low magic is always good in the long run, in terms of your setting id say things like cloaks, amulets and the like should be the only plentiul magical items, after all they are usually the type of things the local witch or wizard would make over a suit of armor or weapon (Such items like weapons and armor are often commisioned by Kings though for war or a specific task, and as such only kings or a ruined kingdoms overgrown dungeons should have them and even then only singly for the most part).

I wouldnt go higher than +2 in terms of bonuses on anything, or +3-5 with skill ranks and keep em to say 1 or 2 properties only. ie a Knight in full plate is a fearsome opponent, but a Knight also wearing a magical amulet of natural armor +2 crafted by a local witch for a 'price' is suddenly even more scary (ie a 10% increase to avoid attacks), or the cloak that lets a player turn invisible once per day becomes a boon if designed with a situation that the player can take advantage of with it and they have no access to spells. Also id do more specialised, situational items, more AC vs, Damage vs rather than the universal versions... a regular sheild when weilded against a particular type of foe gains +3 AC is a good example, the shield was made for a purpose and its magic directed towards it, its only magical in the right situation. Its powerfull, but its power is heavily restricted outside its purpose. Id also keep wand charges to around 10 max and nothing to strong, id avoid AoE spell wands also, leave those to the wizards spell book.

Also in balancing creatures id give em some form of overall damage resistance based on their natural armor, ie a thick hide would be 2/- peircing, heavy scales 3/- , rock 5/- bludgeoning, wood 3/- slashing etc ... this way the player needs to at least carry a few other types of weapons with em, a Mace or club, with a dagger.

Also id avoid giving players any magic items that increase spell slots or increases a spell casters prime stat, this way a wizard has to dump stat points into their spell casting stat to gain bonus spell slots and keeps over all spell numbers down (although bonus spells hardly contribute a huge ammount), it also makes such wizards far weaker in other areas. To me a wizard should be the cannon in waiting, with that memorised fireball spell saved only for when its really really needed, not every second fight, and the more utalitarian spells become more popular since rather than being offensive, they instead have to become more a buffer to improve their less magically endowed companions, two magic weapon spells, a keen weapon spell, and mage armor with a magic missle to lob at the strongest foe, instead of having all their 1st level slots filled out with nothing but MM at higher levels.

Dont forget players are vain, so giving them a number of different looking mundane weapons and cloaks, armor etc while gaining no real benefit over any other, they can at least think they look good. Reward a player with jet black half-plate ro replace their old greyone and most will be happy.

Im from old 1st edition D&D so for me, the fact that some of your most powerful plannar creatures required a +3 weapon to actual damage (none of this 10/- +2 crud, where with a crit you can overcome their resistance, even though it does make sense that way) and +4-5's where more or less reserved for combating the very gods themselves to me anything +1-2 in equivilant power is more or less top level stuff.

It sure makes low level spells like Magic Weapon and buffing suddenly a whole lot more desirable and required even by higher level players. It also kinda brings melee into line with casters since the casters to be truely effective have to prop up the melee with buffs, whcih means less direct offensive spells.

Hmm ive rambled :P

#20
PJ156

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Personally I am compfortable with magic in the mix, provided it is not excessive; that balance can be hard to find.

The issues I see with low magic are that it needs to combine with a crafting system that meets the level of magic in the environment (I am not a great fan of crafting for this reason). If magic is easy to craft (too easy IMO) then for low magic you have to limit the recipies or the crafting materials or not have crafting.

MTGS mentions boots which give +5 to climbing without being magical. This to me makes sense to me, an elf might make these as they might boots which make you treat silently or a cloak which blends you into woodland. In the same way gloves of the hin fist +1 also make sense. However, this is just gloves with steel knuckles sewn in, one would be crafted specifically by an expert, the other could be a roll of coins in the fist of the fighter. My point is the crafting system becomes complex and the items are still called the same sort of thing.

My next question mark is that of balance, it has been mentioned before that items gain significance in a low magic environment. So a +2 sword should have a history and it would not be simply lost (or rarely so), as should a masterwork sword (as is true in our own history). It is most likely that such items will be weilded against you making that combat tough. Once you gain the item there will be people wanting to get that item back. This is all good and should add a huge amount of depth to the tale. However when we come to vorpal swords (I don't know your plan for this but it sounds like a good item) then things become very unbalanced. From a story point of veiw that is good, but from a play point of view having a +5 sword is going to make combat against emenies with no rings of protection or + shields/amulets hard to balance.

I guess I am not argueing against a low magic environ I do see technical issues though, which for me, are easiest met by including magic but keeping it balanced (oh, and banning crafting Posted Image).

Good luck with striking your balance Ms Strumpet. The pictures are fab, if the same effort goes into your magic system then it's going to work out well whatever you choose.

BigFootNZ has a good point about vanity, do give us lots of nice things to wear, I can cope with multiple respawns so long as I look good.

Cheers,

PJ

  

Modifié par PJ156, 22 août 2010 - 12:13 .


#21
nicethugbert

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I want to use Kaedrin's class Pack.

#22
MokahTGS

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Well crafting is definitely out as far as equipment.  That would be impossible to control.  Alchemy will be part of Jabberwocky, as will a foraging system.  I want the player using those low level spells for buffing weapons and armor.  The main magical weapon in the game is the Vorpal blade, which the player will have to create as part of the plot.  All other "magical" items will either be quested for or have some sort of story hook.

I LOVE looking good for a mod so you better believe I will give the player options.

Treasure drops will be mostly consumables, alchemy materials or gold to buy more consumables or alchemy materials.  Plus torches will burn out so bring lots when delving into those deep dark caves...

#23
The Fred

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If you have a plot sword (which you do) then there's no point in giving the player the option of creating something more powerful than it, or nearly as powerful. I also kind of agree with what BigfootNZ said. I remember in BG1 the most powerful sword (in pure damage terms) was "The World's Edge", a +3 two-handed sword, and that was only in the expansion. Everything else was +2 or lower (unlesss you killed Drizzt for his scimmies, of course), though admittedly there was "Spider's Bane" which was +2 but gave free movement while you held it (better than another +1 any day).

#24
Gilradthegreat

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Though Baldur's Gate shouldn't be taken as the poster-boy for low-magic settings either. Anyone remember the Claw of Kazagoroth? or the tomes that PERMANENTLY increased your stats? Flail of ages that gives +3 to damage? While BG1 didn't necessarily have a list of +1 items to +5, many respectably powerful magical items ended up merchant fodder before I finished the game.

#25
Haplose

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Banshe wrote...

Haplose wrote...

Awesome art.

I also don't mind low-magic. Quite the opposite in fact. I prefer to rely on character stats, feats and skills, as well as tactics, then on powerfull equipment.

That said non-magical or low magical doesn't mean it has to look bad. It can still be nicely customized, have atmospheric descriptions. Most of all, be well designed.
I recently stumbled across this nwvault.ign.com/View.php collection of custom gear and now am in awe how well the equipment can look in NWN2. Clearly Obsidian dropped the ball on artistic design...


Actually that armor is Obsidian's work. The author made blueprints, not models. He just put it in the wrong category (hakpacks).


That may be. If so, even worse that Obsidian didn't really use this art. And players and NPCs ended up wearing hideously ugly default stuff.