Aller au contenu

Photo

Designing for Low Magic Modules: Your Opinion


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
50 réponses à ce sujet

#26
Haplose

Haplose
  • Members
  • 1 262 messages

MokahTGS wrote...

Haplose wrote...

Awesome art.

I also don't mind low-magic. Quite the opposite in fact. I prefer to rely on character stats, feats and skills, as well as tactics, then on powerfull equipment.

That said non-magical or low magical doesn't mean it has to look bad. It can still be nicely customized, have atmospheric descriptions. Most of all, be well designed.
I recently stumbled across this nwvault.ign.com/View.php collection of custom gear and now am in awe how well the equipment can look in NWN2. Clearly Obsidian dropped the ball on artistic design...


You'll be glad to know that I'm using this very same pack in Jabberwocky.  I hate boring NPCs...


Great! If anything, at least the visual side of your project looks amazing!

#27
nicethugbert

nicethugbert
  • Members
  • 5 209 messages
There is often a concern about success and power in NWN2 modules expressed in these forums. But, what about failure and weakness? Those can be resources and opportunities too.

What happens when the PC fails? Typically in D&D, the game ends for them. That's no fun. So, the players obsess about power in order to keep playing the game.

If failure and weakness are just another way to play the game, or even more entertaining than power or success, then more players will make weak or unsuccessful characters.

Power and success typically win in short order. Failure and weakness produce delays and inefficiencies. Therefore, the majority of the content should involve failure and weakness. If you plow through the module, you see less of it.

This is not to say that failure should be rewarded, simply that it is an opportunity to play the game, even more so than success. If you succeed, you get to the reward quicker than if you fail. If you fail you might not even get a reward, but, you can still play. You may actually play more and see more content, but not neccessarily rewards. In this case, the focus is on story, not loot.

For instance, the PC is in a state of atonement under which he cannot gain anymore XP until he atones or renounces his deity. Now he can go on a series of highly entertaining side quests to atone or acquire the favor of a new deity.  His failure might even be success in the eyes of another deity.  When he's done, he may have actually gained some valuable insight into his main quest.

Perhaps he acquires very little gold in the process of atonement thereby finding it hard to replenish supplies. So, he has to do some hunting and gathering to get items to trade for maintenance funds or craft replacements. In so doing he temporarily regresses to the activities he did at alower level. While they may have been progress at the lower level, it's just maintenance at the higher level.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 22 août 2010 - 04:07 .


#28
kamalpoe

kamalpoe
  • Members
  • 711 messages

nicethugbert wrote...
What happens when the PC fails? Typically in D&D, the game ends for them. That's no fun. So, the players obsess about power in order to keep playing the game.

This is not to say that failure should be rewarded, simply that it is an opportunity to play the game, even more so than success.

It's a trade off of builder time.  A DM can handle it, but pre-scripting failure and success in a non-DM'd module for things doubles or more the work as there are now two or more quest paths. Many people will just reload if they fail as well. If you make a quest where it's impossible to succeed that's another thing, but that's likely to frustrate players as well.

I've thought about this a fair amount, my next work has the party failing as the central point.

#29
nicethugbert

nicethugbert
  • Members
  • 5 209 messages

kamalpoe wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
What happens when the PC fails? Typically in D&D, the game ends for them. That's no fun. So, the players obsess about power in order to keep playing the game.

This is not to say that failure should be rewarded, simply that it is an opportunity to play the game, even more so than success.

It's a trade off of builder time.  A DM can handle it, but pre-scripting failure and success in a non-DM'd module for things doubles or more the work as there are now two or more quest paths. Many people will just reload if they fail as well. If you make a quest where it's impossible to succeed that's another thing, but that's likely to frustrate players as well.

I've thought about this a fair amount, my next work has the party failing as the central point.


Everything is a trade off of builder time.  But, I look forward to failure as the central point.  It'll be an interesting experiment.

#30
LeeMer47

LeeMer47
  • Members
  • 111 messages
I'd set the wizard spell gain to 0 so wizards could only get spells from scrolls. Sorcerers are a problem though. They can't transcribe scrolls.

#31
The Fred

The Fred
  • Members
  • 2 516 messages

nicethugbert wrote...

There is often a concern about success and power in NWN2 modules expressed in these forums. But, what about failure and weakness? Those can be resources and opportunities too.

What happens when the PC fails? Typically in D&D, the game ends for them. That's no fun. So, the players obsess about power in order to keep playing the game.


I was thinking about this quite a while back and so decided to have instances where failing one quest would not be more rewarding than succeeding (otherwise people will fail on purpose) but open up a new quest, perhaps to right the wrongs of the previous mistake. Part of the idea is to "train" the player just to run with it when they make a mistake, so that even when it doesn't really open anything new, they don't just reach for the reload button.

As Kamalpoe said, though, it's all more work for the builder. Image IPB

#32
MokahTGS

MokahTGS
  • Members
  • 946 messages
I've never been a fan of the reload button. In Vertex, I planned for the players death and wrote it into the story. In Jabberwocky, the player's eventual demise is also planned for, and rewarded in a way...

#33
Haplose

Haplose
  • Members
  • 1 262 messages

The Fred wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

There is often a concern about success and power in NWN2 modules expressed in these forums. But, what about failure and weakness? Those can be resources and opportunities too.

What happens when the PC fails? Typically in D&D, the game ends for them. That's no fun. So, the players obsess about power in order to keep playing the game.


I was thinking about this quite a while back and so decided to have instances where failing one quest would not be more rewarding than succeeding (otherwise people will fail on purpose) but open up a new quest, perhaps to right the wrongs of the previous mistake. Part of the idea is to "train" the player just to run with it when they make a mistake, so that even when it doesn't really open anything new, they don't just reach for the reload button.

As Kamalpoe said, though, it's all more work for the builder. Image IPB


The Last of the Danaan has a system like that in place. In many quests you could suceed, sometimes against the odds and that was planned for, but you could also partially/fully fail and you didn't have to reload (well unless you died), as that was accounted for as well and the game proceeded further - and you often then got another quest to make things right.

It was the first time I faced something like this and was quite amazed playing it. A very cool experience.

#34
Gilradthegreat

Gilradthegreat
  • Members
  • 66 messages
The only issue with incorporating failure that I see, however, is that unless it is heavily scripted (see Conan Chronicles for an example of this), you're basically fighting against years of association and training from the player. In almost every game on the market, failing equates to restarting and trying not to fail. Even in popular games that take failures into account (Alpha Protocol), I found the urge to reload and not horribly fail like an amateur irresistible. Simply put, you can't expect most players to easily abandon such an ingrained idea lightly.

#35
Eguintir Eligard

Eguintir Eligard
  • Members
  • 1 832 messages
Its all well and good for ultima to keep magic items to 2 or 3 but thats a single avatar with no fixed class that can only use such and such feats.



If you are allowing multiple classes, the weapon selection has to grow with each class. Further to that, as in my campaign where I desired as few magic weapons as possible, in order to ensure the party of 6 plus 3 out of party companions all had at least something to use, the loot lay out had to grow (albeit it is not inflation as, each weapon type is different).



I mitigate it somewhat but warning the player that only 2nd edition type weapons are available and not to waste feats on silly junk like kukris and scythes etc.



Ultimately there ends up being a moderate amount of weapons, but unique in that you cant really replace any of them (only one good magic ax, one good mace, etc)


#36
Shaughn78

Shaughn78
  • Members
  • 637 messages

Gilradthegreat wrote...

The only issue with incorporating failure that I see, however, is that unless it is heavily scripted (see Conan Chronicles for an example of this), you're basically fighting against years of association and training from the player. In almost every game on the market, failing equates to restarting and trying not to fail. Even in popular games that take failures into account (Alpha Protocol), I found the urge to reload and not horribly fail like an amateur irresistible. Simply put, you can't expect most players to easily abandon such an ingrained idea lightly.



I have found first hand that players do not like a quest that ends in failure.

The area I released for the SOZ holdiay expansion ended with the evil drow killing the paladin then escaping. Players were either confused or just didn't like it. Failure is a tricky thing to work in and to get the player to accept.

#37
nicethugbert

nicethugbert
  • Members
  • 5 209 messages

Eguintir Eligard wrote...
 mitigate it somewhat but warning the player that only 2nd edition type weapons are available and not to waste feats on silly junk like kukris and scythes etc.


Silly weapons like Kukris and scythes?  One person's silly weapon is another jester's dastardly tickle implement.  I hope you spell out exactly which weapons are supported and how or else players will not understand you and experience discontent because of it.

#38
Eguintir Eligard

Eguintir Eligard
  • Members
  • 1 832 messages
By even saying anything I am far ahead of every other module which just randomly seems to pick 2 or 3 magic weapons and gives no warning whatsoever that your weapon focus on axes is a total waste.



That said I actually do spell out exactly every weapon that can be found.



That also said, I think a lot of players will experience a lot of discontent in my campaign ;)

#39
nimzar

nimzar
  • Members
  • 235 messages

Shaughn78 wrote...

I have found first hand that players do not like a quest that ends in failure.

The area I released for the SOZ holdiay expansion ended with the evil drow killing the paladin then escaping. Players were either confused or just didn't like it. Failure is a tricky thing to work in and to get the player to accept.


I don't have a problem with failure on principle. But you are correct in saying it is tricky to work in. 

In the OC of this game when you have to defend the keep, someone says (after a while of doing the event) that "We can't keep this up forever"  ...my party was so powerful at that point we probably could have held the keep for days.... I had a temple of Tyr on the grounds and any decent knight-captain would have ordered all the priests on Holy Water creation duty before the siege... My keep would have been OK for a good long while. So when they game has scripts where the defenses fall... I had a hard time believing that. The undead broke through the doors... at that point I started using Burning cloud/acid fog in that gateway. Only the occasion undead minion made it through that. And the Grey Cloak archers could take them out before they took 2 steps. I could have kept that up for at least a day in game time (with scrolls).

#40
BigfootNZ

BigfootNZ
  • Members
  • 131 messages

nimzar wrote...

I don't have a problem with failure on principle. But you are correct in saying it is tricky to work in. 


Not sure if thats what people really mean by failure using your example, that was deliberate failure to advance the story, I think whats being mentioned is failure where they player is expected to not fail. ie they go to retrieve an item from a powerful npc they have to get to advance the plot, but during the fight or negotiation they die or fail to convince them to give it up... rather than make the PC reload and try again, let them fail and continue the game with a chance of redeeming themselves from it rewarding them 'less' without rewarding them ie redemtion gives enough XP to level , while completing it first time rewards with material items they can only get from success... it helps break the break in immersion a reload can cause.

Tricky yes, but worth it... if the player complies :( although the player should always be made aware failure isnt true failure.

Modifié par BigfootNZ, 24 août 2010 - 08:25 .


#41
The Fred

The Fred
  • Members
  • 2 516 messages
This is not a drill soldier. Failure is not an option!

Shaughn78 wrote...

Gilradthegreat wrote...

The only issue with incorporating failure that I see, however, is that unless it is heavily scripted (see Conan Chronicles for an example of this), you're basically fighting against years of association and training from the player. In almost every game on the market, failing equates to restarting and trying not to fail. Even in popular games that take failures into account (Alpha Protocol), I found the urge to reload and not horribly fail like an amateur irresistible. Simply put, you can't expect most players to easily abandon such an ingrained idea lightly.



I have found first hand that players do not like a quest that ends in failure.

The area I released for the SOZ holdiay expansion ended with the evil drow killing the paladin then escaping. Players were either confused or just didn't like it. Failure is a tricky thing to work in and to get the player to accept.


As BigfootNZ said, there's a distinction between having to fail (which people hate) and being able to fail (which I think is good - some of the time).

#42
nimzar

nimzar
  • Members
  • 235 messages
Being able to fail is important I agree.... but why make something so binary as Success/Failure.

#43
The Fred

The Fred
  • Members
  • 2 516 messages
Well that's kind of the point (or at least one way of looking at it). Rather than "Oh, I won" or "Oh, I failed" it's more that you only partially failed, and so have a new way to get to the success.



On the other hand, a binary success/fail quest could open up a new quest if you failed which is relatively unrelated (i.e. you can never succeed in that quest, but you might get somewhere else - e.g. someone feels sorry for you, the baddy gets away with his evil plans but that rallies the support of nearby tribesmen, you fail to stop the time vortex opening but then get sent back in time which allows you to do another quest etc).

#44
nicethugbert

nicethugbert
  • Members
  • 5 209 messages
It need not be binary. It could be fuzzy. :)



If the PC fails then they can look for allies or mercenaries to help them succeed. Their new partners may have a corrupting influence. The PC may not notice the distinction in his zeal to succeed. So he may acquire his mark yet be excommunicated for the methods he took on advisement or terms from his allies in his quest to succeed. Many interesting possibilities.




#45
nimzar

nimzar
  • Members
  • 235 messages
There is actually a pretty good video on youtube... let me see if I can find it.



#46
nicethugbert

nicethugbert
  • Members
  • 5 209 messages
The issue of choices and problems and such has it's own topic now: http://social.biowar...7/index/4573692

Modifié par nicethugbert, 26 août 2010 - 01:26 .


#47
nimzar

nimzar
  • Members
  • 235 messages
Alright as the discussion on choices and failure is being continued elsewhere I guess I can try to provide a post to bring this topic back on track. I liked in (early)BG1 that finding a +1 weapon was actually a big deal (helped by the iron crisis situation).



I feel that I probably like Low Magic settings more than High Magic settings (though admittedly most of experience with Low Magic is early BG1). No Magic settings aren't very appealing to me (though if done well they could be... though any setting if done well enough will hold my attention at least a little).



The availability of magic casting classes throws a bit of a monkey-wrench into things though I feel. But punishing a player for choosing to play as Mage probably isn't a good solution (I'm just rambling design thoughts here). Limiting loot that is useful to mage might help a little but take it too far and you begin to fall into punishment territory. Limiting rest does help some (especially in the lower levels) but again limited too much can be too punishing even for non-casters but for casters doubly so.



So basically I like the idea of Low Magic setting but also recognize that they are somewhat hard to balance around casting classes especially at higher levels. (Think maybe 1 or 2 +2 weapons at level 15... but rendered kinda moot when you have a level 15 sorcerer with greater magic weapon).

#48
The Fred

The Fred
  • Members
  • 2 516 messages
In my campaign, I intend to keep the magic level very low, and I *do* intend to "punish" mages, to a degree - not because I dislike them, in fact I think Wizard is my favourite class, but because I'm trying to build a setting where organised magic is rare. There will probably be only one, central magical authority (think a little like Athkatla in BG2) and most other practitioners will be druids, sorcerers, witches and hedge-wizards. Scrolls and wands and things will be rare (though this might help make Craft Wand and Scribe Scroll more useful).



The issue I had is that without banning the class, players can still chose to be a Wizard, and they can still chose to have a Farmer or peasant background (I'm using the backgrounds more like DA origin stories), which then doesn't make much sense. So I have to make an extra bit just for peasant wizards (probably I will rationalise this by saying you were apprenticed to one of a small number of legal hedge wizards) - so I suppose you could say that Wizards are getting extra attention, rather than being punished. I do intend to discourage the playing of a Wizard, though, because it doesn't really fit the theme too well.



All of this just comes back to the fact that in a low-magic world, how come the player can be a wizard? Depending on your storyline, this might be fine (there must be some wizards, right?) but if it's a "You grew up all your life on a sleepy farm..." sort of story, it's not going to fit.



P.S. In a setting where magical weapons are readily available, (Greater) Magic Weapon is pretty much useless (or at least gets obselete pretty quickly), so it wouldn't be a bad thing if it got used now and then.

#49
nimzar

nimzar
  • Members
  • 235 messages
I think you are missing what I said about "punishing" mages. I said if your measures to limit them go too far then it seems like punishment rather than discouragement. If scrolls and wands are rare that is one thing. If they are non-existent (or almost non-existent) that is quite another.



I don't disagree that the magic weapon series of spell could stand to see more use. But I was using that spell to illustrate how mages and sorcerers become harder and harder to limit (and therefore balance in a low magic setting) as they grow in level. When Greater Magic Weapon first becomes available to a caster using it is a great investment it costs a spell that could otherwise be spent on another powerful effect (like say... fireball). But when (as in my example) a character is level 15, spending a casting of greater magic weapon (which then last 15 in game hours) does not eat too far into the spell budget. So if your desire to have a setting where even at level 15 magical equipment is limited this causes a problem.

#50
dunniteowl

dunniteowl
  • Members
  • 1 559 messages
As we're heading back on topic...

One thing I think that is missed a lot in these discussions, especially regarding magic and spells and classes, is that not everyone in the game world is going to be an adventurer or hero or villain of some sort. I think High Magic settings tend to trivialize the relative rarity of an actual Magic class in the sense that they (the designers) have become inured and desensitized to the overall paucity of mages and magical items, because, like in TV and the movies, they have been inundated by images and visions of magic so often. It's like the perception in the world of New York city being full of crime (or Los Angeles,)

People have become so flooded with the idea of magic that, well of course, there's a boatload of it out there. Even so, we get movies like Harry Potter (and the original stories, obviously) or The Golden Compass, Last Airbender, etc. where, honestly, in the overall scheme of things, it's a High Magic Setting, with relatively few people capable of actually acessing this magic, even though everyone knows of it and at least respects it.

This is the disconnect, I believe. The story tends to revolve around the characters who, in fact, can utilize all this magic, even in a world where magic is relatively rare (as opposed to ubiquitous as in Harry Potter or relatively so in the Last Airbender or the Golden Compass.) It's right up there with a car going over a cliff and then exploding (.001% of all auto crashes include fire and it's even smaller than that for those that explode [as in virtually non-existant,]) which is what we are most exposed to, because it's more exciting -- though it is the least common and rarest vehicular event.



So that Red Dragon Disciple, hanging with the Favored Soul and palling around with the Red Wizard of Thay should be something, even in Faerun, to send most people scuttling for the percieved safety of a closed and bolted door and shuttered windows. That's how it should be. And that's the first thing most folks forget. Even in Faerun, a High Magic setting, not everyone has access to magic and not all magical folk are looked up to with respect -- it's more like fear and awe (primary definition of awe: reverant fear) bordering on near hysteria.

Whether it's High Magic or Low Magic, in general, it's a relatively very small slice of the population pie that even has access to magic, unless it's High Magic, and High Fantasy. Low Magic is only one part of the total environmental formula for the setting.

Look at Lord of the Rings. High Fantasy (orcs, goblins, dragons, undead, save the world from everlasting evil, magic ring, swords, etc. oh, and of course, elves and mages) and Low Magic. Or Harry Potter, which is High Magic (while only a slice of the people have it, those that do congregate and make magic ubiquitous and accessible to nearly all) and High Fantasy. Then you have Low Fantasy and Low Magic, which is more on the order of the Mabonigian Cycle (Arthurian Legend) where it's gritty, real world stuff with occasional enchantments and spells and those that can do so are extremely rare, are feared (generally) and who tend to stay out of the limelight due to all those pitchforks and torches the common folks are so fond of when it comes to a meet and greet. And to cite an example of Low Fantasy and High Magic I would offer something on the order of the recent The Sorceror's Apprentice where only a very few even know magic is real and even less are even able to use it. (And of course, we are once again walking into a variation on the Mabonigian Cycle with it being directly tied into the Arthurian Legend of the Merlin and Morgana La Fey.)

So what does all this have to do with the topic? Well, it's a perception issue, really. That's the point. The trick comes in the delivery of the world. Even in a Low Magic setting with High Fantasy, is your magic ubiquitous or rare? How is that presented?

Then, also, how is it presented as a mechanic and how balanced is it in terms of gameplay? That's what's being asked here, really. And how do you, as a player or designer, respond to that in general?

Me? I don't care as long as it seems to play well within the framework of your setting and the gameplay seems to balance out -- not in that mages are worth their salt relative to non casters at any given level, mind -- as far as how well do the mechanics help to translate the actions of the playing into the framework of the story? A low level mage should be expected to be relatively easy pickings in melee -- that's why they have to rely on their brains and not their muscles. They have to be smart enough to use Grease to aid the melee types by holding off the scores of opposing melee types, or Magic Missile to disrupt the opposing spellcasters when possible, or to use their one decent area effect spell wisely to provide the greatest possible benefit to the party.

If that, on the whole balances out, then providing a low and rare magic setting would be fine. +1 and +2 weapons are fine, as far as that goes, but at level 15 a mage should be considered an awesome foe for any character to deal with. And higher than that, only other mages or very high level melee types should even remotely consider tangling with them. That's how it should be.

There's not a mage in every tower and they don't all have tons of books with spells in them and they certainly don't go out all that much, so when they do, watch out.

And if you're going to go up against one in a low magic setting, then you'd best be prepared to deal with that. As a player, I wouldn't mind experiencing a little vicarious thrill of fear as my party advances on the tower of the Evil Mage of Great Power, hoping that my few magic items, tactics, preparation and, hopefully, morally correct point of view, will allow me to prevail.

That's why they call me an Adventurer -- isn't it?

dunniteowl