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Your perception of Cerberus AFTER reading the "Retribution" novel.


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#1
Neuzhelin

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My question to fellow ME fans is whether their attitude towards TIM and/or the organisation as a whole has changed.

Also, would you still save or destroy the Collector Base AFTER knowing all the new facts about the backfiring reaper technology is pointed out as a great threat.

To clarify, I am not talking about roleplaying, I am talking about the most rational choice there is.

***SPOLIERS OF THE NOVEL BELOW***

Personally, I am still sceptical when it comes to the dangers of integrating technology of a reaper constructing base (not only indoctrinating but functioning as a trap) under the supervision of TIM. The project of Retribution backfired, revealing some of the most classified on Alliance to the Reapers because of a single experiment. A Cerberus cell working on something of Collector base proportions is not a risk I am willing to take.

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 20 août 2010 - 08:35 .


#2
MajesticJazz

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After reading the novel, it makes my Pro-Cerberus Shepard more appealing.




#3
Zulu_DFA

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No.

It's not a Cerberus project that backfired in Retribution. It's Anderson's treason and/or idiocy.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 20 août 2010 - 08:38 .


#4
Sailears

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It's difficult. There is a very small part of me that does feel what they tried to do was necessary; It may even pay off.

And yes, it was not Cerberus who blew it this time, it was the interference of Anderson.

But considering saving/destroying the base does not affect what happened there, I feel more comfortable with the paragon choice - they obvoiusly still have enough of the collector technology to perform a procedure like that, regardless of what Shepard does, so I don't feel it would be wise to provide them with the entire base (things might get out of hand).

Modifié par Curunen, 20 août 2010 - 09:56 .


#5
MadCat221

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Why did Anderson interfere?

Because of the reputation Cerberus has built up.

So it is still indirectly a Cerberus screw-up. The consequential reputation caused by their actions bit them in the butt.

If Cerberus took a STG-esque "Exhaust less extreme options first", then perhaps they would not have this image problem.

Modifié par MadCat221, 20 août 2010 - 11:16 .


#6
Count Viceroy

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Even if them turians hadn't wrecked the party, the hybrid would still have broken out on its own once it established full control.

#7
mosor

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Neuzhelin wrote...

My question to fellow ME fans is whether their attitude towards TIM and/or the organisation as a whole has changed.

Also, would you still save or destroy the Collector Base AFTER knowing all the new facts about the backfiring reaper technology is pointed out as a great threat.

To clarify, I am not talking about roleplaying, I am talking about the most rational choice there is.

***SPOLIERS OF THE NOVEL BELOW***

Personally, I am still sceptical when it comes to the dangers of integrating technology of a reaper constructing base (not only indoctrinating but functioning as a trap) under the supervision of TIM. The project of Retribution backfired, revealing some of the most classified on Alliance to the Reapers because of a single experiment. A Cerberus cell working on something of Collector base proportions is not a risk I am willing to take.


Wrong. Cerberus had it under control. They knew what to expect with Grayson and would have terminated him before he progressed that far.. The turians threw a monkey wrench by assaulting the base and releasing Grayson without quarantining him first. It was obvious to all but the blind something was wrong with Grayson but turians think with their gun more than their heads.

If anything my respect for cerberus has gone up and I'm more confident about my decision to keep the base then I was before. I'm just sad that cerberus is weaker now because of Anderson.

Modifié par mosor, 21 août 2010 - 12:13 .


#8
mosor

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MadCat221 wrote...

Why did Anderson interfere?

Because of the reputation Cerberus has built up.

So it is still indirectly a Cerberus screw-up. The consequential reputation caused by their actions bit them in the butt.

If Cerberus took a STG-esque "Exhaust less extreme options first", then perhaps they would not have this image problem.

That's just blaming the victim. As for STG, they have a habit of solving problems by creating bigger problems.

Modifié par mosor, 21 août 2010 - 12:29 .


#9
Jonesey2k

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In answer to question: Yes, for the worse.

#10
scotchtape622

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mosor wrote...

MadCat221 wrote...

Why did Anderson interfere?

Because of the reputation Cerberus has built up.

So it is still indirectly a Cerberus screw-up. The consequential reputation caused by their actions bit them in the butt.

If Cerberus took a STG-esque "Exhaust less extreme options first", then perhaps they would not have this image problem.

That's just blaming the victim. As for STG, they have a habit of solving problems by creating bigger problems.

lol, "the victim." I don't think Cerberus was the victim here.

#11
Giggles_Manically

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

No.

It's not a Cerberus project that backfired in Retribution. It's Anderson's treason and/or idiocy.


I dont agree with treason, but the idiocy yes.

Turning over jurisdiction to the military that works on the "NUKE IT FROM ORBIT" principal is dumb.
Then again everyone in this book seemed to have taken a dose of Derpy pills.

#12
mosor

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scotchtape622 wrote...

mosor wrote...

MadCat221 wrote...

Why did Anderson interfere?

Because of the reputation Cerberus has built up.

So it is still indirectly a Cerberus screw-up. The consequential reputation caused by their actions bit them in the butt.

If Cerberus took a STG-esque "Exhaust less extreme options first", then perhaps they would not have this image problem.

That's just blaming the victim. As for STG, they have a habit of solving problems by creating bigger problems.

lol, "the victim." I don't think Cerberus was the victim here.


Of course they were. They were a victim of turian agression outside their space where they have no juristiction! :D

#13
Count Viceroy

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The book just reinforced the impression I already had. Tim is bad, and as much as he likes to think he's the only way forward for humanity, he's horribly mistaken.

#14
Arijharn

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Count Viceroy wrote...

The book just reinforced the impression I already had. Tim is bad, and as much as he likes to think he's the only way forward for humanity, he's horribly mistaken.


Of course your perception hasn't changed... your perception wouldn't change even if TIM started an orphanage and rescued animals, you'd think "Geez, there has to be something TIM is getting out of this. What's his angle?"

#15
Zulu_DFA

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Arijharn wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

The book just reinforced the impression I already had. Tim is bad, and as much as he likes to think he's the only way forward for humanity, he's horribly mistaken.


Of course your perception hasn't changed... your perception wouldn't change even if TIM started an orphanage and rescued animals, you'd think "Geez, there has to be something TIM is getting out of this. What's his angle?"

Nightwriter wrote...

arguments for or on behalf of Cerberus will not be taken until they negotiate the release of the
kittehs.



fixed

#16
Zulu_DFA

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Giggles_Manically wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

No.

It's not a Cerberus project that backfired in Retribution. It's Anderson's treason and/or idiocy.


I dont agree with treason, but the idiocy yes.


It doesn't really matter which. Traitors are rarely idiots themselves, but they always employ the services of idiots, that the latter always readily provide.

#17
Neuzhelin

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Wrong. Cerberus had it under control. They knew what to expect with Grayson and would have terminated him before he progressed that far.. The turians threw a monkey wrench by assaulting the base and releasing Grayson without quarantining him first. It was obvious to all but the blind something was wrong with Grayson but turians think with their gun more than their heads.

If anything my respect for cerberus has gone up and I'm more confident about my decision to keep the base then I was before. I'm just sad that cerberus is weaker now because of Anderson.


Hence, I started with words "personally". Nevertheless, it is funny how different views can be. To address some of your points:

1) No, they did not know what to expect and, terminating Grayson was recommended to TIM asap, instead he pushed it to 3 more days,
2) The fact that TIM was personal with Grayson is what started the whole mess. The vengeance and hate is what gave the Cerberus info to the turians. Grayson even warned TIM about it in the end of Ascension.
3) The base was undermanned. A few professionals, some trained personell and the rest were scientists. It is as much speculation to say it would have been under control as it is to say Grayson would have escaped on his own. (a barrier here, a singularity there followed by some AI aiming with dual assault rifles against relatively few Cerberus personell)
4) If Cerberus tourtures (even children), attacks flotillas, kidnaps Alliance admirals and performs experiments that make me hard to differentiate them from the Reapers, openly admits to xenophobia and human dominance as their policty (to name a few) it is only a question of time before a counter attack occurs. There would have been an Anderson sooner or later.
And, most importantly:
5) We can not know what would have happened without Anderson's interference. We can guess, we can speculate and theorize. What we do know is: because of another failed Cerberus experiment: the Reapers slaughtered their way through the galaxy, wrecking havoc and gathering new data on the organic life bringing them closer to their goal.

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 21 août 2010 - 09:53 .


#18
Kronner

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I agree, I rather destroy the base than leave it in the hands of completly ruthless egotistical madman TIM is.

#19
krimesh

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I agree with Neuzhelin. To answer the original question, no, reading the book did not change my opinion on Cerberus. Cerberus have proven often enough that they are messing with things they are not qualified for. Various ME side-missions show that. Not very long before making the Collector-Base decision we become witnesses of yet another Cerberus failure, this time directly connected to the reapers: the team on the derelict reaper. True, they did secure the IFF, but they did not get it out. Instead they stayed and tried to get more out of the reaper. In consequence everything was lost and Shepard had to recover the IFF him/herself.

The argument that Cerberus are doing what is necessary, doesn't work for me. As Neuzhelin pointed out there is not much difference between them and the reapers. Cerberus is just another form of the same thing.

It is up for everyone to decide, if they like the form of perfection the reapers offer, or if they think that the human race should exploit reaper tech to get there themselves, on their own terms, and subduing the other races, just as the reapers did. I for one think that neither is a good a idea.



ME is really about a war between those 3 main points of view. And Shepard may chose his side between two of them, so it is not surprising (though interesting to observe) that we get both types of opinions in here.

#20
Asheer_Khan

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My perception of cerberus was forged in ME 1 and ME 2 did nothing to change that stance.



Now when Miranda is on my Shepard's side i hope ME 3 will give me a chance (however i will be veeeery surprised if this will happened) to hunt down tim and use my Spectre status in full extend, and of course kai's fate is also sealed... (i hope Aria will deal with him properly...)

#21
krimesh

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Kronner wrote...

I agree, I rather destroy the base than leave it in the hands of completly ruthless egotistical madman TIM is.


Nah, I don't think TIM is egoistic. Actually I think that he is everything but. In my opinion Samara got it quite right, when she said that TIM isn't as wise as he thinks he is.

#22
krimesh

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Asheer_Khan wrote...

My perception of cerberus was forged in ME 1 and ME 2 did nothing to change that stance.

Now when Miranda is on my Shepard's side i hope ME 3 will give me a chance (however i will be veeeery surprised if this will happened) to hunt down tim and use my Spectre status in full extend, and of course kai's fate is also sealed... (i hope Aria will deal with him properly...)


I played ME 2 before ME 1. That showed to me very clearly (as it worked on me the first time around), how everything Cerberus in ME 2 is just a ploy to get Shepard on board. Look at the crew: former Alliance who left because of Shepard, Kelly, the alien lover... they are not real Cerberus.

And about the second part: yes, having a destroy cerberus DLC was my greatest longing while reading Retribution, although I realize how unlikely that is. Doesn't seem to fit into the scheme of things.

Modifié par krimesh, 21 août 2010 - 10:12 .


#23
Neuzhelin

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I played ME 2 before ME 1. That showed to me very clearly (as it worked on me the first time around), how everything Cerberus in ME 2 is just a ploy to get Shepard on board. Look at the crew: former Alliance who left because of Shepard, Kelly, the alien lover... they are not real Cerberus.

And about the second part: yes, having a destroy cerberus DLC was my greatest longing while reading Retribution, although I realize how unlikely that is. Doesn't seem to fit into the scheme of things.


I certainly hope for an option of unification instead of destruction. Ultimately, there are many skilled and useful people like Jacob and Miranda that can be pursuaded to leave Cerberus and do their part in the good fight.

#24
krimesh

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Neuzhelin wrote...

I certainly hope for an option of unification instead of destruction. Ultimately, there are many skilled and useful people like Jacob and Miranda that can be pursuaded to leave Cerberus and do their part in the good fight.


I agree, Cerberus personnel should be salvaged, if possible. However the institution has to be destroyed. There was discussion about whose fault it was that Greyson got out, but thats not the point. It is absolutely clear whose fault it was that he was implanted, involuntarily, with reaper tech in the first place, and that is, in my point of view, the wrong thing to do, no matter what.
Cerberus may have many good people, like Kelly or Ken and Gabby, Miranda or Jacob. But they also have people like Kai Leng and Pel, and these are the people the organization is really build on.

Modifié par krimesh, 21 août 2010 - 10:30 .


#25
Zulu_DFA

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Neuzhelin wrote...

1) No, they did not know what to expect and, terminating Grayson was recommended to TIM asap, instead he pushed it to 3 more days,
2) The fact that TIM was personal with Grayson is what started the whole mess. The vengeance and hate is what gave the Cerberus info to the turians. Grayson even warned TIM about it in the end of Ascension.
3) The base was undermanned. A few professionals, some trained personell and the rest were scientists. It is as much speculation to say it would have been under control as it is to say Grayson would have escaped on his own. (a barrier here, a singularity there followed by some AI aiming with dual assault rifles against relatively few Cerberus personell)
4) If Cerberus tourtures (even children), attacks flotillas, kidnaps Alliance admirals and performs experiments that make me hard to differentiate them from the Reapers, openly admits to xenophobia and human dominance as their policty (to name a few) it is only a question of time before a counter attack occurs. There would have been an Anderson sooner or later.
And, most importantly:
5) We can not know what would have happened without Anderson's interference. We can guess, we can speculate and theorize. What we do know is: because of another failed Cerberus experiment: the Reapers slaughtered their way through the galaxy, wrecking havoc and gathering new data on the organic life bringing them closer to their goal.



1. Well, TIM should have ordered to cut Grayson's arms and legs off, before the Repear substance was injected in him, but that would make too short a novel.

2. Everyone is entitled to little luxuries of life, such as revenge. But who else would make a better subject for a presumably lethal experiment, than a traitor. It was sort of redemption for Grayson, that even in his treason he served Cerberus.

3. Again, it was hasty (if not poor) writhing on Drew's part. Grayson just had to hit the "anykey" and BAM! Cerberus fried... That not how things work. The most interesting part in all this story remained untold - namely how was such a security leak possible, when after Grayson's defection TIM must have ordered a thourough review of all possible information on Cerberus that could have been available to him. This commends Grayson as having been an extremely resourceful individual, who managed to fool the whole of Cerberus, but how, damnit how?

4.1. If you can't see the the difference between Cerberus and the Reapers, then you should check your head. Something may be very wrong with it. If anything you let your emotions get ahead of your reason.
4.2. There is a huge difference between dominance (which TIM admits as Cerberus goal) and xenophobia (which TIM does not admit, so you are twisting the facts here). Dominance is when you tell other people what to do instead of being told what to do by other people. If that was xenophobia, then we should call the US as an extremely xenophobic state.
4.3. And, the matter of fact is, there is nothing wrong with xenophobia, just like there is nothing wrong with greed or lust. Xenophobia is the natural instinct to kill an alien on sight, just like greed is the natural instinct to acquire valuables possessed by others at once and lust is the natural instinct to rape an attractive female on sight. But even baboons don't behave like that. Civilized human societies have complex systems of moral, legal, educational and law enforcement measures to (attention!) capitalize on those instincts. Not by replacing the chaos of bella omnia contra omnes by the chaos of nothing, but by organizing the said instincts to work in an orderly and progressive fashion. And that's not a result of the work of reason as many want to believe, but of another instinct. Humans are social animals, so, to make this short, you can lay your fears to rest: TIM does not want to destroy the "galactic community", he wants it to be reorganized to suit Humans' needs.

5. What we can is to state the fact: we indeed don't know what would happen without Anderson's interference, but as it were, without any theorizing, "the Reapers slaughtered their way through the galaxy, wrecking havoc and gathering new data on the organic life bringing them closer to their goal" as the immediate result of Anderson's interference, just as plain simple as that.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 août 2010 - 12:17 .