231 réponses à ce sujet

[Lisa_H]

krimesh wrote...

I played ME 2 before ME 1. That showed to me very clearly (as it worked on me the first time around), how everything Cerberus in ME 2 is just a ploy to get Shepard on board. Look at the crew: former Alliance who left because of Shepard, Kelly, the alien lover... they are not real Cerberus.

This was my thought as well when I played ME2 for the first time. I just sat there thinking how they tried to seduce my Shep with the fine new Normany, a nice crew, her old pilot and doctor. I guess they tried a bit to hard though since at the end my Shep blew the base up and walked away from Cerberus with a crew now completely loyal to her.  I agree with people saying that what Cerberus does is to similar to the reapers. You should not become what you try to stop.

[Sparda Stonerule]

All I can say is that after reading Retribution my opinion didn't change very much. I don't really trust Cerberus, but I don't hate them. I think in some instances they go to far but in some cases they are necessary. I know Cerberus doesn't want to kill all aliens, but I do know that they would like to hold power over them. That's probably not a good thing.



My view on Cerberus is that they do see the danger coming, and they want to stop it. No other organization is doing anything about it. Cerberus may be slightly misguided, but we need them. We don't need them in power but we do need Cerberus in general. I would never want them in power, because then they probably would go over the top and start killing their own people to do experiments. So I guess I'm kind of neutral on the whole affair.

[Zulu_DFA]

Lisa_H wrote...

krimesh wrote...

I played ME 2 before ME 1. That showed to me very clearly (as it worked on me the first time around), how everything Cerberus in ME 2 is just a ploy to get Shepard on board. Look at the crew: former Alliance who left because of Shepard, Kelly, the alien lover... they are not real Cerberus.

This was my thought as well when I played ME2 for the first time. I just sat there thinking how they tried to seduce my Shep with the fine new Normany, a nice crew, her old pilot and doctor. I guess they tried a bit to hard though since at the end my Shep blew the base up and walked away from Cerberus with a crew now completely loyal to her.  I agree with people saying that what Cerberus does is to similar to the reapers. You should not become what you try to stop.

Don't worry, though. I'm sure TIM's going to omit this little goof of yours with a potentially invaluable asset, and his huge successes with bringing you back to from the dead, and stopping the Collectors, and recovering the tech and team records from the Derelict Reaper, and what not, will still look great in his annual report to his major contributors, so he'll get a doubled funding for 2187.

[krimesh]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. Well, TIM should have ordered to cut Grayson's arms and legs off, before the Repear substance was injected in him, but that would make too short a novel.

2. Everyone is entitled to little luxuries of life, such as revenge. But who else would make a better subject for a presumably fatal experiment, than a traitor. It was sort of redemption for Grayson, that even ih his treason he served Cerberus.

3. Again, it was hasty (if not poor) writhing on Drew's part. Grayson just had to hit the "anykey" and BAM! Cerberus fried... That not how things work. The most interesting part in all this story remained untold - namely how was such a security leak possible, when after Graysons defection TIM must have ordered a thourough review of all possible information on Cerberus that could have been available to him. This commends Grayson as having been an extremely resourceful individual, who managed to fool the whole of Cerberus, but how, damnit how?

4.1. If you can't see the whe difference between Cerberus and the Reapers, then you should check our head. Something may be very wrong with it. If anything you let your emotions get ahead of your reason.
4.2. There is a huge difference between dominance (which TIM admits as Cerberus goal) and xenophobia (which TIM does not admit, so you are twisting the facts here). Dominance is when you tell other people what to do instead of being told what to do by other people. If that was xenophobia, then we should call the US as an extremely xenophobic state.
4.3. And, the matter of fact is, there is nothing wrong with xenophobia, just like there is nothing wrong with greed or lust. Xenophobia is the natural instinct to kill an alien on sight, just like greed is the natural instinct to acquire valuables possessed by others at once and lust is the natural instinct to rape an attractive female on sight. But even baboons don't behave like that. Civilized human societies have complex systems of moral, legal, educational and law enforcement measures to (attention!) capitalize on those instincts. Not by replacing the chaos of bella omnia contra omnes by the chaos of nothing, but by organizing the said instincts to work in an orderly and progressive fashion. And that's not a result of the work of reason as many want to believe, but of another instinct. Humans are social animals, so, to make this short, you can lay your fears to rest: TIM does not want to destroy the "galactic community" he just wants it to be reorganized to suit Humans' needs.

5. What we can to is to state the fact: we indeed don't know what would happen without Anderson's interference, but as it were, without any theorizing, "the Reapers slaughtered their way through the galaxy, wrecking havoc and gathering new data on the organic life bringing them closer to their goal" as the immediate result of Anderson's interference, just as plain simple as that.

Ad 1.: The reapers would not have accepted him as a host then. Or they might have grown him new ones.
Ad 2.: Thats form Cerberus point of view. Someone else might put this "treason" under "the only sensible thing to do"
Ad 4.1.: Well, both are ready to sacrifice humans to  reach "perfection". the reapers destroy life as it is to gain something for them selves and so does Cerberus.
Ad 4.2.: Actually Xenophobia is what TIM uses to control people, among other things. It's how he recruits his blunt instruments. And when you are talking about dominance.. well the decline of dominance has come hand in hand with the rise of our abilities as a hole race. The maximum might of the galactic community will be gained in synergy, not dominance of one person, organization or race.
Ad 4.3.: Just because something is an instinct, it doesn't mean its not wrong to act on it. Which you sort of said yourself, so I don't see your point.

[Asheer_Khan]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Neuzhelin wrote...

1) No, they did not know what to expect and, terminating Grayson was recommended to TIM asap, instead he pushed it to 3 more days,
2) The fact that TIM was personal with Grayson is what started the whole mess. The vengeance and hate is what gave the Cerberus info to the turians. Grayson even warned TIM about it in the end of Ascension.
3) The base was undermanned. A few professionals, some trained personell and the rest were scientists. It is as much speculation to say it would have been under control as it is to say Grayson would have escaped on his own. (a barrier here, a singularity there followed by some AI aiming with dual assault rifles against relatively few Cerberus personell)
4) If Cerberus tourtures (even children), attacks flotillas, kidnaps Alliance admirals and performs experiments that make me hard to differentiate them from the Reapers, openly admits to xenophobia and human dominance as their policty (to name a few) it is only a question of time before a counter attack occurs. There would have been an Anderson sooner or later.
And, most importantly:
5) We can not know what would have happened without Anderson's interference. We can guess, we can speculate and theorize. What we do know is: because of another failed Cerberus experiment: the Reapers slaughtered their way through the galaxy, wrecking havoc and gathering new data on the organic life bringing them closer to their goal.

1. Well, TIM should have ordered to cut Grayson's arms and legs off, before the Repear substance was injected in him, but that would make too short a novel.

2. Everyone is entitled to little luxuries of life, such as revenge. But who else would make a better subject for a presumably lethal experiment, than a traitor. It was sort of redemption for Grayson, that even in his treason he served Cerberus.

3. Again, it was hasty (if not poor) writhing on Drew's part. Grayson just had to hit the "anykey" and BAM! Cerberus fried... That not how things work. The most interesting part in all this story remained untold - namely how was such a security leak possible, when after Grayson's defection TIM must have ordered a thourough review of all possible information on Cerberus that could have been available to him. This commends Grayson as having been an extremely resourceful individual, who managed to fool the whole of Cerberus, but how, damnit how?

4.1. If you can't see the whe difference between Cerberus and the Reapers, then you should check our head. Something may be very wrong with it. If anything you let your emotions get ahead of your reason.
4.2. There is a huge difference between dominance (which TIM admits as Cerberus goal) and xenophobia (which TIM does not admit, so you are twisting the facts here). Dominance is when you tell other people what to do instead of being told what to do by other people. If that was xenophobia, then we should call the US as an extremely xenophobic state.
4.3. And, the matter of fact is, there is nothing wrong with xenophobia, just like there is nothing wrong with greed or lust. Xenophobia is the natural instinct to kill an alien on sight, just like greed is the natural instinct to acquire valuables possessed by others at once and lust is the natural instinct to rape an attractive female on sight. But even baboons don't behave like that. Civilized human societies have complex systems of moral, legal, educational and law enforcement measures to (attention!) capitalize on those instincts. Not by replacing the chaos of bella omnia contra omnes by the chaos of nothing, but by organizing the said instincts to work in an orderly and progressive fashion. And that's not a result of the work of reason as many want to believe, but of another instinct. Humans are social animals, so, to make this short, you can lay your fears to rest: TIM does not want to destroy the "galactic community", he wants it to be reorganized to suit Humans' needs.

5. What we can is to state the fact: we indeed don't know what would happen without Anderson's interference, but as it were, without any theorizing, "the Reapers slaughtered their way through the galaxy, wrecking havoc and gathering new data on the organic life bringing them closer to their goal" as the immediate result of Anderson's interference, just as plain simple as that.

Wow... just wow... your pro cerberus fanatism level is astonishing....<_<

[krimesh]

Lisa_H wrote...

krimesh wrote...

I played ME 2 before ME 1. That showed to me very clearly (as it worked on me the first time around), how everything Cerberus in ME 2 is just a ploy to get Shepard on board. Look at the crew: former Alliance who left because of Shepard, Kelly, the alien lover... they are not real Cerberus.

This was my thought as well when I played ME2 for the first time. I just sat there thinking how they tried to seduce my Shep with the fine new Normany, a nice crew, her old pilot and doctor. I guess they tried a bit to hard though since at the end my Shep blew the base up and walked away from Cerberus with a crew now completely loyal to her.  I agree with people saying that what Cerberus does is to similar to the reapers. You should not become what you try to stop.

I blew the hole thing up even without ME 1 and even though I sort of trusted Cerberus at the time. They didn't manage a dead reaper. What the hell made TIM think they would be able to make a tour to a reaper maternity clinic end any better? Besides the thought of them using it conjured up a picture not unlike Redemption even then. To reiterate, I think Samara gets it just right, when you talk to her after blowing the damn thing to hell.

[Neuzhelin]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. Well, TIM should have ordered to cut Grayson's arms and legs off, before the Repear substance was injected in him, but that would make too short a novel.

2. Everyone is entitled to little luxuries of life, such as revenge. But who else would make a better subject for a presumably lethal experiment, than a traitor. It was sort of redemption for Grayson, that even in his treason he served Cerberus.

3. Again, it was hasty (if not poor) writhing on Drew's part. Grayson just had to hit the "anykey" and BAM! Cerberus fried... That not how things work. The most interesting part in all this story remained untold - namely how was such a security leak possible, when after Grayson's defection TIM must have ordered a thourough review of all possible information on Cerberus that could have been available to him. This commends Grayson as having been an extremely resourceful individual, who managed to fool the whole of Cerberus, but how, damnit how?

4.1. If you can't see the whe difference between Cerberus and the Reapers, then you should check our head. Something may be very wrong with it. If anything you let your emotions get ahead of your reason.
4.2. There is a huge difference between dominance (which TIM admits as Cerberus goal) and xenophobia (which TIM does not admit, so you are twisting the facts here). Dominance is when you tell other people what to do instead of being told what to do by other people. If that was xenophobia, then we should call the US as an extremely xenophobic state.
4.3. And, the matter of fact is, there is nothing wrong with xenophobia, just like there is nothing wrong with greed or lust. Xenophobia is the natural instinct to kill an alien on sight, just like greed is the natural instinct to acquire valuables possessed by others at once and lust is the natural instinct to rape an attractive female on sight. But even baboons don't behave like that. Civilized human societies have complex systems of moral, legal, educational and law enforcement measures to (attention!) capitalize on those instincts. Not by replacing the chaos of bella omnia contra omnes by the chaos of nothing, but by organizing the said instincts to work in an orderly and progressive fashion. And that's not a result of the work of reason as many want to believe, but of another instinct. Humans are social animals, so, to make this short, you can lay your fears to rest: TIM does not want to destroy the "galactic community", he wants it to be reorganized to suit Humans' needs.

5. What we can is to state the fact: we indeed don't know what would happen without Anderson's interference, but as it were, without any theorizing, "the Reapers slaughtered their way through the galaxy, wrecking havoc and gathering new data on the organic life bringing them closer to their goal" as the immediate result of Anderson's interference, just as plain simple as that.

1) TIM pushed it when it was not needed. He jeopardized the project. His personal feelings clouded his judgement to the point where he was about to die/be captured. It was unprofessional and yet charachteristical of Cerberus as a whole.

2) You present xenophobia as something natural. Well defending ones offspring (Gillian) and himself are the two primal objectives of a life, Grayson's. TIM pushed Grayson when he shouldn't have, revealing classified data all because of a petty grudge. Highly unprofessional and shortsighted - luxuries a man of his status should know are fatal.

3) That is how a powerful reaper biotic controlled by the most sophisticated AI known works. It is ME universe. The point of #3 was that escape was inevitable, not arguing the Cerberus mistakes. Argue all you want for what you think Cerberus should be. That doesn't change the way the ME writers make it to be.

4.1) Add hominem and bad argumentation there. If Cerberus is a human equivalent of the Reapers (which they are on the way to become), the fight is futile and counter productive.
4.2) I did not say they were equal. Cerberus and TIM have a dangerous mix of Xenophobia and Dominance/Domineering.
4.3)  Xenophobia might have been rational 40.000 years ago when humans lived it tribes of 50-100 in order to survive. In the ME universe alienation from the Gallactic Community is counterproductive and short sighted and that is exactly what cerberus does.
The point of #4 was that blaming Anderson or Grayson is irrelevant as it is the morally bankrupt organisation itself that is the problem as in TIM is digging his own and humanities grave. I suggest reading the post you quoted again.
5) You can spin the facts around all you want. Blaming Anderson instead of TIM for another Cerberus failure now with Reaper technology is like blaming Saren for the Reapers as it would have happened sooner or later.  Cerberus pissed off the whole galaxy (not only Alliance) and started paying for it. The fact remains: another failed Cerberus project because of insufficient security, TIM's personal emotions ( revenge, anger and hate) and unprofessionalism, now resulting in a small reaper victory and a lot of lost lives.

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 21 août 2010 - 11:32 .

[Zulu_DFA]

krimesh wrote...
Ad 4.2.: Actually Xenophobia is what TIM uses to control people, among other things. It's how he recruits his blunt instruments. And when you are talking about dominance.. well the decline of dominance has come hand in hand with the rise of our abilities as a hole race. The maximum might of the galactic community will be gained in synergy, not dominance of one person, organization or race.

There is nothing wrong with paying xenophobic people for the services they provide. Otherwise, it would be discrimination against xenophobic people.

And when you talk about synergy, I am not sure you understand what you are talking about. There "rise of abilities" is achieved only through concentration of power (to which dominance, which implies strong hierarchy, usually contributes).

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And when you talk about synergy, I am not sure you understand what you are talking about. There "rise of abilities" is achieved only through concentration of power (to which dominance, which implies strong hierarchy, usually contributes).

Non-sequitr. Power =/= dominance. Multiple parties can join in willfully without a hierarchy and contribute.

[krimesh]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

There is nothing wrong with paying xenophobic people for the services they provide. Otherwise, it would be discrimination against xenophobic people.

And when you talk about synergy, I am not sure you understand what you are talking about. There "rise of abilities" is achieved only through concentration of power (to which dominance, which implies strong hierarchy, usually contributes).

I did not say that there was something wrong with it. It's just that people who follow an emotion so very fanatically, aren't exactly useful to arguing why humanity should dominate anyone.

Undoubtedly to efficiently use the abilities you have, there needs to be a chain of command. But improvements to those abilities are usually best made in cooperation. And so are decisions on how to use them. True, political parties for instance, often have trouble to get things done; they just argue a lot. But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be different opinions at the start of a decision process. Its simply that they didn't master the art of forming a consensus just yet.

[Solaris Paradox]

I haven't read Retribution, but I'm curious if it supports my perception of Cerberus... which is that they are a well-intentioned group of people that proves the old saying about the road to hell being paved in good intentions. And that their methods are crumby and I wouldn't want a people-processing plant falling into their hands.

[Zulu_DFA]

Neuzhelin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. Well, TIM should have ordered to cut Grayson's arms and legs off, before the Repear substance was injected in him, but that would make too short a novel.

2. Everyone is entitled to little luxuries of life, such as revenge. But who else would make a better subject for a presumably lethal experiment, than a traitor. It was sort of redemption for Grayson, that even in his treason he served Cerberus.

3. Again, it was hasty (if not poor) writhing on Drew's part. Grayson just had to hit the "anykey" and BAM! Cerberus fried... That not how things work. The most interesting part in all this story remained untold - namely how was such a security leak possible, when after Grayson's defection TIM must have ordered a thourough review of all possible information on Cerberus that could have been available to him. This commends Grayson as having been an extremely resourceful individual, who managed to fool the whole of Cerberus, but how, damnit how?

4.1. If you can't see the the difference between Cerberus and the Reapers, then you should check your head. Something may be very wrong with it. If anything, you let your emotions get ahead of your reason.
4.2. There is a huge difference between dominance (which TIM admits as Cerberus goal) and xenophobia (which TIM does not admit, so you are twisting the facts here). Dominance is when you tell other people what to do instead of being told what to do by other people. If that was xenophobia, then we should call the US as an extremely xenophobic state.
4.3. And, the matter of fact is, there is nothing wrong with xenophobia, just like there is nothing wrong with greed or lust. Xenophobia is the natural instinct to kill an alien on sight, just like greed is the natural instinct to acquire valuables possessed by others at once and lust is the natural instinct to rape an attractive female on sight. But even baboons don't behave like that. Civilized human societies have complex systems of moral, legal, educational and law enforcement measures to (attention!) capitalize on those instincts. Not by replacing the chaos of bella omnia contra omnes by the chaos of nothing, but by organizing the said instincts to work in an orderly and progressive fashion. And that's not a result of the work of reason as many want to believe, but of another instinct. Humans are social animals, so, to make this short, you can lay your fears to rest: TIM does not want to destroy the "galactic community", he wants it to be reorganized to suit Humans' needs.

5. What we can is to state the fact: we indeed don't know what would happen without Anderson's interference, but as it were, without any theorizing, "the Reapers slaughtered their way through the galaxy, wrecking havoc and gathering new data on the organic life bringing them closer to their goal" as the immediate result of Anderson's interference, just as plain simple as that.

1) TIM pushed it when it was not needed. He jeopartized the project. His personal feelings clouded his judgement to the point where he was about to die/be captured. It was unprofessional and yet charachteristic of Cerberus as a whole.

2) You present xenophobia as something natural. Well defending ones offspring (Gillian) and himself are the two primal objectives of a life, Grayson's. TIM pushed Grayson when he shouldn't have, revealing classified data all because of a petty grudge. Highly unprofessional and shortsighted - luxuries a man of his status should know are fatal.

3) That is how a powerful reaper biotic controlled by the most sophisticated AI known works. It is ME universe. The point of #3 was that escape was inevitable, not arguing the Cerberus mistakes. Argue all you want for what you want Cerberus to be that doesn't change the way the ME writers make it to be.

4.1) Add hominem and bad argumentation there. If Cerberus is a human equivalent of the Reapers (which they are on the way to become), the fight is futile and counter productive.
4.2) I did not say they were equal. Cerberus and TIM have a dangerous mix of Xenophobia and Dominance/Domineering.
4.3)  Xenophobia might have been rational 40.000 years ago when humans lived it tribes of 50-100 in order to survive. In the ME universe alienation from the Gallactic Community is counterproductive and short sighted and that is exactly what cerberus does.
The point of #4 was that blaming Anderson or Grayson is irrelevant as it is the morally bankrupt organisation itself that is the problem as in TIM is digging his own and humanities grave. I suggest reading the post you quoted again.
5) You can spin the facts around all you want. Blaming Anderson instead of TIM for another Cerberus failure now with Reaper technology is like blaming Saren for the Reapers as it would have happened sooner or later.  Cerberus pissed off the whole galaxy (not only Alliance) and started paying for it. The fact remains: another failed Cerberus project because of insufficient security, TIM's personal emotions ( revenge, anger and hate) and unprofessionalism, now resulting in a small reaper victory and a lot of lost lives.

1. High risk - high reward. He was totally unaware of the security leak that jeopardized the project. But even the author of the book seems "unaware" of it, since it's not even hinted at what that security leak was.

2. I present xenophobia as something that should be controlled in a well-organized society. So should the defending of one's offspring... (lol, hwut? Gillian was adopted! on TIM's orders!!!)

3. The escape was inevitable, since it was the author's plan. Just like every Cerberus f*ckup in the ME series. I'm OK with the author's rigth to do whatever they want with their creations, but don't push this forward as something that's "ineviatable" in-universe.

4.1. Even if they are on the way there, they are not yet there. You fight one battle at a time anyway, or you lose them all. Be reasonable.
4.2. That's a heavily opinionated statement, from any angle you look at it.
4.3. Xenophobia was never rational. In the ME universe TIM does not want to alienate himself and Humanity from the aliens. He wants to dominate them. Rule them. For the betterment of the greater hole. Not rational intent either, just social instinct. (All puns intended.)

5.  You can spin the facts around all you want. Blaming TIM instead of Anderson for another Cerberus failure now with Reaper technology is like blaming the Reapers for Saren's treason as it was Saren's free will that sealed his fate. Cerberus pissed off the Council races except the Alliance, that Anderson can not trust in his anti-Cerberus quest and started paying for it the price, that TIM is willing to pay as many times as necessary to achieve his goals. The fact remains: another successful Cerberus project that cost a lot of collateral damage due to another Alliance admiral's treason/idiocy.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 août 2010 - 01:49 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Since I skimmed the early part, how exactly did Greyson's stuff get sent to Sanders?

I think it was sent when he was nabbed, but how did it work?

[Zulu_DFA]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Since I skimmed the early part, how exactly did Greyson's stuff get sent to Sanders?
I think it was sent when he was nabbed, but how did it work?

Like everything in ME universe nowadays...

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Since I skimmed the early part, how exactly did Greyson's stuff get sent to Sanders?
I think it was sent when he was nabbed, but how did it work?

He emailed a copy of all of his data to the magical KAHLEE SANDERP

[krimesh]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Since I skimmed the early part, how exactly did Greyson's stuff get sent to Sanders?
I think it was sent when he was nabbed, but how did it work?

*RETRIBUTION SPOILERS*

Grayson had two messages prepared several years before, since he was expecting that Cerberus might find him sooner or later. One contained all the material he had on Cerberus, the other was to explain that in the event of it being sent, Cerberus had found him, and he was probably dead. All he had to do, when they stormed his apartment was to press SEND. (Kahlee was the only one he trusted, so she was the recipient.)

As to how Grayson got all the info on Cerberus: while reading Retribution I assumed that he must have done background research on all Cerberus agents and activities he had to do with, thus gathering a far greater knowledge of Cerberus operations, than he was supposed to have. And he was one of the finer instruments TIM had, so apparently he got applied a lot.

Modifié par krimesh, 21 août 2010 - 12:25 .

[Voutsis1982]

He was also a pilot. Grayson's duties could have included moving Cerberus personnel, equipment and supplies from A to B, putting him in a good position to know where A and B were.

[Solaris Paradox]

Lisa_H wrote...

This was my thought as well when I played ME2 for the first time. I just sat there thinking how they tried to seduce my Shep with the fine new Normany, a nice crew, her old pilot and doctor. I guess they tried a bit to hard though since at the end my Shep blew the base up and walked away from Cerberus with a crew now completely loyal to her.  I agree with people saying that what Cerberus does is to similar to the reapers. You should not become what you try to stop.

It's not quite right to say that Kelly the "alien-lover" isn't real Cerberus, per se. Miranda, at one point, mentions that Cerberus needs more people like Shepard because a lot of people join it out of simple xenophobia. It's more a case of Kelly being a representative of what Cerberus could be, but being more in the minority within the organization.

The Illusive Man's mission report on the mission-completed screen at the end of Garrus's recruitment mission does hint at his conscious knowledge that putting familiar people on Shepard's team might make Shepard more comfortable, mind, so I'm not saying his providing Shepard with the Normandy, Joker, or Dr. Chakwas wasn't a manipulation of sorts.

[Zulu_DFA]

Solaris Paradox wrote...
I'm not saying his providing Shepard with the Normandy, Joker, or Dr. Chakwas wasn't a manipulation of sorts.

Don't forget about Kelly herself, and of course, the Priiize...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 août 2010 - 01:28 .

[krimesh]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

4.3. Xenophobia was never rational. In the ME universe TIM does not want to alienate himself and Humanity from the aliens. He wants to dominate them. Rule them. For the betterment of the greater hole. Not rational intent either, just social instinct. (All puns intended.)

5.  You can spin the facts around all you want. Blaming TIM instead of Anderson for another Cerberus failure now with Reaper technology is like blaming the Reapers for Saren's treason as it was Saren's free will that sealed his fate. Cerberus pissed off the Council races except the Alliance, that Anderson can not trust in his anti-Cerberus quest and started paying for it the price, that TIM is willing to pay as many times as necessary to achieve his goals. The fact remains: another successful Cerberus project that cost a lot of collateral damage due to another Alliance admiral's treason/idiocy.

Ad 4.3.: So how is dominating the other races "for the betterment of the greater hole"?

Ad 5.: First of all, after reading it over and over again, an Alliance Soldier cannot, by definition, commit treason against Cerberus. That said, causing damage to your enemy isn't idiocy. In any case there is no point in blaming anyone for letting Grayson escape.
The question is if implanting Grayson with reaper tech was right or wrong. I question both, the *Grayson*, and the *implanting with reaper tech* part.

First, Grayson did not seem to pose a threat to Cerberus, while left alone. He wasn't going to harm Cerberus, fearing for Kahlee. On the other hand he did warn TIM that he would be a danger if Cerberus caused trouble. Which they did, basically for vengeance, putting the hole organization at risk. It seems to me, that using Grayson wasn't that smart after all.

Second, it is clear that in war there will be causalities. But what Cerberus does is different. They sacrifice people at every corner. Be it using a child as cannon fodder, or Grayson as a test tube. If a human life is sacrificed it should be made sure that it is really, really worth it; but Cerberus does it so often and so easily and without even thinking about it that too me it seems, that they are not treating humanity with even a small part of the respect they themselves claim it deserves.

Besides, Cerberus is an organization at war and it's operations should not be viewed in a "what if the enemy would not have interfered"  kind of way. With this in mind, how was Grayson "another successful Cerberus project", when a lot of Cerberus assets where destroyed and while Cerberus gained information on the reapers, the reapers gained information on the Ascension project?

Modifié par krimesh, 21 août 2010 - 02:38 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]krimesh wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

4.3. Xenophobia was never rational. In the ME universe TIM does not want to alienate himself and Humanity from the aliens. He wants to dominate them. Rule them. For the betterment of the greater hole. Not rational intent either, just social instinct. (All puns intended.)

5.  You can spin the facts around all you want. Blaming TIM instead of Anderson for another Cerberus failure now with Reaper technology is like blaming the Reapers for Saren's treason as it was Saren's free will that sealed his fate. Cerberus pissed off the Council races except the Alliance, that Anderson can not trust in his anti-Cerberus quest and started paying for it the price, that TIM is willing to pay as many times as necessary to achieve his goals. The fact remains: another successful Cerberus project that cost a lot of collateral damage due to another Alliance admiral's treason/idiocy.[/quote]

Ad 4.3.: So how is dominating the other races "for the betterment of the greater hole"?
[/quote]
How is US dominating the world good? We have no nаzism and very little communism, that's how.


[quote]krimesh wrote...
Ad 5.: First of all, after reading it over and over again, an Alliance Soldier cannot, by definition, commit treason against Cerberus.
[/quote]
But he can commit treason against the Alliance.


[quote]krimesh wrote...
That said, causing damage to your enemy isn't idiocy.
[/quote]
Cerberus isn't Alliance's enemy. Or else the Alliance would take proactive action against Cerberus, and Anderson (and earlier Kahoku) could easily rely on the Alliance's support.


[quote]krimesh wrote...
In any case there is no point in blaming anyone for letting Grayson escape.
[/quote]
Yes there is. Without Anderson's interference, there is a good chance that Grayson would be promptly terminated and all would go smooth and neat.


[quote]krimesh wrote...
The question is if implanting Grayson with reaper tech was right or wrong. I question both, the *Grayson*, and the *implanting with reaper tech* part.
[/quote]
Yes and yes. Both were right. "Unethical" science is ethical, because it advances our knowledge of the world we live in, giving us greater understanding of it and power manipulate it to our convinience. The subjects for the "unethical" science's experiments should be the wretches like Paul Grayson, who put his passions ahead of his duty in a critical moment. You forgot about the third question: who should engage in such activities? And the answer is: right, the organizations like Cerberus, with the guts to do what's necessary, and provide plausible deniability to the parties that have to maintain their public image before millions of "paragon" citizens.


[quote]krimesh wrote...
First, Grayson did not seem to pose a threat to Cerberus, while left alone.
[/quote] 
But he did. Because he could change his mind any time.


[quote]krimesh wrote...
He wasn't going to harm Cerberus, fearing for Kahlee.
[/quote]
Yet, he harmed Cerberus in spite of his fear for Kahlee. Moreover, he involved her, and now, that he doesn't care being dead, she is in a world of trouble, being a possible abduction target for the next Cerberus experiment.


[quote]krimesh wrote...
On the other hand he did warn TIM that he would be a danger if Cerberus caused trouble. Which they did, basically for vengeance, putting the hole organization at risk. It seems to me, that using Grayson wasn't that smart after all.
[/quote]
It wasn't smart not to eliminate all security risks associated with Grayson after his defection, but it looks like Grayson managed to outplay Cerberus, which, I repeat, is to his credit. It's not to Drew Karpyshyn's credit, however, that he skipped the part about how Grayson managed to do it.


[quote]krimesh wrote...
Second, it is clear that in war there will be causalities. But what Cerberus does is different. They sacrifice people at every corner. Be it using a child as cannon fodder, or Grayson as a test tube. If a human life is sacrificed it should be made sure that it is really, really worth it; but Cerberus does it so often and so easily and without even thinking about it that too me it seems, that they are not treating humanity with even a small part of the respect they themselves claim it deserves.
[/quote]
Son, that may be a shock to you, but there is no sanctity to anything in this world, including an individual's life. Unlike sanctity, the pricetag is there to everything in this world. Including each individual's life. Ever heard the expression: "It's nothing personal, just business"?


[quote]krimesh wrote...
Besides, Cerberus is an organization at war and it's operations should not be viewed in a "what if the enemy would not have interfered"  kind of way.
[/quote]
As far as I know, Cerberus never took any hostile action against any Turian asset. Even that Kurt Weisman's plan in Earthborn Shepard's exclusive quest, that may be speculated as having a Cerberus connection was foiled, and it may be speculated that not without it having been planned to be foiled in the first place. Hence, the Turian action can be classified as "pre-emptive" at best, and "unprovoked" in Cerberus propaganda. That's not the first time, that the Turians take preemptive/unprovoked action against the Humans...


[quote]krimesh wrote...
With this in mind, how was Grayson "another successful Cerberus project", when a lot of Cerberus assets where destroyed and while Cerberus gained information on the reapers, the reapers gained information on the Ascension project?[/quote]

The project was successful. It provided a lot of insight into the indoctrination process, and the records of it will be used in time to secure Human dominance against the Reapers and beyond.

A lot of Cerberus assets were compromised and the Repears got the information on the Ascension project as the result of the hostile action of the Turians, facilitated by Rear Admiral David Anderson's high treason.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 août 2010 - 03:36 .

[Forst1999]

The novel didn't change my perception of Cerberus in the slightest. They are:
1) Completly immoral. Their experiments are horrible, and a little reminder: They did this kind of things even BEFORE the Reaper threat was known. So don't say they just do what is necessary, because they were like this even without a good reason. It is just one crazy man with his vision of a human-led galaxy and his idiotic followers.
2) They aren't very clever, to say at least. Grayson threatened TIM with his knowledge about Cerberus. To TIM's credit, he couldn't know how much Grayson knew. But after abducting him, and finding his hard-drive deleted after he send information to someone would have made me more cautious. He should have watched Kahlee and he should have expected some kind of trouble.

Modifié par Forst1999, 21 août 2010 - 04:04 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Forst1999 wrote...

The novel didn't change my perception of Cerberus in the slightest. They are:
1) Completly immoral. Their experiments are horrible, and a little reminder: They did this kind of things even BEFORE the Reaper threat was known. So don't say they just do what is necessary, because they were like this even without a good reason. It is just one crazy man with his vision of a human-led galaxy and his idiotic followers.
[/quote]
And wealthy contributors, don' forget that part. And that's only after they supposedly went rogue.


[quote]
2) They aren't very clever, to say at least. Grayson threatened TIM with his knowledge about Cerberus. To TIM's credit, he couldn't know how much Grayson knew. But after abducting him, and finding his hard-drive deleted after he send information to someone would have made me more cautious. He should have watched Kahlee and he should have expected some kind of trouble. [/quote]
[/quote]
That's Karpyshyn's fault. He should have included at least one whole chapter dealing how Sanders and Anderson were analysing Grayson's data and stuff to find the glitch, that TIM and Cerberus Command could not anticipate.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 août 2010 - 04:24 .

[Neuzhelin]

1. High risk - high reward. He was totally unaware of the security leak that jeopardized the project. But even the author of the book seems "unaware" of it, since it's not even hinted at what that security leak was.

2. I present xenophobia as something that should be controlled in a well-organized society. So should the defending of one's offspring... (lol, hwut? Gillian was adopted! on TIM's orders!!!)

3. The escape was inevitable, since it was the author's plan. Just like every Cerberus f*ckup in the ME series. I'm OK with the author's rigth to do whatever they want with their creations, but don't push this forward as something that's "ineviatable" in-universe.

4.1. Even if they are on the way there, they are not yet there. You fight one battle at a time anyway, or you lose them all. Be reasonable.
4.2. That's a heavily opinionated statement, from any angle you look at it.
4.3. Xenophobia was never rational. In the ME universe TIM does not want to alienate himself and Humanity from the aliens. He wants to dominate them. Rule them. For the betterment of the greater hole. Not rational intent either, just social instinct. (All puns intended.)

5.  You can spin the facts around all you want. Blaming TIM instead of Anderson for another Cerberus failure now with Reaper technology is like blaming the Reapers for Saren's treason as it was Saren's free will that sealed his fate. Cerberus pissed off the Council races except the Alliance, that Anderson can not trust in his anti-Cerberus quest and started paying for it the price, that TIM is willing to pay as many times as necessary to achieve his goals. The fact remains: another successful Cerberus project that cost a lot of collateral damage due to another Alliance admiral's treason/idiocy.

1) First point stands, even though you kept dodging it.

2) The preservation of off-spring is not the topic of this novel or the thread. The topic is the other one of the primal needs, survival of Grayson himself. On a side note, I highly doubt that the chemical processes in the brain (as in feelings are different) would have been any different if Gillian was his biological daughter. (it seemed to be what you were trying to address with your 1337 language) Nevertheless, let's stay on topic. TIM knew about the consequences of going against Grayson as in having Cerberus exposed. He was foolish enough to risk and payed for it.

3) Again, you being not satisfied with the way ME world/Cerberus, doesn't change the fact of how it is.


4.1) The only battle won was reconstructing Shepard and providing him with rescources to beat the collectors. Even that was about to fail because of security breaches (starting missions of ME2) in that Cerberus cell. You idealize Cerberus and fail to be critical, while devaluating everything else in every single one of your posts. There is a pattern there and it seems it extends further then with fictional characters in your life. You might want to examine that.
4.2) No, it is a correct generalization. Xenophobia presents broken individuals (examine the recruits and their past records) with an enemy and a cause while they are dominated by TIM. Check the last chapter where TIM's personality cult is displayed. Cerberus is a morally bankrupt organisation with an  ideology reminding of **** Germany under Hitler. Yes there are some unique areas of research and advances but at what cost?
4.3) But it was rational once when humans lived in tribes. It is genetically programed into us and some clear traits remain, such as approach anxiety. Meeting other tribes usually meant death/destruction/rape but now, or in the ME universe it is not only irrational but destructive for individuals on many levels.
Also, if history teaches anything it is that domination never works. It is shortsighted as no council race will submit to the remnants of Cerberus and even if there will be an attempt, it will only weaken the galaxy resulting in a new cycle.

5) You missed the point of the anology and spinned it around to a point where logic was gone. Before Saren there we Dr. Shu Qian and Edan Haddah and there would have been many more if Saren was not there. Also, free will and indoctrination do not compute. You are grasping for straws there. Reread the post and focus on this: Cerberus has caused so much carnage and damage to everyone and everything that sooner or later (focus on sooner though) the galaxy would retaliate. You attempt to turn it on the head is as ridiculous as calling USA for Al-Qaeda when you call Anderson's actions (Alliance) against Cerberus (a rogue terrorist group) for treason. Cerberus sets everyone back, especially humanity and payed for it. Ironically, the most of the data collected by the Reapers was against humans in a classified facility, Grissom Academy. It wasn't Anderson's project to create a reaper, it wasn't Grayson's choice to become one and if TIM could see the greater picture, Sanders would not have had the data to begin with.

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 21 août 2010 - 04:32 .