231 réponses à ce sujet

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

This thread needs longer quotes!!!

[Dean_the_Young]

Neuzhelin wrote...

Bennyjammin79 wrote...


Thank you zulu for the comedic relief.

And now Dean joined in. After all his numerous posts filled with denial of the things wrong with Cerberus and idealizations of the organisation instead of a slightest hint of criticism, vile distortion of facts and very poor rationalisations on Cerberus' behalf people still bite! I salute you, Dean, if there is a troll award to be rewarded for 2010, I will nominate you (I am sorry, Zulu, he is better)

When have I ever denied a crime done by Cerberus?

You know, the organization itself. Crimes willingly, knowingly, deliberately sanctioned by the leadership. Stuff that they do.

Yea, after seeing the result of what the reapers did through just 1 man - Grayson (as in the greatest intelligence leak and a major blow to the galaxy when he sent the data),

? 'Major' blow?

after seeing where indoctrination did to the smartest minds (like Dr. Shu Qian),most loyal servants of the galaxy (like Saren)

All the more reason to study it to defend against it. Or do you think we won't be faced by it.

there could in fact, be absolutely NO HARM in handing over, not just a reaper, but a reaper constructing base to a terrorist organisation,

Again, when have I ever claimed there was no harm? That sounds mighty close to a strawman: I have always said that Cerberus was a far less problem than the Reapers.

The best benefits from the base have always not needed to reprude a reaper whole sale. Do you deny this?

in the hands of a power hungry xenophobic dictator,

TIM is neither xenophobic or a dictator. Get your insults straight: he's a xenonationalist in a xenonationalist galaxy and he's never been a dictator.

with the organisation having a list of security breaches and failed projects longer than "War and Peace" novel! What could possibly go wrong when it is perfectly safe! What a paradigm shift!

I will pay you 500 dollars if you can make a list of security breaches and project failures even a fifth the length of War and Peace.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 août 2010 - 06:52 .

[krimesh]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yea, after seeing the result of what the reapers did through just 1 man - Grayson (as in the greatest intelligence leak and a major blow to the galaxy when he sent the data),

?

after seeing where indoctrination did to the smartest minds (like Dr. Shu Qian),most loyal servants of the galaxy (like Saren)

All the more reason to study it to defend against it.

Your ? : *RETRIBUTION SPOILER* Grayson got converted by Cerberus into something like Saren, albeit he was resisting the reapers heavily. He escaped (base got attacked by turian military), killed a few people and uploaded part of the Ascension Project database to the reapers, before he could be brought down.

Studying indoctrination in the collector base is like teaching quantum mechanics in kindergarden, except that indoctrination might indoctrinate you if you fail. Who knows if in CB another Grayson could happen: faster than any organic, an incredibly powerful biotic, and controlled by the most powerful AI ever encountered - not one reaper, but many at once.

EDIT: Actually for all we know Grayson could just be the result of applying tech from CB. And that DID go wrong, obviously. Even though some people say that him getting away is the fault of Cerberus' enimies, who attacked the base where Grayson was held.

Modifié par krimesh, 22 août 2010 - 07:06 .

[Dean_the_Young]

krimesh wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yea, after seeing the result of what the reapers did through just 1 man - Grayson (as in the greatest intelligence leak and a major blow to the galaxy when he sent the data),

?

after seeing where indoctrination did to the smartest minds (like Dr. Shu Qian),most loyal servants of the galaxy (like Saren)

All the more reason to study it to defend against it.

Your ? : *RETRIBUTION SPOILER* Grayson got converted by Cerberus into something like Saren, albeit he was resisting the reapers heavily. He escaped (base got attacked by turian military), killed a few people and uploaded part of the Ascension Project database to the reapers, before he could be brought down.

I knew that, but I'm trying to figure out how it's such a major security breach/blow to the galaxy.

The Reapers already know about biotics. It's a point of interest in their ascension plans, but it's hardly novel to them. Harbringer and the Collector fighters already had powerful biotics.

Studying indoctrination in the collector base is like teaching quantum mechanics in kindergarden, except that indoctrination might indoctrinate you if you fail. Who knows if in CB another Grayson could happen: faster than any organic, an incredibly powerful biotic, and controlled by the most powerful AI ever encountered - not one reaper, but many at once.

And the problem with not putting self-indoctrinating reaper scraps in place of cybernetics is... what?

EDIT: Actually for all we know Grayson could just be the result of applying tech from CB. And that DID go wrong, obviously. Even though some people say that him getting away is the fault of Cerberus' enimies, who attacked the base where Grayson was held.

Retribution occurs regardless of what end-game choice is made.

[krimesh]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Retribution occurs regardless of what end-game choice is made.

Ah, this I did not know, I have been wondering about it. Where do you have your information from?

As to why I think Reapers having the Ascension data might be trouble: Grayson escaped. The reapers could have done everything with him. Instead they decided to risk him just for that data. And they also became interested in Kahlee, just because she had experience with that stuff. The reapers were going after something, something which they figured couldn't wait until they arrived themselves. Or they are just bored stuck out there in the void.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And the problem with not putting self-indoctrinating reaper scraps in place of cybernetics is... what?

I did not understand what you meant by that.

Modifié par krimesh, 22 août 2010 - 07:59 .

[Dean_the_Young]

krimesh wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Retribution occurs regardless of what end-game choice is made.

Ah, this I did not know, I have been wondering about it. Where do you have your information from?

The Mass Effect franchise has gone to extreme lengths to not establish a single 'canon' storyline: no established gender, no established decisions, nothing from any of the games. Even the one-liner about non-Council Anderson doesn't preclude a Councilor Anderson.

The policy of the Mass Effect books has been that they have to be able to work regardless of all choices made in the Mass Effect games: nothing can interfere with eachother. In order to follow that policy, Retribution has to be applicable to a no-base game as well.

And it can be: it can be explained as TIM taking just scraps from the destroyed Collector Base, and pieces from Sovereign as well. F

As to why I think Reapers having the Ascension data might be trouble: Grayson escaped. The reapers could have done everything with him. Instead they decided to risk him just for that data. And they also became interested in Kahlee, just because she had experience with that stuff. The reapers were going after something, something which they figured couldn't wait until they arrived themselves. Or they are just bored stuck out there in the void.

Given how hunted Grayson was, it's far from implausible that they just set out to get information of greatest interest while they still could. That interest, of course, being human science and biotic ability.

But the Ascension project is a civilian project. It isn't the key to human biotic technology (the Asari are just as capable), it isn't a super-weapon development project.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And the problem with not putting self-indoctrinating reaper scraps in place of cybernetics is... what?

I did not understand what you meant by that.

Reaper cybernetics drive people insane because they're made to link with the Reapers.

So, when you study the technology and create your own cybernetics, don't put in parts that let them do that.

If the problem with a factory is that it makes cars with bombs inside, study the factory and then remove the bombs. They can't explode then.

[Neuzhelin]

"That sounds mighty close to a strawman"

After all the strawmen you pulled out just wow! Not only do you possess amazing trolling abilities but also a sense of irony! Also, +1 for persistence and +1 for completely ignoring the main point of the dangers of a reaper constructing base.

[krimesh]

Dean_the_Young wrote...



The Mass Effect franchise has gone to extreme lengths to not establish a single 'canon' storyline: no established gender, no established decisions, nothing from any of the games. Even the one-liner about non-Council Anderson doesn't preclude a Councilor Anderson.

The policy of the Mass Effect books has been that they have to be able to work regardless of all choices made in the Mass Effect games: nothing can interfere with eachother. In order to follow that policy, Retribution has to be applicable to a no-base game as well.

And it can be: it can be explained as TIM taking just scraps from the destroyed Collector Base, and pieces from Sovereign as well. F

Yea, thats what I thought, but the non-Council Anderson made me suspicious if Retribution might only be applicable to the default story or something.

Given how hunted Grayson was, it's far from implausible that they just set out to get information of greatest interest while they still could. That interest, of course, being human science and biotic ability.

But the Ascension project is a civilian project. It isn't the key to human biotic technology (the Asari are just as capable), it isn't a super-weapon development project.

There is a passage in the book where someone (possibly Anderson, or maybe Grayson) reasons that if the reapers had decided to fly Grayson into the Terminus systems, no one would have been able to track him.
Its not that I have any clue why exactly, but the reapers seem very interested in info on humans. Sure, Ascension is no weapon factory, but maybe the research there can help to enhance a human reaper or something. (The reapers are experts on biotics, clearly, but not yet on humans.) They had the collectors build one.. I don't think thats standard procedure; rather they might have wanted the human reaper as a tool to activate the citadel relay or something like that. So maybe they found other agents, or hope to find them, to start another attempt at building a human reaper. This of course is a lot speculation, but in that case the Ascension data would have the potential to make the reaper vanguard stronger, or might help to finish him sooner.

Reaper cybernetics drive people insane because they're made to link with the Reapers.

So, when you study the technology and create your own cybernetics, don't put in parts that let them do that.

If the problem with a factory is that it makes cars with bombs inside, study the factory and then remove the bombs. They can't explode then.

So why did Cerberus not do that whit Grayson? Either they could not, or wanted not. The fact that they did, is exactly why I don't want them to have any reaper tech.
Also my personal impression of reaper technology is, that it is based on nano robots, sort of like human cells, and every single one of them is basically part of a reaper consciousness or at least linked to one.
So maybe, if you want to study the technology (indoctrination AND everything else) you have to let the thing grow first. Like all those little cells assembling into something, to see how they work. Maybe that is what Cerberus wanted with Grayson? But that makes indoctrination inseparable form the research until you figure out how to suppress it; that might require actually influencing and controlling those reaper cells. And that kind of research would take a long time, with permanent risk of breakout.

Modifié par krimesh, 22 août 2010 - 09:05 .

[Computer_God91]

How could this experiment have been necessary when now you have handed the enemy all the intel about the human body, and the blueprints to every place Grayson went?

[Dean_the_Young]

krimesh wrote...
Yea, thats what I thought, but the non-Council Anderson made me suspicious if Retribution might only be applicable to the default story or something.

If Retribution were trying to set any sort of default, it did an abhorrent job at it. The Councilor Udina sounds like a mixup more than anything else, and even that can be explained by Anderson stepping down.

There is a passage in the book where someone (possibly Anderson, or maybe Grayson) reasons that if the reapers had decided to fly Grayson into the Terminus systems, no one would have been able to track him.
Its not that I have any clue why exactly, but the reapers seem very interested in info on humans. Sure, Ascension is no weapon factory, but maybe the research there can help to enhance a human reaper or something. (The reapers are experts on biotics, clearly, but not yet on humans.) They had the collectors build one.. I don't think thats standard procedure; rather they might have wanted the human reaper as a tool to activate the citadel relay or something like that. So maybe they found other agents, or hope to find them, to start another attempt at building a human reaper. This of course is a lot speculation, but in that case the Ascension data would have the potential to make the reaper vanguard stronger, or might help to finish him sooner.

Very possible, but that isn't some huge military advantage to the Reapers. At best, it let's their post-war mop-up phase go faster... but at that point, they could set their own pace of genocide and make up the difference with all the time in the universe.

So why did Cerberus not do that whit Grayson? Either they could not, or wanted not. The fact that they did, is exactly why I don't want them to have any reaper tech.

Revenge, mostly, so want. At the most dispersonal doing so with pure Reaper scraps can show just what needs to be guarded against. Remember, Anderson wasn't something that was going to be released to the galaxy at large. He was due to be killed before the Turians intervened. But it's clear that a large part of it was due to Grayson's decision to betray and blackmail TIM earlier... which, while petty, calls to mind the plentiful accounts of revenge fantasies people have spelled out for, say, Udina for doing his job in ME1. (I recal one poster who had something of a hardon about his re-interpretation of that scene: execution of Udina and terrorizing the council is the pretty version of it.)

Petty, disgraceful, but human, and far less dangerous than the Reapers.

Also my personal impression of reaper technology is, that it is based on nano robots, sort of like human cells, and every single one of them is basically part of a reaper consciousness or at least linked to one.
So maybe, if you want to study the technology (indoctrination AND everything else) you have to let the thing grow first. Like all those little cells assembling into something, to see how they work. Maybe that is what Cerberus wanted with Grayson? But that makes indoctrination inseparable form the research until you figure out how to suppress it; that might require actually influencing and controlling those reaper cells. And that kind of research would take a long time, with permanent risk of breakout.

I strongly doubt the conclusion about technology: the Thannix, Reaper IFF, and EDI all point to that Reaper technology can be separated, repurposed, and even replicated into (more or less) benign parts, once you scrub it enough.

As for Grayson being the testbed for ideas and Reaper tech, little doubt. It was an abhorrent experiment that was probably seen as the fast-lane for that danger study you mentioned, and who better than past enemies?

[Dean_the_Young]

Computer_God91 wrote...

How could this experiment have been necessary when now you have handed the enemy all the intel about the human body, and the blueprints to every place Grayson went?

...the Reapers already knew about the human body. They only had captured like tens of thousands of them, after all.

Cyborg Grayson really didn't go that many places.

[Dean_the_Young]

Neuzhelin wrote...

"That sounds mighty close to a strawman"
After all the strawmen you pulled out just wow! Not only do you possess amazing trolling abilities but also a sense of irony! Also, +1 for persistence and +1 for completely ignoring the main point of the dangers of a reaper constructing base.

Which, to date, has been (a) indoctrination risk, to which I have pointed out diminishing factors and countermeasures, ( building a Reaper, which is neither within the scope of Cerberus's means or abilities (and possibly desires) or even the best way to exploit the technology, and © inhumane Cerberus tests, which will happen anyway and are small change compared to the Reaper threat.

Did I miss any there? You hardly addressed any of my points, so I can't be sure.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 août 2010 - 09:18 .

[krimesh]

I didn't even read the hole thing yet, but you missed a point I think:



"Very possible, but that isn't some huge military advantage to the Reapers. At best, it let's their post-war mop-up phase go faster... but at that point, they could set their own pace of genocide and make up the difference with all the time in the universe."



They wanted a human reaper BEFORE the actual invasion, presumably to start it. Since Sovereign is gone, they need another way in. For example another reaper to turn on the Citadel relay. Who says they don't have servants building yet another human reaper for that very purpose? If that would be their plan, then the Ascension data might make it stronger. Which would have direct consequences on ME3 events.

[krimesh]

Computer_God91 wrote...

How could this experiment have been necessary when now you have handed the enemy all the intel about the human body, and the blueprints to every place Grayson went?

Sorry, I didn't quite get that, which experiment you mean? Thats why we quote an awful lot...

[Dean_the_Young]

krimesh wrote...

I didn't even read the hole thing yet, but you missed a point I think:

"Very possible, but that isn't some huge military advantage to the Reapers. At best, it let's their post-war mop-up phase go faster... but at that point, they could set their own pace of genocide and make up the difference with all the time in the universe."

They wanted a human reaper BEFORE the actual invasion, presumably to start it. Since Sovereign is gone, they need another way in. For example another reaper to turn on the Citadel relay. Who says they don't have servants building yet another human reaper for that very purpose? If that would be their plan, then the Ascension data might make it stronger. Which would have direct consequences on ME3 events.

I understood that, but at this point we have nothing to suggest they do and everything to suggest they don't. If the Reapers had two groups plotting, they would have been linked: splitting the captured humans, after all, when there was a safe base beyond Omega 4 would have been a waste of time and effort. As the human reaper was rather obviously a backup plan, they would have focused on completing it ASAP before building a second (since the completion of the first is success, while completion of a second is a matter of resources that can't be rushed except, possibly, with the completion of the first). That means both factions would have worked together, in delivery if nothing else, and that would leave trails.

Of course, there is no indication of another group making a human reaper. No abductions of colonies, for one thing, nor any other group with the implied technology to let them do so. No evidence of any other group when EDI trawled through their computer banks twice, no signs when going through the Collector Base schematics and data base. No narrative clues either.

It is, by the nature of things, impossible to 'prove' a negative. But you can sure find a lot of inferences to strongly argue against it: the lack of more colony abductions being one of them.

I can certainly see the Ascension data being desired by the Reapers for when they do make another attempt at a human reaper. I just don't see that attempt coming until they get back, as with the Collectors gone they have no known agents to really to do so. (Besides, possibly, the Geth, depending on playthrough, but the Reapers kept the Geth at arms length when it came to giving them technology.) While human biotic data is of interest to them for when they win and try to make another Reaper, as a 'major' disaster of war-shaping proportions I do not see it.

[krimesh]

I strongly doubt the conclusion about technology: the Thannix, Reaper IFF, and EDI all point to that Reaper technology can be separated, repurposed, and even replicated into (more or less) benign parts, once you scrub it enough.

First of all, what does EDI have to do with reaper technology? Did I miss something? Or do you mean how she helped handling the IFF, and hacked Collector Ships?

Second, the Thannix is, as far as I understand it, the result of copying reaper tech, by looking at it from afar, or at least the result from looking at a VERY dead reaper. In any case its not reaper tech, its just reaper-inspired.

Third, the IFF shut down the Normandy, and called help, resulting in the abduction of everyone except joker, and it was a close escape. Also it took a Cerberus team that perished on that mission to get the IFF, and last but not least, it took Shepard and his squad - quite unique an asset - to actually extract the IFF form the reaper.
After all that it could finally be used. Quite expensive.

Revenge, mostly, so want.

Again, the *why* is actually not so important. They tried to study reaper tech (in what I think of as Cerberus-fashion: stick it into a human and see what happens), and, just as I feared when I decided not to give the base to Cerberus, they couldn't handle it. And don't tell me, they would have executed Grayson. They did not. Because of an attack. So what? Pissing everyone off, and then whining, because someone pushed you while you were performing a balancing act while holding a cup of hot coffee? Think again.

Modifié par krimesh, 22 août 2010 - 10:13 .

[krimesh]

It is, by the nature of things, impossible to 'prove' a negative. But you can sure find a lot of inferences to strongly argue against it: the lack of more colony abductions being one of them.

Nah, Retribution occurs probably about a year after ME2 events. So they wouldn't have had two reapers being built at once. Besides it is not said in what stage such a second reaper construction would be. They might only be planning. Or they might be planning to build a squad of Grayson-like agents to activate the relay. Any such strategy involving their favorite race, the humans, would profit from data on extensive human biotics experiments.
When what the reapers desperately need is to "find another way" as harbinger put it, it seems unlikely to me, that they would send such a valuable asset as Grayson on an unrelated mission.

Modifié par krimesh, 22 août 2010 - 10:24 .

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

[quote]Hey what are you getting at? There is a solution to child obesity. It's called Hitler's Youth and Lenin's Pioneers. But there is a downside to it, you know?[/quote]

Dominating the world has severe repercussions. That's what I am getting at.

[Quote]So, if anything, he gave away to the Turians
the fact, that despite claiming Cerberus to be the "avowed enemy" the
Alliance keeps sitting tight on their asses and doing nothing to solve
the problem. That should raze a couple of eyebrows, or whatever they
have for it, among the Turians...[/Quote]

Kind of hard to pinpoint Cerberus down when they are routinely hacking the Alliance system and scrubbing known data about them, which is mentioned in the first game IIRC by Hackett.

[Quote]Yes there is. Without Anderson's interference, there is a good chance that
Grayson would be promptly terminated and all would go smooth and neat.[/Quote]

Unknown and still not a justification for the experiment.

[Quote]The
kind of experiments Cerberus is conducting does not excuse Anderson's
treason. And the theorycraft is what the Cerberus haters resort to in
this matter: "even if Anderson did not interfere, Grayson would
inevitably cut loose" says they.[/Quote]

Anderson cannot commit treason against Cerberus. Going after Cerberus does not betray the Alliance. Being inveitably cut loose is not my argument.


[quote]Cerberus isn't Alliance's enemy. Or else the Alliance would take proactive action against Cerberus, and Anderson (and earlier Kahoku) could easily rely on the Alliance's support.[/quote]

Yes, contact Alliance personnel giving Cerberus a heads up that someone was on the way to the location of their base.

[Quote]
When and why did Cerberus go rogue?[/Quote]

Cerberus beginning to conduct illegal experiments does not facilitate the Alliance knowing fully about it until the Akuze incident. Read Fongiel's post in that thread.

[quote]A traitor admiral.[/quote]

Constantly throwing that word around is not an argument and it is not proving your point.

[quote]Under Alliance jurisdiction. Cerberus wasn't "rogue" then.[/quote]

Under Alliance jurisdiction =/= under Alliance known knowledge.

[quote]Not Cerberus.[/quote]

Yes Cerberus.

[quote]What? Not Cerberus.[/quote]

My mistake

[quote]
- Depot Stigma-23
[/quote]
Finally, you score a point.


[quote]Bad, bad Cerberus. L5x implants, anyone?[/quote]

Kidnapping children like Jack is fine?


[quote]See above[/quote]

Nothing to see.


[quote]You covered it already, don't cheat.[/quote]

Interfering with the Ascension project has multiple counts; stealing R&D and injecting an autistic kid with serums.


[quote]See above.[/quote]

Goes back to them kidnapping and experimenting on kids


[quote]That's sad, but they new the risks.[/quote]

Blaming the victim.


[quote]Ya?
Let the Collectors rampage unchecked, I suppose. Why do you play as
Commander Shepard and not as a bartender in the Presidium Diplomatic
Lounge?[/Quote]

Not an an argument. Illegal experiments cannot be interfered with if they are not conducted in the first place. Cerberus does not have to conduct experiments to have knowledge about the Collectors or what they are doing.

[quote]But
they do. Even a couple of treacherous Alliance admirals, a Council
spectre and a Turian commando brigade can't stop them. They've earned
their pass on that so far.[/Quote]

Organizations unable to currently deal with them does not mean that they get a pass; that was the whole reason why the Turians struck at multiple installations and arrested multiple Cerberus agents.

[Quote]You still don't get
it, do you? There is no such thing in the world as "right". There is
only "might". Wolves feed on sheep not because they got the "right" to
do it, but they got the necessity. And the humans destroy wolves because
of that. I am not saying that the Turians were wrong about what they
did, but that doesn't change the nature of their action. It remains
pre-emptive and unprovoked. And, BTW, it failed.[/Quote]

The attack on Cerberus was part of a broad-sweep conducted by the Turian military under the guidance of Anderson. This refutes that the Alliance is "doing nothing about it", given that an Alliance official just partaked in a raid on one of their stations. There not being a metaphysical existence of individual "rights" does not mean that Cerberus can refuse to follow the laws established by government without consequence.

[quote]AFAIK,
the experiment was conducted outside of the Citadel space. Therefore,
the fact is: it's not illegal. And its unethical-ness is largely
speculative. And TIM was willing to pay Aria a lot of money to
get the data back, which sort of suggests it's not worthless, at least.
So you are incorrect about "zero knowledge".[/Quote]

Being outside of citadal space does not make slavery (and other such activities) legal. The constant theme throughout both games is that the council cannot begin moving in resources without fear of starting a war with the batarians and not having the resources to do that.

I am not incorrect about you or I having "zero knowledge". The amount of money paid does not reveal whether the data has any scientific value.

[quote]Anderson clearly
overstepped his authority. And he took the decision to convey critical
information to an alien power. On a sudden whim. For a woman's love.
Riiight...[/Quote]

He conveyed critical information (that was not Alliance Data) about a wanted terrorist organization. That does not constitute treason nor is it overstepping his bounds; ultimately it is the Turians who went outside of citadel space. Given that it was going after Cerberus, I imagine it will be condoned.

[quote]tl;dr Dr. Peter Venkman doesn't know what he's talking about.[/quote]

Make original material.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 22 août 2010 - 10:44 .

[Solaris Paradox]

krimesh wrote...

First of all, what does EDI have to do with reaper technology? Did I miss something? Or do you mean how she helped handling the IFF, and hacked Collector Ships?

Question EDI after Joker unblocks her. She's got some tech from Sovereign's wreckage in her hardware.

[Giggles_Manically]

"In other words if she starts talking about being the "VANGUARD OF OUR DESTRUCTION" I got dibs on the lifeboat"



Best line in the game there.

[krimesh]

If EDI has actual parts of actual Sovereign inside her, then that is a real masterpiece by Cerberus, if they did the work. That would give us an upper bound on how dead a reaper has to be, to be safe: being turned into a rain of scrap metal dead.

Modifié par krimesh, 22 août 2010 - 11:14 .

[Dean_the_Young]

krimesh wrote...

I strongly doubt the conclusion about technology: the Thannix, Reaper IFF, and EDI all point to that Reaper technology can be separated, repurposed, and even replicated into (more or less) benign parts, once you scrub it enough.

First of all, what does EDI have to do with reaper technology? Did I miss something? Or do you mean how she helped handling the IFF, and hacked Collector Ships?

EDI is made in part from parts of Sovereign. Not even copied principals of design, like the Thanix, but actual parts of Sovereign seized from the Citadel.

Second, the Thannix is, as far as I understand it, the result of copying reaper tech, by looking at it from afar, or at least the result from looking at a VERY dead reaper. In any case its not reaper tech, its just reaper-inspired.

There is no distinction between alive and dead, unless you intend to water down the definition of what technology is to who develops a particular system. In which case, nothing not Reaper-made is Reaper tech (and there can be no 'Reaper lines of development') and the whole idea of it as a negative is a fan-made fabrication because, hey, if you produce it yourself it isn't Reaper tech.

The Thannix is the actual gun Sovereign uses. Turian engineers took a large part of one of Sovereign's gun-arms and miniaturized it into the weapon we know and rely on for perfect missions: the knowledge and theory did not exist before Sovereign, and only existed by copying the Reaper design structure.

Third, the IFF shut down the Normandy, and called help, resulting in the abduction of everyone except joker, and it was a close escape. Also it took a Cerberus team that perished on that mission to get the IFF, and last but not least, it took Shepard and his squad - quite unique an asset - to actually extract the IFF form the reaper.
After all that it could finally be used. Quite expensive.

It was only a close call because EDI couldn't reach what the IFF was affecting. Once she was unshackled and could reach those system areas, she instantly took it off. Heck, once it was actually broadcasting she detected it as well. As I said, once scrubbed it was useful and even replicable, as the Renegade all-dead ending shows that Cerberus was able to reproduce the IFF.

Compared to what the costs of the Collectors in general were, the casualties of the IFF (and you can throw in the Normandy crew as well) don't even amount to a rounding error to the overall conflict.

Extracting the IFF once it was found wouldn't really have required Shepard himself, per say. That was more convenience and expedience than necessity: once it was found by the researchers, it would just take a (few, possibly) squads to fight their way through the husks, which are hardly a novel threat.

Again, the *why* is actually not so important. They tried to study reaper tech (in what I think of as Cerberus-fashion: stick it into a human and see what happens), and, just as I feared when I decided not to give the base to Cerberus, they couldn't handle it. And don't tell me, they would have executed Grayson. They did not. Because of an attack. So what? Pissing everyone off, and then whining, because someone pushed you while you were performing a balancing act while holding a cup of hot coffee? Think again.

Thinking again, then, and the same conclusion. No one can fulfill their roles and intents if you blow them up right as they try to do it. When disaster happens because of outside chance and not inner failure, sometimes you just have to accept it failed for reasons beyond control.

Not that I'm aware of anything Cerberus has actually done to the Turians in the first place. For all their crimes, surprisingly few are against aliens.

krimesh wrote...

It is, by
the nature of things, impossible to 'prove' a negative. But you can sure
find a lot of inferences to strongly argue against it: the lack of more
colony abductions being one of them.

Nah, Retribution
occurs probably about a year after ME2 events. So they wouldn't have had
two reapers being built at once. Besides it is not said in what stage
such a second reaper construction would be. They might only be planning.
Or they might be planning to build a squad of Grayson-like agents to
activate the relay. Any such strategy involving their favorite race, the
humans, would profit from data on extensive human biotics experiments.
When
what the reapers desperately need is to "find another way" as harbinger
put it, it seems unlikely to me, that they would send such a valuable
asset as Grayson on an unrelated mission.

Let me rephrase. If there were a second group, it would have been helping the collectors, just as the Geth were implied to (in the Firewalker). What capabilities the Reapers had were put towards developing a new Reaper, and anything that could have accelerated that completion (which, by all reason, was the Collector end-game) would have been used. Which means there also would have been a trail.

It really doesn't make much sense for the Reapers to have a second Reaper-construction facility, capable but inactive, when they didn't even have a second collector ship or even garrison their Collector Base with actual base defenses. Before building a second force, they would at least have armed and prepared their primary effort. (Basic stuff, even: the fact that the base lacked external sensors, turrents, or even close support craft and the ability to exit to attack the Normandy is rather telling). No, the signs of a second Reaper-construction group are non-existent at this point.

Grayson-commandoes are possible, except the Reapers don't really have the materials to make any. They didn't even make the first one: that was Cerberus, using extremely rare, highly guarded salvaged Reaper tech. The sort of tech that only one place, the Collector base, was geared to produce.

As for how valuable Grayson was, that really depends on what the Reapers goals are, not ours. We, for example, see the fight against the Reapers as a near-thing, one which someone like Grayson may (or likely will not) tip. But the Reapers appear entirely confident in their inevitable victory, and so using him in military ways might not be the most useful thing. Knowing about human biotics won't make the Reapers arrive any faster, won't change the space war, but it could give them a head start at improving that next human reaper. Which would make their post-victory process easier, and maybe they value that more.

Without good reason, though, civilian biotic research data isn't in and of itself to qualify as a major disaster.

[Arijharn]

krimesh wrote...
As a pragmatist, can you answer this: looking back at Cerberus operations from ME1 through ME2 and Retribution, isn't it amazing how many went awry? Independently, looking back at all known attempts to use Reaper tech, how well did that work out? A lot of disasters their too. The Thanix cannon and the Reaper IFF are the only two that ever worked; the former was inspired by a reaper which was turned into a rain of scrap metal prior to analysis; the latter cost the lives of a hole Cerberus team, took Shepard (a unique asset) to extract, caused the Normandy to lose her crew and nearly got the Ship blown away, before it could be put to use - and in all that the enemy was a DEAD reaper.

Given this history of both, Cerberus and Reaper tech, in addition to the fact that the Reapers, while denied direct access to the galaxy, are intent on gaining a foothold inside the relay-network (as we know from Retribution),
what exactly makes you think that sending a team of researchers into collector base will work out fine?

Somehow I do think that there might be indoctrination technology on board collector base. And this time the Reaper are watching closely. What will stop them from turning a team of researchers into servants, just as happened on the Derelict Reaper. Only this time they will have purpose and be under Reaper control, just as Grayson was.

By not destroying collector base you might gain valuable insight, or else you might hand the Reapers a great opportunity. I'd say that there is a lot of evidence that the latter outcome is a lot more likely.

Wheee! Around this merry-go-round we go again!

Seriously though, the amount of things that go awry with Cerberus is principally because of outside influence. The Pragia planet is about the only real thing that I can think of that did actually blow up in their face, but even then they still managed to design unique bio-amps that maximises the ability of a biotic and they also managed to create a human super biotic.

TIM is an absolute bastard, but he's a bastard with a plan, which is far more in advance of anyone else in this galaxy.

Also, Commander Shephard didn't actually have anything to do with his own resurrection, so you'd surely have to say that complete morons wouldn't be able to bring back someone from the dead.

I'd like to point out though (again, for probably the 50th time) that sure the Collector Base could be a danger to Cerberus research crew... but the simple fact is that the base is located in an extremely inhospitable location and principally rely's on stealth to defend itself. I find it more unlikely that the Reapers actually expected the location to be discovered and invaded rather than to plan for it and allow it to happen to gain a 'foothold.'

Even without the Collector Base, Cerberus has already done something of great import to not just the Alliance, but to the other species as well; the IFF. If the Reapers are to follow standard MO and shut down the relay and strangle individual star systems, then the mass production/analysis of this device is paramount. This is assuming I suppose (safely I feel) that the IFF could be used to breach this, as opposed to merely triggering more advanced relay mass effect shifting.

[Saremei]

In ME1 I was dead set against Cerberus, but after learning all I have about Cerberus to this point, I tend to support their viewpoint. Sure they had some mistakes with experiments, but ultimately their goal is for the advancement of humanity. Yes it upsets the galactic power balance, but big deal. the stuffy council has been the same for thousands of years. Things will just change up a bit.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Saremei wrote...

In ME1 I was dead set against Cerberus, but after learning all I have about Cerberus to this point, I tend to support their viewpoint. Sure they had some mistakes with experiments, but ultimately their goal is for the advancement of humanity. Yes it upsets the galactic power balance, but big deal. the stuffy council has been the same for thousands of years. Things will just change up a bit.

The stuffy council has a human representative after ME 1, and it was the council that stopped the Turians from completely destroying the Alliance. Hard to ignore "some past mistakes" when it includes a lot of downright evil.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 23 août 2010 - 01:14 .