231 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

krimesh wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

krimesh wrote...

Besides ME2 Cerberus is not really different. As mentioned before, its just TIM showing you Cerberus in such a way, that Shepard might be inclined to work with them. Honestly, Gabby and Ken, the Alliance soldiers who left for Shepard, Kelly the Alien-Lover... thats not Cerberus, just a ploy. Now, Pel and Leng, those two are what Cerberus is really all about.

Aren't they both what Cerberus is all about? How can you so selectively pick and choose what you want and conveniently ignore aspects that doesn't suit your argument and then label your decision as the definitive?

Well, thinking back to all Cerberus encounters in ME1, ME2 and the books, Cerberus as on the Normandy only exists there, while every other Cerberus cell is Pel-and-Leng-ish. So yea, sounds like a ploy to me.

But, it would be a pretty boring tale if Cerberus was getting along with everyone wouldn't it?

[krimesh]

Certainly.

[RiouHotaru]

I'm pro-humanity too. But definitely NOT when it involves crossing the moral or ethical boundaries Cerberus does. I admit, not everyone in the organization is a racist xenophobic jerk, and even Miranda admits they NEED more reasonable people. Their motivation is sound, and under other circumstances would be perfectly reasonable and noble. But then their execution sucks. Hard.

[In Exile]

Here is the issue with TIM and Cerberus: he does not really want to save humanity, so much as createa something else which happens to consider humanity.

Look at what he has currently researched or otherwise invested in: Miranda, Subject Zero, Grayson. All these are attempts to alter or otherwise change human beings into something other than what they are for the sake of dominating the rest of the galaxy.

The reality with TIM is that he seem to want a eugenics program in place to raise humanity above the rest of the species. How is this better than becoming Reaper slushee?

[Zulu_DFA]

In Exile wrote...

Here is the issue with TIM and Cerberus: he does not really want to save humanity, so much as createa something else which happens to consider humanity.
Look at what he has currently researched or otherwise invested in: Miranda, Subject Zero, Grayson. All these are attempts to alter or otherwise change human beings into something other than what they are for the sake of dominating the rest of the galaxy.
The reality with TIM is that he seem to want a eugenics program in place to raise humanity above the rest of the species. How is this better than becoming Reaper slushee?

Easily better. In Legion's terms, TIM wants to build our own future. If it's the Human reason that changes the Human form, the essense remains Human. If it's some alien reason (Reaper, or Turian-Asari), then the Human essense is lost. That's some TIM's philosophy for you.

[Moiaussi]

In Exile wrote...

Here is the issue with TIM and Cerberus: he does not really want to save humanity, so much as createa something else which happens to consider humanity.
Look at what he has currently researched or otherwise invested in: Miranda, Subject Zero, Grayson. All these are attempts to alter or otherwise change human beings into something other than what they are for the sake of dominating the rest of the galaxy.
The reality with TIM is that he seem to want a eugenics program in place to raise humanity above the rest of the species. How is this better than becoming Reaper slushee?

This is my main issue with TIM. He doesn't want to support the human race. He doesn't actually seem to believe humans can stand on their own without such programs.

There is a fine line between being the best human, and being something other than human. Cerebus seems to cross it a little too often.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

This is my main issue with TIM. He doesn't want to support the human race. He doesn't actually seem to believe humans can stand on their own without such programs.

Quite the contrary. TIM believes that Humans can stand on their own, because they have Cerberus!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 24 août 2010 - 03:56 .

[krimesh]

Moiaussi wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Here is the issue with TIM and Cerberus: he does not really want to save humanity, so much as createa something else which happens to consider humanity.
Look at what he has currently researched or otherwise invested in: Miranda, Subject Zero, Grayson. All these are attempts to alter or otherwise change human beings into something other than what they are for the sake of dominating the rest of the galaxy.
The reality with TIM is that he seem to want a eugenics program in place to raise humanity above the rest of the species. How is this better than becoming Reaper slushee?

This is my main issue with TIM. He doesn't want to support the human race. He doesn't actually seem to believe humans can stand on their own without such programs.

There is a fine line between being the best human, and being something other than human. Cerebus seems to cross it a little too often.

It has really to be said though, that this is not in itself bad. Some humans might even want to submit to the reapers voluntarily, just as the Heretics did. Or to submit to a Cerberus human improvement program for that matter.

What really bugs me about Cerberus is that their logic is so very simple: go for the best possible result at every point at any cost. Intuitively its too simple to work out; feels like accelerating towards a wall you don't see yet.
In slightly different terminology: its sort of a greedy algorithm; those who know what that is may note that a greedy algorithm does not necessarily lead to the optimal result, even in quite simple systems.

[ExtremeOne]

KainrycKarr wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

krimesh wrote...

Cheese Elemental wrote...

I destroyed the base because I like crafting my own stories, and unlike far too many people here (on BOTH sides), I don't consider it serious business.

Nah, its not about considering things serious business or not. We are debating a philosophical point here. The story may be taken form a fictional world, but that does not make the discussion any more or less valuable.

  


we could have real discussion if people on here would be open minded and look at Mass Effect 2 as its own game. but no there are  too many on here who view Cerberus as how it was portrayed in Mass Effect 1. which make for real discussion hard to come by 

Of course they would think about how Cerberus was in ME1. ME2 is a SEQUEL.

Cerberus is a combination of both representations in the games.

  


then in that case what is the view of the Alliance in ME 2 a group that turned its back on Shepard and then later after they heard he was a live and working with Cerberus decided to spy on him in ME 2.  The alliance is not all that good in ME 2 

[krimesh]

Well, the Alliance dismissed the Reapers, yea, that sucks. But spying on a guy who works with terrorists isn't that weird. Sure the Alliance isn't living up to expectations, but what does that have to do with Cerberus being morally questionable in ME1 and deceitful in ME2?

[Jonathan Shepard]

The book actually made me support Cerberus heaps more. What they did was right- crude, but right. And it's Kahlee/Anderson who are responsible for the travesty of Grayson getting loose. The Illusive Man, were my Shepard to read the novel, would become not so much as someone not to trust to tell the truth, but as someone to trust that regardless of the truth, he will make sure things get done the best way possible.

[Sgt Lindog]

i gave the base to TIM at the end of my play through because i figured it was for the greater good but after reading this book it makes you realise that the illusive man is a reckless idiot and is not the selfless savior of man kind as i previously thought. On my next playthrough he will certainly not be recieving a collector base filled with reaper technology

[In Exile]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Easily better. In Legion's terms, TIM wants to build our own future. If it's the Human reason that changes the Human form, the essense remains Human. If it's some alien reason (Reaper, or Turian-Asari), then the Human essense is lost. That's some TIM's philosophy for you.

But who decides for humanity? If TIM wants to produce a race of biologically superior Miranda-like humans, or subject a swath of children to emotional and physical abuse to produce another Jack, what gives him that right? What makes it a human decision? Because TIM is or was (blue glowing eyes are a little out of the ordinary, you know) human at some point?

I don't particular see the high virtue in eugenics, whether it is done by another human or not.

Personally, I oppose TIM because I am push a pro-human agenda. Transhumanism like TIM wants is not my idea of pro-human.

[Marta Rio]

Retribution really had no impact on my opinion of Cerberus. I knew going into it that they were an "ends-justify-the-means" group whose morally questionable plans frequently get disrupted or go awry...which is exactly how Cerberus is portrayed in the novel. I guess I felt bad for Grayson, but no worse than I felt when I discovered they had murdered Kohaku, or heard about what they did on Pragia, or Akuze, etc. etc.



I'll still give them the collector base though, every time. (Why oh why is the only other option to blow it up?)

[Costin_Razvan]

(Why oh why is the only other option to blow it up?)

Now no offence, but to whom would you give it then if you could? The Council who dismissed the Reapers? The Alliance who did the same? They would still not believe you and would just continue keeping it under rug while using the tech for their own reasons.

Hell, say what you will about what TIM does, at least he is committed to stopping the Reapers, at any cost, and that is the mentality which drew me to support Cerberus.

As for whether or not the novel changed my perception of Cerberus: It did not. In fact the only thing the novel did was give me a burning desire to kill Kahlee and Anderson.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 août 2010 - 07:43 .

[Neuzhelin]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
In fact the only thing the novel did was give me a burning desire to kill Kahlee and Anderson.

Now that's an original conclussion. Do explain on how you got there.

[krimesh]

Fascinating...

[Arijharn]

In Exile wrote...

But who decides for humanity? If TIM wants to produce a race of biologically superior Miranda-like humans, or subject a swath of children to emotional and physical abuse to produce another Jack, what gives him that right? What makes it a human decision? Because TIM is or was (blue glowing eyes are a little out of the ordinary, you know) human at some point?

I don't particular see the high virtue in eugenics, whether it is done by another human or not.

Personally, I oppose TIM because I am push a pro-human agenda. Transhumanism like TIM wants is not my idea of pro-human.

TIM decides because no one is really trying to knock him off the perch (or doing so, but without much success). You're also misinterpreting TIM a bit, he isn't setting out with the express intention of damaging people (and indeed, intentionally damaging someone is stupid... because at the most cynical level it's a waste of resources, and lets face it, biotic humans are a rarity).

Personally, I think the idea of not trying to understand and expand upon a limited aspect of humanity's capability to defend itself is asinine. A fair degree of responsibility has to lie within Cerberus' cells, I think it's overly self-righteous to lay all the blame at TIM's feet (you would trust a civic engineer to build a bridge wouldn't you? You wouldn't try to interfere with his efforts if you weren't a civic engineer) although you are correct to label at least some of Cerberus' faults with TIM. However, I personally think that TIM gives generalized orders at least ("Gain a greater understanding of human biotic potential", "resurrect Commander Shephard") but wholly entrusts his subordinates to carry out his tasks.

I guess the true lynchpin to whether TIM has the rights to do what he does lies whether he practices what he preaches. If he has willingly given of himself to his goals, then I think he has at least some right to decide what to do... and while giving up ones identity is a pretty big thing (Has he given up on his family?) I don't think personally that it is an equal loss as to someone giving up their life.

Another thing to argue however, is where exactly are the moral boundaries within the world of Mass Effect. For example, I find the idea highly unlikely for example, that the introduction of Bounty Hunters within the Star Wars universe sparked public outrage -- maybe 'life is cheap' is truer in the Mass Effect universe than it is in ours.

[Marta Rio]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

(Why oh why is the only other option to blow it up?)

Now no offence, but to whom would you give it then if you could? The Council who dismissed the Reapers? The Alliance who did the same? They would still not believe you and would just continue keeping it under rug while using the tech for their own reasons.

Shoving a whole bunch of physical evidence in their faces seems like a good way to maybe finally convince the Council/Alliance that there's something going on.  If they still deny the existence of the Reapers, they'll at least be able to study the Collector tech.  I'd say that there're arguments either way on Cerberus vs. Alliance, but not for blowing the thing sky high.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
As for whether or not the novel changed my perception of Cerberus: It did not. In fact the only thing the novel did was give me a burning desire to kill Kahlee and Anderson.

They did seem to bumble their way through this one, didn't they?  I guess they, uh, meant well?

[In Exile]

Arijharn wrote...

TIM decides because no one is really trying to knock him off the perch (or doing so, but without much success). You're also misinterpreting TIM a bit, he isn't setting out with the express intention of damaging people (and indeed, intentionally damaging someone is stupid... because at the most cynical level it's a waste of resources, and lets face it, biotic humans are a rarity).

But Jack, personality trauma aside, was a resounding success. She is an incredibly powerful biotic. If they experiment on more children and refine the process more, perhaps come up with a biochemical analogue, then they could come up with a way to mass produce far superior biotics.

And all it would cost is a bunch of traumatized chidlren. TIM isn't getting his jollies by setting puppies on fire, but would be perfectly happy to set puppies on fire it if advanced some cause. So the fact that humans are entirely expendable in his eyes makes him a very poor champion of humanity. He's four steps away from reasoning that being reaper slushee is better than extinction.

More to the point, you didn't answer my question. I did not ask why TIM decides; I asked what gave him the right to decide. If we are talking about justification, why should any person be able to decide how to alter humanity?

Personally, I think the idea of not trying to understand and expand upon a limited aspect of humanity's capability to defend itself is asinine.

There is nothing wrong with improving our abilities. But there is a difference between training, researching, and eugenics.

TIM is very clearly on one extreme of this debate.

A fair degree of responsibility has to lie within Cerberus' cells, I think it's overly self-righteous to lay all the blame at TIM's feet (you would trust a civic engineer to build a bridge wouldn't you? You wouldn't try to interfere with his efforts if you weren't a civic engineer) although you are correct to label at least some of Cerberus' faults with TIM.

Yet if if I was a government official and told them to build a damn in a particular region, and the enviromental and human cost is irrelevant so long as the damn is build I am culpable for whatever happens. This is the essence of how TIM approaches development.

However, I personally think that TIM gives generalized orders at least ("Gain a greater understanding of human biotic potential", "resurrect Commander Shephard") but wholly entrusts his subordinates to carry out his tasks.

TIM has had very clear moments were he did not consider or otherwise value the human cost. Take the derelict reaper - he wanted it studied. He lost the team he sent, but learned how indoctrination can be effective even with barely active reaper technology. The value, suffering and lives of the people were never a concern - the so-called greater good was.

At some point, though, this greater society that TIM wants to build can become so distant from our own, and involve means so abhorent to get there, that it is not worth getting in the first place; not to mention his perfect future may not be all that desirable to begin with.

I guess the true lynchpin to whether TIM has the rights to do what he does lies whether he practices what he preaches. If he has willingly given of himself to his goals, then I think he has at least some right to decide what to do... and while giving up ones identity is a pretty big thing (Has he given up on his family?) I don't think personally that it is an equal loss as to someone giving up their life.

It does not matter what he is willing to do for himself; he still does not have the right to decide for other people. Let's say Jack was his daughter. Does that fact make the death and torture of all those other children - hell, does it make the torture of Jack justified?

Aside from how abhorent eugenics as an idea is, we have the simple issue of TIM being particularly self-righteous in his vision and having a vision that is not even particularly desirable.

If humanity "at the top" is some machine organic hybrid, that is so geneticaly altered as to be only superficially similar to the "old" humanity, then do you still have humanity? At some point if you work on turning a chair into a car you end up losing the chair.

Another thing to argue however, is where exactly are the moral boundaries within the world of Mass Effect. For example, I find the idea highly unlikely for example, that the introduction of Bounty Hunters within the Star Wars universe sparked public outrage -- maybe 'life is cheap' is truer in the Mass Effect universe than it is in ours.

Given how totally not cool people are with a lot of atrocities that happen in ME, particularly things that Cerbersus did or does, I do not think they're that far past the moral event horizon.

Modifié par In Exile, 25 août 2010 - 02:30 .

[krimesh]

Marta Rio wrote...

I'd say that there're arguments either way on Cerberus vs. Alliance, but not for blowing the thing sky high.

Are you saying that there are absolutely no reasons to blow the thing up, but only the question who should have it, if we could choose?

[jbblue05]

This Cerberus hate and slandering is so annoying and shows how naive some people are.

What makes the asari better then Cerberus they keep their hands clean while they let other species do their dirty work?

How are the Salarians any better, advancing the Krogan prematurely to make them do the  council's dirty work and then creating a bio-weapon that nearly destroyed the Krogan

The Turians attacking humans who didn't know council law and what about the turians wanting to organize full-scale war to knock humans back intoo their own system and into the stone age  again?  What about their terrorist act against the Krogan nearly sterilizing the entire species?

The Krogans commiting genocide of the Rachni species with the council's approval? Then taking any colony they wanted and daring the Council to fight for them?

The Alliance forcing the batarians out of the Skyllian Verge? Their AI research on Sovereign and the Lunar VI Station going rogue? What about them sitting on their ass while tens of thousands of human colonists disappear without a trace?


When Sovereign's remains were on the Citadel the Council didn't disregard the technology as too dangerous and hurled into the sun they studied it and used it.  So what do you think they would do with the Collector base destroy it and see it as an abomination? Hell no! Shepard would have orders from the Citadel or Alliance to preserve it to see what technology it holds

Cerberus ultimate goal is for Humanity's advancement not to Hate Aliens Cerberus employs Zealots and people who aren't racist but want human advancement.

Cerberus sees the best of other species and strive for humanity to be like them

Asari are the best biotics in the galaxy they want humans to be just as powerful or better
Look at Jack at a young age her biotic powers rival 1000 year old Asari Matriarchs
Gillian at the age of 14 is able to unleash the most advanced biotic move a Singularity again rivals Asari Matriarchs

Turians are known for their military might Cerberus recognizes their prowess
Alliance work with Turians to create Nromandy SR1
Cerberus replicates SR1 and improves it.

Salarians have the most brilliant minds in the galaxy, what can Humanity learn from them?
TIM wanted you to have the best scientist in the galaxy not the best human scientist
Miranda envies Mordin's  time in STG and admires how intelligent they are.

Asari and Volus boasts the largest and most powerful economies why can't Humanity do the same?
Humanity has expanded faster then any other council race and have a rapidly expanding economy.

Quarians are tech junkies and amazing AI programmers, Humanity can do better right?
TIM is fascinated by the Geth and admires the Quarian achievement. Hence his huge bounty on an intact Geth
Project Overlord was to succeed where the Quarians couldn't and completely control the Geth.  David was a savant special it would be nearly impossible to find anyone who can control the Geth the way he can.

Mordin said without limitations their is no advancement culture declines. Cerberus knows Humanity  has its limitations and is trying to help it advance and is willing to take the risks.

What if Humaity never activated the Charon Relay, Udina never petitioned the Council to make Shepard a spectre, Ash/Kaiden never activated the beacon, Shepard disregarded his vision, Tali wasn't curious why Geth were out of Geth Space, Council never made Shepard a spectre, Anderson risked treason so Shepard could get to Ilos? What if Liara never went looking for Shepard's body, TIM thought it was unethical to resurrect Shepard, What if Shepard didn't work with Cerberus?

If it wasn't for these risks and curiosity the galaxy would all be Reaper chow.

I understand Paragons may see Cerberus as corrupt and unethical and want to purify and protect everybody and thing but the truth is if you destroy Cerberus the Alliance will pat you on the back and re-create Cerberus and give it a different name.
You can take a criminal off the street but 10 more would replace the criminal
You can take down a crime lord but someone just as bad or worse would takeover.

The Alliance and Cerberus is similar to the STG and League of One
The Asari didn't trust the League of One they thought they were corrupt and too dangerous so the Salarians paint the League of One as a rogue organization sending the "Good" organization STG to take them down. And as a sign of good intentions to join the Asari on the Council
Sounds familiar to the Alliance and and Cerberus the Alliance paints Cerberus a common enemy they and the Council can rally against 

[Count Viceroy]

jbblue05 wrote...

This Cerberus hate and slandering is so annoying and shows how naive some people are.

Can just as easily flip those around and claim cerberus supporters as naive, as there's plenty of stuff people gladly overlook on their end. The fact that the community is so divided proves this.

[krimesh]

jbblue05 wrote...

This Cerberus hate and slandering is so annoying and shows how naive some people are.

If I'd consider every injustice done onto me in my life, I could go on and hate everyone for the rest of it. Wouldn't get neither me nor anyone else anywhere good though.

Given some people's value systems - including mine - Cerberus is a threat, mostly because them acting on their believes blows my vision of the universe and vice versa. Don't see what that has anything to do with been naive.

Modifié par krimesh, 25 août 2010 - 05:02 .