49 réponses à ce sujet

[Guanxii]

Dear BioWare. About Feedback.

While I understand the importance of feedback from gaming publications I wan't to state the obvious here, game journalists are not final customers and aren't necessarily representative of your target demographic - review scores important as they are to piquing the interest of new customers aren't nearly as effective as word of mouth in terms of generating long-term sales, see Nintendo. Innovation drives word of mouth and gaming publications drive innovation right out of games. I think we'll all agree that Mass Effect 2 was a crowning achievement in the traditional areas and a testament to your overall development philosophy but in the rush to cater to conventional wisdom of the IGNs and the Game Informers, etc who grade your report card in the gaming sphere a lot of innovative yet flawed ideas in the original game were scrapped or stripped away removing a lot of the core of what made Mass Effect unique and separated it from it's competition in the gallery of "shooters" on game store shelves in the first place.

I may be going out on a limb here but many gaming journalists say dumb things, and make really dumb suggestions that are harmful and when you read such gems as "it's overly referential" in reference to the second instalment of an RPG-trilogy based around player choices (it's primary unique selling point) these people are even kind enough to identify themselves. In fact any such 'analysis' that attempts to apply conventional wisdom to original game design (blue ocean strategy) should be treated as void. If these people were truly visionaries they would be creating games and not (be) merely spectators.

If said journalist expresses distain or dislike for certain aspects or features of your game(s) understand that they don't necessarily dislike the general concept only the execution and don't pretend to speak for everyone… It's not a blanket open invitation to remove or "streamline" these features entirely in the way ME2 was handled … I'm sure that was not the recorded intent of ME1 reviewers in general. Felt like a bad case of baby and the bath water. For as much as Mass Effect 2 succeed it did so by not taking as many risks and playing it safe and focusing mainly on it's strengths at the expense of other areas and ended up feeling far too constrained and contained in the larger sense whereas in the past this was clearly the result of one's reach exceeding ones grasp and being overly ambitious… I can't help but feel Mass Effect is drifting further and further away from the original concept which fans fell in love with. Please don't make the same mistake again with ME3 when it comes to sifting through Mass Effect 2 reviews.

Edit: Besides interrupts, I find it hard to name any instances original pieces of game design concepts in Mass Effect 2 that weren't present or adapted from other games including the original. I suppose this is the likely consequence of taking advice from people who don't have original ideas.


My $0.02

Modifié par Guanxii, 21 août 2010 - 11:00 .

[Gibb_Garrus]

i agree, one of the major reviews of me 2 said the the one con of me 2 was it was overly referential. WTF? If anything they need more references.



If bioware take criticism like that to heart, me 3 will just be a standalone shooter

[abadomen]

Agreed

[Kriztaen]

If anything I felt the references needed to be expanded upon, e-mails and 10 second cameos are not all that great. Whoever complained it was *too referential* must have been someone unused to playing something other than standalone titles or RPG's and sequels in general.

[kukkjakana]

I have the same concern. I *raged* when I saw the "too referential". And I'm not even a hardcore rpg player



There was so much crying about the ME1 inventory and elevator rides that you overdid fixing them. Everyone who criticised the elevator rides are now in fact too embarrassed to admit that it was a pretty damn good idea compared to the out of the game, static loading screen.

The upgrading system was pretty bleak compared to the customization available in ME1. In ME1 I can understand that it was bit too much fiddling to do but that was mostly because the overflow of items. I really hope that you'll take a few steps back towards ME1 system in ME3.



I also hope you can bring back a little bit of the open world feel that the ME2 lacked.



Mehh...BW knows that the old fans are going to buy ME3 anyway, so they will probably continue going "mainstream" with ME, trying to bring in new players who don't know better

[Solaris Paradox]

True enough. I think it was Yahtzee who said of No More Heroes 2's lack of a hub world that sequels taking away rather than adding and refining wasn't his idea of progress (albeit he said this more colorfully). It's a true concept. The Mako, for example. The concept of going down to planets and using a vehicle to traverse the environment and explore wasn't an idea that needed to be thrown out; the problem wasn't that the Mako existed, the problem was that it handled worse than it could have and that the environments and objectives associated with it were just too simplistic, unvaried, and bland. The Hammerhead is the kind of experimentation that this concept deserved; seeing it relegated to bit-part DLC status is almost heartbreaking.

EDIT: ..."Too referential?"

...I can see some truth in that statement, although I doubt the intention of it matches this truth. Mass Effect 2 spends too much time *referencing* things and not enough time being truly affected by them. If that makes any sense.

...Let me clarify. The majority of the choices that affect ME2 do so by sending you an e-mail or by depositing a familiar NPC somewhere in the main area of Illium. This aspect is rather lazy. Yeah, it's cool to recieve a message from that hostage I saved in the Bring Down the Sky DLC, but I'd rather have encountered some tragic bloodbath or catastrophe caused by the Batarian terrorist that *I* chose to let escape in exchange for a chance to save that hostage. And that so many "references" appeared all at once in the same town for no particular reason, as if the game were bragging about its saved-game import feature and asking me for a cookie because this is all so very impressive...?

Modifié par Solaris Paradox, 21 août 2010 - 10:26 .

[Guanxii]

Solaris Paradox wrote...
 The Hammerhead is the kind of experimentation that this concept deserved; seeing it relegated to bit-part DLC status is almost heartbreaking.

Why thoughts exactly, experimentation. Besides interrupts, I find it hard to name any instances original pieces of game design concepts in Mass Effect 2 that weren't present or adapted from other games including the original. I suppose this is the likely consequence of taking advice from people who don't have original ideas.

Modifié par Guanxii, 21 août 2010 - 10:41 .

[Kriztaen]

kukkjakana wrote...

Everyone who criticised the elevator rides are now in fact too embarrassed to admit that it was a pretty damn good idea compared to the out of the game, static loading screen. 

QFT - I was pretty upset about BW actually giving into the people that whined about it.

Though to be honest as much as I liked the mod system in ME1 and wish it could make a comeback I would actually prefer keeping the Armor customization option and just enriching it with more options and making a few more "full" armors.

Modifié par Kriztaen, 21 août 2010 - 10:35 .

[bjdbwea]

I agree. Dear BioWare, please listen to the OP.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Listen to this guy, he knows what hes talking about.



Video game reviewers have a tendancy to blow smoke when it comes to big name, big budget releases. You might have a nice metacritic score chocked with spotless reviews, but most people reading them can see right through the marketing hyperbole. Its clear the video game journalists near completely failed to give any kind of worthwhile constructive criticism, so hopefully their reviews dont start forming the basis of a "what can we improve for ME3" template.

[Solaris Paradox]

'Tis true, 'tis true. Reviews of big-name titles do have a tendency to be pretty hollow. Heck, even when a big-name *bad* game comes out--see Sonic '06--professional reviewers don't seem to be very adept at saying why the games are so bad, sometimes...

[Kandid001]

Most gaming journalists are morons who want to turn the VG industry to "epic" interactive movies without challenge or ramifications to choices. Let's just hope that BioWare knows better than blindly following their dictation.

[The Interloper]

I do think the devs did a great job at correcting the errors in ME1. But yeah, they did overcorrect. Hopefully ME3 will be a cross between the previous titles.

[Solaris Paradox]

The Interloper wrote...

I do think the devs did a great job at correcting the errors in ME1. But yeah, they did overcorrect. Hopefully ME3 will be a cross between the previous titles.

This is a good thing to hope for. I enjoyed ME1's more open feel, but I also enjoy ME2's more streamlined gameplay experience. A happy medium that combines the virtues of both would be the best possible sequel.

[The Beatles]

I agree. Best post I've read in a while eh? Bump!

[Sidney]

ME2 only botched 2 things



1. Elevators are better than loading screens. I do not know why that was so hard for folks to figure out. You are going to get a loading screen so why not get one with some dialog and news.

2. Planet scanning which is hard to even fathom how that got past the "does this sound like fun" stage of development. One can only assume they assumed their hardcore OCD fanbase would love that crap based on their love of pointless inventory.



Other than that:

Inventory - Please all of you just go away who want that crappy inventory system back. It was awful, pointless and useless. Don't listen to the tiny core of fans who enjoy playing with this sort of junk. ME2's inventory system was a great mechanism to still find/buy new stuff w/o all the nonsense of vendor trash and omnigel. I got upgrades, I got customization without all the not-fun part of having to loot corpses and sell endless reams of the same lousy stuff.



The MAKO needed to go, planet exploration was a bore and a reminder of why that game mechanism died in BW games after BG1. The stuff between the stuff isn't all that interesting and since in most planets "the stuff" was one location and then a bunch of minerals to flag and probes to open it mean that there was really one place worth going.



The story in ME1 was a bit more compelling but I think the story structure in ME2 is a lot better just because it finally makes some sense of the element of time which was so lacking in really any other RPG.

[Kandid001]

Sidney wrote...

Planet scanning which is hard to even fathom how that got past the "does this sound like fun" stage of development. One can only assume they assumed their hardcore OCD fanbase would love that crap based on their love of pointless inventory.

wtfamireading.jpg

I totally despise planet scanning, and I wasn't the biggest fan of the bloated ME1 inventory, but if I had to make a choice between ME1's bloated inventory and ME2's non-existant inventory (which was "enriched" with a paid DLC, bloody hypocrites) I'd choose ME1's inventory.

[Solaris Paradox]

1. Elevators are better than loading screens. I do not know why that was so hard for folks to figure out. You are going to get a loading screen so why not get one with some dialog and news.

...The elevators took longer.

2. Planet scanning which is hard to even fathom how that got past the "does this sound like fun" stage of development. One can only assume they assumed their hardcore OCD fanbase would love that crap based on their love of pointless inventory.

*cringe*

Other than that:
Inventory - Please all of you just go away who want that crappy inventory system back. It was awful, pointless and useless. Don't listen to the tiny core of fans who enjoy playing with this sort of junk. ME2's inventory system was a great mechanism to still find/buy new stuff w/o all the nonsense of vendor trash and omnigel. I got upgrades, I got customization without all the not-fun part of having to loot corpses and sell endless reams of the same lousy stuff.

A bit of column A, a bit of column B, I think. I liked having customization items I could switch in and out of my weapons. Having to sort through sixteen different versions of each weapon, armor, and upgrade, however--useless. Exactly one of each weapon; each weapon has its drawbacks and advantages with no "this is the stronger, this is the weaker" element involved. Armor? Customizable a la ME2, but with more armor pieces and potential combinations. Having over 9000 items is unnecessary and just forces you to replace old, obsolete stuff with new, up-to-date stuff every mission or so, but having a healthy number of options and combinations to find, buy, and strategize with is never a bad thing.

The story in ME1 was a bit more compelling but I think the story structure in ME2 is a lot better just because it finally makes some sense of the element of time which was so lacking in really any other RPG.

...Not following...

[Sidney]

Solaris Paradox wrote...

The story in ME1 was a bit more compelling but I think the story structure in ME2 is a lot better just because it finally makes some sense of the element of time which was so lacking in really any other RPG.

...Not following...

Never liked this part of pretty much every RPG

Main Story: You are trying to do X - X is usally something HUGE. Stop machines from killing all life, stop gates to Oblivion from opening all over the countryside, stop a living evil god from ruining the world.

That all seems pretty important and yet in all the RPG's mentioned above you can piddle around with the "side quests" ina  way that makes no sense. Why would I take time out from stopping the Reapers to whack a criminal syndicate? Why would I divert from my stopping the Archdemon to search for a lost caravan? ME2 deals with that problem by having the "Cerebus is researching an answer" or  "Waiting for the next collector attack". You can spend time recovering crates of goods because, really, there's nothing much else you can be doing at that moment. I know it is a fraud of "time" and it is based on getting to point X in your sidekick quests but it creates the feel that you aren't just forgetting about saving the universe.

[The Interloper]

Sidney wrote...


Main Story: You are trying to do X

No ****.

I do wish that they integrated the sidequests better with the main campaign though.

[ArchDemonXIII]

  First off, at what point did BW state that the changes they made were due to game reviewers? That's a pretty big assumption.   A lot of the stuff that got changed was stuff players were complaining about.  

 The Mako: Well, this is what happens when you get overly dramatic. People didn't say "the Mako is kinda cool, but the physics are a bit wonky, which makes those sections a bit tedious", people said "the Mako sucks. I hate having to use it.." Well, a if it provokes that much of a negative reaction, the intelligent thing to do is remove it entirely. Why polish a turd? Wouldn't be the first case of a game that had hated mechanics, just to try to tweak them for a sequal, only to have them still be hated. Better to focus on the positive aspects.I think BW did it smart, they got rid of a hated section and tried to take baby steps by tying a new vehicle in DLC. Given the response, I wouldn't be too surprised if there were no vehicles in ME3 either. I Made a thread on ideas on how to improve the HH, and a large portion of the posters basically said "it sucks, it's not the Mako." Yea, that gives them something to work with.

 Elevators: No way around it, BW messed up on this one. The problem is, the average gamer knows jack about tech. If most people realized that the elevators/airlocks were obfuscating loading screens, then i think less people would've griped about it. They don't realize that you can't make loading times magically disappear. This is one area that I think BW should've been smart enough not to listen to their fans.

 Inventory: ME1's inventory was just bloated as all hell. While I think they should've retained things like Omni-tools, Biotic amps and weapon mods, getting to choose between crap assault rifle I-X or useful assault rifle I-X is nothing I miss. I put way more care in choosing my loadout in ME2 than I did n ME1. ME1, I generally knew what I wanted, most of the time was spent trying to acquire the item I needed rather than actually using it. I know some people love fiddling with spreadsheets because it makes them feel all brainy when they concoct some uber combo, but i'd rather concentrate on, y'know, actually playing the game and having fun. I'm not too dumb to use ME1's system, it just adds nothing for me. 

 Also, before anyone jumps on the "well, WE never complained about X", keep in mind, both games sold around 2 million units if I recall correctly. How many of  those people are on these forums? if there's less than a million ME players on here, you really can't use it as a microcosm for the people that actually play it. And the "loyal fan" argument is a crock of BS. I see people hating on BW al day because they cater to shooting fans with this series. I like Capcom fighting games. I hate RE games. When they make an RE game, I don't tell capcom they suck and have sold out. It's called diversification. A little money in their pockets gives them money to defray the cost of passion projects. Get over it.

My $0.02

[Kriztaen]

Solaris Paradox wrote...

-snip-

- I would still prefer the elevators and docking door/decontamination stuff for the sake of immersion. 3-4 extra seconds is not really complaint-worthy imo.

- Whoever thought planet scanning was fun...should not be in the part of the dev team that decides what is fun in their game.

- I liked the new inventory system but do wish we had a little more choice in armor pieces and wish we had a few full armor sets we can get in-game without having to buy them via DLC/collector's edition/preorder. But I also wish we had some sort of inventory system reintroduced for weapon/armor mods (ammo powers should be removed and changed back to mods. making them into powers actually feels a little bit like a lazy cop-out for class talents)

- The game still did not feel like there was a sense of urgency. It is only *after* a certain mission that you get a timer that says "do this as fast as possible or face the consequences" otherwise the rest of the time you can screw around all you want doing sidequests and stuff.

- Sense of urgency is not always fun, sometimes it feels almost like a timer from a good demo game. You have fun but you may only have fun to a certain period. Its one of the things I highly disliked in Fallout 1.


Edit: Just read ArchDemonXIII's post which literally came on a few seconds before I posted this one and....dude you totally get it. Pretty much everything you said there is like 99% how I feel about things. Glad someone is on the exact same page.

Modifié par Kriztaen, 21 août 2010 - 04:19 .

[Kandid001]

Kriztaen wrote...

- I would still prefer the elevators and docking door/decontamination stuff for the sake of immersion. 3-4 extra seconds is not really complaint-worthy imo.

- Whoever thought planet scanning was fun...should not be in the part of the dev team that decides what is fun in their game.

- I liked the new inventory system but do wish we had a little more choice in armor pieces and wish we had a few full armor sets we can get in-game without having to buy them via DLC/collector's edition/preorder. But I also wish we had some sort of inventory system reintroduced for weapon/armor mods (ammo powers should be removed and changed back to mods. making them into powers actually feels a little bit like a lazy cop-out for class talents)

- The game still did not feel like there was a sense of urgency. It is only *after* a certain mission that you get a timer that says "do this as fast as possible of face the consequences" otherwise the rest of the time you can screw around all you want doing sidequests and stuff.

- Sense of urgency is not always fun, sometimes it feels almost like a timer from a good demo game. You have fun but you may only have fun to a certain period. Its one of the things I highly disliked in Fallout 1.

You just saved me the trouble of typing a long post similar to this. Truer words have never been said.

[Solaris Paradox]

Kriztaen wrote...

- I would still prefer the elevators and docking door/decontamination stuff for the sake of immersion. 3-4 extra seconds is not really complaint-worthy imo.

This is true, but not many of the transitions in ME2 actually involved either of those two things. Most of the time it's actually a shuttle ride, car ride, or just a load time between rooms. And frankly going up and down an elevator on the Normandy gets really old, really fast.

- Whoever thought planet scanning was fun...should not be in the part of the dev team that decides what is fun in their game.

It's more or less the same kind of thing the Hacking and Bypass minigames stems from, actually--they wanted to make a more fitting minigame for the element-obtaining thing the first game started. The problem is, the system they came up with was too much of a time-waster.

- The game still did not feel like there was a sense of urgency. It is only *after* a certain mission that you get a timer that says "do this as fast as possible of face the consequences" otherwise the rest of the time you can screw around all you want doing sidequests and stuff.

I think that was the intention. As has been previously stated, it makes mucking around with sidequests less nonsensical, and given the emphasis on the loyalty missions, that's a good thing in this case.

[Kriztaen]

On a side note...I actually liked how they made the bypass/hacking minigames in ME2. I felt indifferent about ME1's quicktime version but after playing ME2's I have grown to dislike them on subsequent playthroughs.

QTE is something that outside of games made by the guys that did Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain...should be disposed of. ME2's bypass/hacking was well done in comparison, its just we could have likely done better with *less* so as not to get too sick of it.

I am of course talking about the Xbox 360 version. The PC version of hacking/bypass in ME1 were tolerable, but just as before, both games had far too much of both. Easily ignored/skipped, I understand. But still....

Modifié par Kriztaen, 21 août 2010 - 04:26 .